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New Point System?

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suckerforred

Chilla Wilson (44)
I think scoring as-is is fine. But still interested to see how it works out.

As Lee said anything that relies upon top tier refs stopping players cynically giving away penalties by issuing cards or penalty tries is already on shaky ground. Look at how much uproar there was in the WC when Rolland issues a red card according to the rules. There's more and more pressure on Refs not to issue cards in important games and spoil the spectacle but when there's cynical play NOT issuing a card is going to spoil the spectacle.

Some Refs hardly ever issue cards at all whereas others are card happy so it's easy for teams (not just Richie) to play the Ref. It's not a reason to NOT trial the scoring change more that the issuing of cards shouldn't be relied upon to level the playing field at the highest level.

One thing is clear the game needs more consistent refreeing at the top tier. But it's so hard to reach agreement in a discussion of 4 or 5 people on what is a good referee let alone in the game as a whole. As an example Nigel Owens in one of my favourite Refs. I love how he handles back chat from players and also his refing of the scrum (you'll often see him allowing an 8 or scrum-half to play the ball from the back of a colapsed scrum). One thing I don't agree with him on is the twitter stuff, but I believe all players and officials should be covered by a social media code. But others would see this as bad refing and say he's not actually refing the scrum.

It's just my opinion and probably a lot of people will disagree. But I think at the highest level instead of Refs being issued with edicts instructing them to interpret a law a certain way. The Refs should get together once a year. These should be all refs on the international panel plus a group of up and coming refs who'll be the core of the next generation of international refs. The IRB should set the agenda, based on the current hot topics, of what laws are to be discussed then agreement should be reached with the refs on consistent implementation of those laws. Also I still believe refs at WC and Lions tour should be based centrally and made to share rooms on a rotation similar to the lions to encourage refs to communicate with each other.

Get the refs seeing themselves as a team and refing more consistently then tackle what needs to be changed in the laws.

Agree with most of what you have to say here.

With regards to the Ref's coming together... is once a year often enough? I have always wondered how often reviews are conducted into the ref'ing of games, how is feed back provided in a timely manner on there (their) performance. With todays technology I would expect referees in each high level comp (talking Super Rugby type level) could review and discuss calls and games each week. As long as they don not change their mind each week how a law in going to be interpreted then it should only come to good.

Will be interesting to see what this trial does resolve though.
 
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spooony

Guest
Agree with most of what you have to say here.

With regards to the Ref's coming together... is once a year often enough? I have always wondered how often reviews are conducted into the ref'ing of games, how is feed back provided in a timely manner on there (their) performance. With todays technology I would expect referees in each high level comp (talking Super Rugby type level) could review and discuss calls and games each week. As long as they don not change their mind each week how a law in going to be interpreted then it should only come to good.

Will be interesting to see what this trial does resolve though.
North vs South refs. They been trying to get that dissolved since 1899. Northern refs looks hard to find a offense while Southern Hemisphere refs call it when they see it. They don't go out their way to find it. One end up being a ref breathing thru his whistle
 

Dan54

David Wilson (68)
Wouldn't be much of a penalty when the opposing team get penalize but they have the chance to get a scrum where they gave it away through negative play now won't it. We are trying to have less set pieces because in reality they are a big mess and the referees guess more than anything else when a scrum goes down.

They must change some of the penalties to free kicks which will work better then they cant kick at goal for it. Especially in the scrums where they do most of the guess work. Also consistency between the refs would be nice as you go over to the Northen Hemisphere same rules but they apply it differently? I thought its called Rugby Union?

Spoony, I guess my idea of suggesting this is to stop dropkicks being taken as a way of kicking ball dead without penalty as now, ie other team must kick from 22 instead of scrum as for a punt where ball is kicked dead, also think it will make everyone think twice about hit and miss kicks at goal from halfway, where if you miss once again you get ball kicked back from 22. If you chose to take kick at goal you have still had a chance to get 3 points, players still have option of kicking to touch and good chance of retaining ball, it same as when ref playing advantage, if player has a crack at dropkick, surely advantage shopuld be over, it's not meant to give you 2 attempts at goal is it?
 

darkhorse

Darby Loudon (17)
Brilliant idea. It may not work but I am keen to see it have a trial.

The thing I like about this is at the end of a day, it will increase teams willingness to go for a try. A try could be worth as much as 4 times a penalty goal. People who say a kicker will have more influence, are not discounting the less penalty kicks we will see. They will have just the same influence if not less and if there is any influence to be had they have earned it by scoring a try.

Sure there will be unintended consequences. There always is. Teams will probably try to infringe more than let a try in - but this is where the refs have to come down hard and issue more yellow cards. If the threat of a yellow card is there players may think twice and if they don't the attacking team will have legitimate compensation in the form of a card. Atm refs are scared to use cards for fear of ruining a game, but this fear ruins many games to come.
 
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spooony

Guest
Spoony, I guess my idea of suggesting this is to stop dropkicks being taken as a way of kicking ball dead without penalty as now, ie other team must kick from 22 instead of scrum as for a punt where ball is kicked dead, also think it will make everyone think twice about hit and miss kicks at goal from halfway, where if you miss once again you get ball kicked back from 22. If you chose to take kick at goal you have still had a chance to get 3 points, players still have option of kicking to touch and good chance of retaining ball, it same as when ref playing advantage, if player has a crack at dropkick, surely advantage shopuld be over, it's not meant to give you 2 attempts at goal is it?
You kick from the half way line its short the ball is still in play what then? Guys gets a break just over the halfway line he gets tackled. Penalty because their defense was in 6 an 7 sure lets give a penalty away as it will cost us maybe nothing or even a scrum were we played negatively. Its there to stop the teams playing negatively. I mean you can score no tries but pop 6 penalties over where the other guy scored two tries and lost. Does that mean they were better than you and you did not try to score? No. It can mean they were under pressure and they were forced into errors by giving away penalties.

So one can't assume removing or changing laws for penalties which was earned from loose play will let the teams score more tries. What are they trying to do the whole game? Every team try to score them. The other team try to stop you by any means necessary. Now that will even give more favor to defending team and players to stop plays via negative play. Thats what I think but everyone got his own opinion even the IRB
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Teams will probably try to infringe more than let a try in - but this is where the refs have to come down hard and issue more yellow cards.
darkhorse

It doesn't work in practice - or rather it hasn't worked in the past. I have addressed the matter of the cards in an earlier post on this thread. The referees have failed to follow earlier directives such as in the 2008 Super14 when the free kick ELV failed within a few weeks. It failed because the referees failed, in your words: "to come down hard and issue more yellow cards," yet they were instructed to do so by SANZAR.

Is it worthwhile to trial 4 years later, or more likely 5, once it gets going, another ELV in pro rugby, a points ELV, that relies on yellow cards to make it work? There is no reason to suppose that this lot of referees will be any different from the 2008 S14 refs. The clue is to look at how today's referees use yellow cards day to day. If anything they are more conservative now than they were then. There are a few, such as Frenchmen Garces and Poite, who would do as you would want them to, but not enough.

But Lee, the IRB should instruct unions to demote referees who don't follow their guidelines? I wrote that in 2007. It didn't work any better than getting referees to make sure the ball is fed into the scrum straight.

But surely it is worthwhile to trial a points change ELV and see if current pro referees can follow instructions better? Sure, one day, if enough stakeholders in the game think it's worthwhile, especially players past and present, not that I think there is anything wrong with the current points system. But I see more serious problems to attend to first, such as fixing up the scrum. We don't want a cocktail of ELVs as we had last time.
 
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spooony

Guest
Lee

The scrum they will never sort out. Because the IRB and they're scientist trying to take over 7000N of force and turn it into 0N in a instant with nothing budging.
 

Dan54

David Wilson (68)
You kick from the half way line its short the ball is still in play what then? Guys gets a break just over the halfway line he gets tackled. Penalty because their defense was in 6 an 7 sure lets give a penalty away as it will cost us maybe nothing or even a scrum were we played negatively. Its there to stop the teams playing negatively. I mean you can score no tries but pop 6 penalties over where the other guy scored two tries and lost. Does that mean they were better than you and you did not try to score? No. It can mean they were under pressure and they were forced into errors by giving away penalties.

So one can't assume removing or changing laws for penalties which was earned from loose play will let the teams score more tries. What are they trying to do the whole game? Every team try to score them. The other team try to stop you by any means necessary. Now that will even give more favor to defending team and players to stop plays via negative play. Thats what I think but everyone got his own opinion even the IRB
Not quite sure what you mean Spoony, but I admit to be quite happy leaving things the way they are re penalties ,but I really keen on changing rules to how I suggest for drop kick,I can't understand why you can dropkick a ball dead with no sanctions and not have same law as punt it is used as a easy way out for teams to often I believe.
 
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spooony

Guest
Not quite sure what you mean Spoony, but I admit to be quite happy leaving things the way they are re penalties ,but I really keen on changing rules to how I suggest for drop kick,I can't understand why you can dropkick a ball dead with no sanctions and not have same law as punt it is used as a easy way out for teams to often I believe.
To my understanding the other team needs to touch the ball first when its a dead ball like when you get a free kick.
 

darkhorse

Darby Loudon (17)
darkhorse

It doesn't work in practice - or rather it hasn't worked in the past. I have addressed the matter of the cards in an earlier post on this thread. The referees have failed to follow earlier directives such as in the 2008 Super14 when the free kick ELV failed within a few weeks. It failed because the referees failed, in your words: "to come down hard and issue more yellow cards," yet they were instructed to do so by SANZAR.

Is it worthwhile to trial 4 years later, or more likely 5, once it gets going, another ELV in pro rugby, a points ELV, that relies on yellow cards to make it work? There is no reason to suppose that this lot of referees will be any different from the 2008 S14 refs. The clue is to look at how today's referees use yellow cards day to day. If anything they are more conservative now than they were then. There are a few, such as Frenchmen Garces and Poite, who would do as you would want them to, but not enough.

But Lee, the IRB should instruct unions to demote referees who don't follow their guidelines? I wrote that in 2007. It didn't work any better than getting referees to make sure the ball is fed into the scrum straight.

But surely it is worthwhile to trial a points change ELV and see if current pro referees can follow instructions better? Sure, one day, if enough stakeholders in the game think it's worthwhile, especially players past and present, not that I think there is anything wrong with the current points system. But I see more serious problems to attend to first, such as fixing up the scrum. We don't want a cocktail of ELVs as we had last time.


Yeah I do agree in general Lee. I guess it's a case of don't fix it unless it's broke, although some will argue over constitutes 'broke'. If we are continuously fiddling with the game we will end up ostracizing it's current followers when things don't work out as planned - they never do - rather than attracting new ones. Change, especially when it is a radical as the New Points System, is generally received best when it is slowly implemented. The full implications of the ELV's were never really understood before they were rushed through to professional rugby and this did the game more harm than good. I guess a more restrained approach is in order.

I guess my excitement about the NPS comes from the feeling I have that rugby has so much potential and is currently falling just short of it. Nothing can compete with a good game of rugby, even when you lose, but IMO we only get to see a good game about every 3 games. Well, to be fair, last year was a bit of a purple patch for rugby and we got to see a good game a lot more often - but then again that was largely due to the New Law Interpretations and that really is a form of tinkering with the rules so I guess my argument has come full circle and I don't really know what to think.
 
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spooony

Guest
The sad thing in rugby these days is why the laws get changed. Something happens somewhere in a game then a union put in a request to make it a ruling and it changes. But for years it was not needed. Example was the French Wales game where Michalak kicked the ball into touch from the kick off as time was up and the welsh just scored before that to get into striking distance. But time was up and he kicked it into touch from the kick off. Wales went and complain and it was changed. Which is absolutely absurd.

The Six nations even the scrums had stats like 46 percent of them were reset to the Super 15's 18 percent. Just because the Northern Hemisphere referees don't follow the procedure correct when engaging the scrums. In the Super 15 they set the marks make sure the hookers are in place then they give a clear call of Crouch Touch Pause Engage. Northern Hemisphere they do it quicker and it seems to be one of the problems.

Standing up in the front row is not an infringement; pushing an opponent up in the front row is an infringement.
Wheeling is legal; the whipwheel is illegal. The whipwheel involves pulling and the loosehead of the wheeling team usually moves out from the scrum, giving his tighthead opponent nothing to push on. The loosehead them moves as quickly as he can.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Good posts.

More important than changing laws for points or having ELVs is making sure that the law crackdown at the breakdown is maintained at all costs i.e. making sure that existing laws are observed. We can never take our eyes off that one.

Next to that the lawmakers and referee gurus should focus on the significant, and the most significant current problem is the scrummage; not points or anything else. Just about everybody agrees with that, though they disagree as to whether any law change is needed or just better training and refereeing.

We have a thread called Scrum Talk and several of us have all offered our 5 cents worth there; I'm probably up to $1.75.

My proposal in that thread was to simply give a clarification of the law that says: "Front rows should not form at a distance from opponents and rush against them." The clarification should point out that rushing from any distance, even one of 100cms, is prohibited.

That should get rid of the power hit and the consequent abomination of too many collapsing scrums and the plethora of early engage calls. But I digress.


[PS - any discussion on the scrum should be made in the Scrum Talk thread.]
 
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spooony

Guest
LG

Regarding to the tackle situation would you believe it that the law is basically the same since rugby started being a amateur sport and right thru up until now? You are correct that the referee should look at it as it has not been applied during the years. Main reason is the referee to let the game flow in the interests of entertainment. It may be that referees shy away from being a spoiler and such if they apply the laws.But the ball is becoming slower and slower. You will see with the good referees the ball will recycle quicker than others. We ask why? Simply because the good referee gets to the break down quicker then retreats. If ball is slow then the referee must seriously realize something is wrong. But they let it continue in most occasions.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Regarding to the tackle situation would you believe it that the law is basically the same since rugby started being a amateur sport and right thru up until now?
Great question, which I have answered a few times without being asked.

Not counting the early days of the sport, the big change came when the tackled ball law was dispensed with in 1958. Before then you could not pick the ball up from the ground after a tackle without playing it with your foot first.

Therefore the ball stayed on the ground a lot. If a ball runner was stopped upright he had to pass the ball immediately or smuggle it to a team mate to do the same, or ground it. Mauls were unlawful in those days (if you were stopped standing up it was deemed a tackle and the ball had to be passed or grounded immediately).

Forwards were taught how to dribble the loose ball at their feet and there were many dribbling forward rushes in games with 2 or 3 men playing as a unit. The great All Black hooker, Ron Hemi was a master at it.

Ball at the feet was executed in a tight way too. In the 1940s and 1950s the great Otago coach, Vic Kavanagh Jr (who, like the equally great Carwyn James, was never to coach his national team) formulated techniques based on either the forwards, bound together, taking the ball up the field with the ball at their feet, like a movable scrum, or deliberately setting up a series of quick rucks to create an offside line and delivering quick ball before opponents realigned. He was decades before his time.

This was called 'rucking' in NZ though the moving upfield version of it was referred to as a 'loose scrummage' elsewhere in the world. [Now 'rucking' refers to when you shoe somebody.] But I digress. 1958 was the big change and it sped the game up, and gave birth to the modern maul since being stopped upright was no longer deemed to be a tackle.


The second big change came as you mentioned: as the game sped up referees seemed to compete with each other to speed it up more, especially in Oz and NZ. European refs were not so gung ho and talked about maintaining the fabric of the game. We laughed at them, but found out later they were in the right.

In the 60s already you could see the attacking scrummie being able to put his hands into the ruck to get the ball out: something always penalised earlier. Later other attackers also had hands in. The old practice of heeling ruck ball out with feet turned into one of getting ball out with hands. Once that was established players from both sides started going in with hands first. They had started to use hands more anyway because the ball was no longer 'poison' to pick up after a tackle.

Naturally hands first led to players from both sides arriving in a position that was likely to see them leave their feet, and they did.

20 years after the tackled ball law was dispensed with the game had changed completely, some good, some bad, but 20 years after that there was a whole lot more bad, and it got baddest of all when the pro era started. Things muddled along until 2010 when the crackdown on laws in the tackle/ruck area was implemented. Using hands became risky and the old, old practice of counter-rucking, an occasional happening before, was reborn as a major tool of the game.

The crackdown should have happened 30 years earlier, then revisited every now and then.

There will always be good referees and bad ones, just as there are such players. But if there is anything I have learned about them since I was a young bloke it is: if there are too many referees who take the easy option in an effort to speed the game up they, or their sons or grandsons who copy them, will eventually slow the game down.
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spooony

Guest
Wasn't asking lol just said Its hard to believe that it has not change much. The referee's speed to the break down like a flanker is important. Because if he can do that quickly he can police and then retreat where the game will be flowing or shall I say a fair break down has taken place. Mr Morrison was one who got there quick. Even when he was a touch judge you'll see him speeding behind a runaway winger like he's gaining on him lol. Andre Watson was another one.
 

suckerforred

Chilla Wilson (44)
LG - In your opinion, is the game now to fast for the refs to consistantly adjudicate the breakdown? I have been thinking this for a couple of years now with my evidence being the travisty the breakdown has become at times.
 

nomis

Herbert Moran (7)
I'm not quite convinced that reducing penalties to 2 points and increasing tries to a potential 8 (with a successful conversion) will lead to a huge amount of extra infringements. I use to think it would, but I'm not so sure anymore. For instance, if a defending team illegally infringes to stop the attacking team from scoring a try, what will the attacking team do? I would think that they would rather kick for the corner, go for a line-out, and try to score a potential 8 points, rather than take the 2.

So I like to think that these laws being trialled will actually lead to teams trying to score more tries - which is their intended purpose. If teams try and score more tries by kicking for a line-out, you would think that percentage-wise, more tries will be scored (assuming defending teams illegally infringe more). Therefore, it could actually have the opposite effect: teams may illegally infringe less, and try to stop tries in a way more in line with the rules.
 
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