New Point System?

[PaarlBok]

Our Varsity Cup is the trial bunny for rugby these days. A new point system will be trialed in 2012.

Sport24

Exciting new Varsity Cup rules2011-11-17 19:
Cape Town - The Varsity Cup Rugby competition will - once again - lend itself to experimentation, with the importance of tries being the major focus ahead of the 2012 tournaments.

Varsity Cup Rugby, which now consists of the FNB Varsity Cup presented by Steinhoff International, the Varsity Shield, the Varsity Young Guns and the Steinhoff Koshuisrugby Championships (four 'properties' in all), will be trialing a new points-scoring system in 2012 - an experiment which could revolutionalise rugby union.

Thanks to a special dispensation from the International Rugby Board, the Varsity Cup Rugby organisers have changed around the value of points for the four 2012 Varsity Cup Rugby competitions - conversions will be worth three points and penalties and drop-goals will be worth just two points.

This means that four penalties or four drop-goals will equal to one converted try on the scoreboard, putting the emphasis back on tries to win matches... and, ultimately, trophies.

Varsity Cup Managing Director Duitser Bosman explained on varsitycup.co.za: "Our intention with this trial is to cement a culture of try-scoring in the various Varsity Cup Rugby properties. After all, rugby is about entertainment... and tries are entertaining.

"At the same time, however, the importance of the kicker must always be respected and that's why we have increased the value of the conversion - giving teams something of a 'bonus' to aim towards."

The Varsity Cup, which first began in 2008, is no stranger to experimentation - both in terms of law changes and off-field fun - and Bosman added: "The Varsity Cup has added tremendous value to South African rugby and we've always been up for experimenting - as we did with the white cards and the ELVs.

South African Referees Manager André Watson expressed his delight at this latest trial - despite being aware of the hard work that lay ahead for everyone involved.

"We have a great relationship with the Varsity Cup when it comes to trialing and experimenting with good ideas," said Watson, "but, as usual, this trial involves plenty of hard work. We will be keeping dedicated statistics and monitor the results as the tournament goes along.

"There is a possibility that we could pay a price somewhere along the line in a bid to create more tries, but we will be having a briefing with the various Varsity Cup Rugby coaches and referees in late January and we will have to up-skill everyone and we aware of the potential pitfalls.

"The key, however, is that you'll never know something until you try it. One would think this experiment would definitely lead to more tries... but you'd also imagine that a few more penalties will be conceded on purpose... the exciting part is that we'll soon see for ourselves how this works out."

Ikey Tigers head coach Kevin Foote, whose team will be defending their title come 2012, is also excited as this new change could benefit the Capetonians who are renowned for their try-scoring exploits.

"Everyone loves to see loads of tries scored," said Foote, "and UCT have always been a team keen on giving the ball air and (thereby) reaping the rewards; rewards which are now that much greater with a possible eight points up for grabs (as a converted try).

"Of course, winning remains our only priority and we need to ensure we retain our discipline on both attack and defence throughout - no matter how many points are at stake."

Whats your thoughts?

(Looking forward to our Varsity Cup starting in less then a weeks time, this year they have an U20 competition included and surely becoming the next best factory for SA young rugby talent)

 

[Sully]

I think making converted tries worth more is good. And making drop goals less is good I'm not so sure about the penalties though. Please let us know how it goes.

 

[qwerty51]

I don't like making conversions worth more, it may reduce penalty goals and drop goals but it still means an excellent goal kicker is too influential imo.

I still reckon Steyn and now Jantjes are more important players than Cooper/Barnes/any Aus 10.

 

[spooony]

I think a conversion should stay 2 points. Make a try 8 points rather.
But its stupid really. Why every time we have seasons of excellent running rugby they go change the laws to stop that. any remember 2000 to around 2003 period?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I don't like making conversions worth more, it may reduce penalty goals and drop goals but it still means an excellent goal kicker is too influential imo.

I still reckon Steyn and now Jantjes are more important players than Cooper/Barnes/any Aus 10.

Well, they (SA) still have to cross the stripe to get the kick at goal and those 2 are really long range penalty weapons: I havent noticed that either has a noticeably higher success rate with conversions than any of our blokes (except to the extent that our blokes are so fickle)

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Think scoring is fine - otherwise the amount of negative play when in the red zone will increase marketedly.

 

[qwerty51]

Think scoring is fine - otherwise the amount of negative play when in the red zone will increase marketedly.

Easily combated by using cards more

 

[Bowside]

I think penalties should be worth 3 and conversions and drop goals 2.

Cleaning up the ruck will lead to more trys. More points for tries will just encourage teams to infringe to stop they being scored.

 

[MrTimms]

Easily combated by using cards more

Like Communism, great in theory.

 

[Slim 293]

Like Communism, great in theory.

1000% agreed.

The current points system is fine.

 

[spooony]

Like Communism, great in theory.

Just ask China

 

[Lee Grant]

This trial in the RSA Varsity matches was mentioned some time ago and my thoughts now are no different.

Think scoring is fine - otherwise the amount of negative play when in the red zone will increase marketedly.

If a converted try is going to be worth 5 + 3 = 8 points and a penalty kick 2 points, a converted try will be worth 4 times a penalty goal value. Presently it is worth 2.3 times the amount of a penalty goal.

What will players do defending their goal line? Easy - if they want to play the following week they will obey the instructions of their coach: "Give up 2 to save 5 or 8."

Easily combated by using cards more

This is the automatic rebuttal to objections against decreasing the value of penalty goals. It was the same reaction I came up with when folks objected to the 2007 free kick ELV whereby most transgressions except offside and foul play were to be free kicks. Players would be cynical said they. Refs would card transgressors until they changed said I.

I was right: the amateur referees in the 2007 Shute Shield gave out cards like Las Vegas dealers. Players complied. Later, in the semi-pro ARC, with a higher grade of referees, they were less ready to card but still fairly gung ho. I did a bit of crowing on rugby forums.

Then came the 2008 Super14. The professional referees were groaningly conservative. They even added another layer of warnings: "If you don't stop we will have to go to penalties for repeated infringements." Yellow cards? Give me a break. That ELV died and folks in the NH said: "I told you so." They had, too.

If professional referees since 2007 had shown any greater interest in giving cards for cynical or foul play I would moderate my view, but they seem to be getting worse. When Rolland gave a red card to Warburton in a RWC Semi Final he was castigated as though he were the guilty party, not young Sam, a praiseworthy player who made a mistake.

Easily combated by using cards more? Sounds good, smells good, but this is closer to the mark:

Like Communism, great in theory.

So it shouldn't be trialled? Don't agree. By all means give it a trial but don't rely on the results of the Varsity matches to mean anything more than what we saw in the Shute Shield in 2007 with the free kick ELV. We have to see it tested in professional games in the regular season.

But Lee, the professional referees should be instructed to issue yellow cards by the IRB? Give me a break. These are the same fellows who have ignored the straight feed into the scrum law for decades despite being instructed to enforce it several times.

.​

 

[qwerty51]

...and that's why you will win the self-titled GAGR award again.

 

[spooony]

This trial in the RSA Varsity matches was mentioned some time ago and my thoughts now are no different.



If a converted try is going to be worth 5 + 3 = 8 points and a penalty kick 2 points, a converted try will be worth 4 times a penalty goal value. Presently it is worth 2.3 times the amount of a penalty goal.

What will players do defending their goal line? Easy - if they want to play the following week they will obey the instructions of their coach: "Give up 2 to save 5 or 8."

Penalty try - Problem solved

 

[Bardon]

I think scoring as-is is fine. But still interested to see how it works out.

As Lee said anything that relies upon top tier refs stopping players cynically giving away penalties by issuing cards or penalty tries is already on shaky ground. Look at how much uproar there was in the WC when Rolland issues a red card according to the rules. There's more and more pressure on Refs not to issue cards in important games and spoil the spectacle but when there's cynical play NOT issuing a card is going to spoil the spectacle.

Some Refs hardly ever issue cards at all whereas others are card happy so it's easy for teams (not just Richie) to play the Ref. It's not a reason to NOT trial the scoring change more that the issuing of cards shouldn't be relied upon to level the playing field at the highest level.

One thing is clear the game needs more consistent refreeing at the top tier. But it's so hard to reach agreement in a discussion of 4 or 5 people on what is a good referee let alone in the game as a whole. As an example Nigel Owens in one of my favourite Refs. I love how he handles back chat from players and also his refing of the scrum (you'll often see him allowing an 8 or scrum-half to play the ball from the back of a colapsed scrum). One thing I don't agree with him on is the twitter stuff, but I believe all players and officials should be covered by a social media code. But others would see this as bad refing and say he's not actually refing the scrum.

It's just my opinion and probably a lot of people will disagree. But I think at the highest level instead of Refs being issued with edicts instructing them to interpret a law a certain way. The Refs should get together once a year. These should be all refs on the international panel plus a group of up and coming refs who'll be the core of the next generation of international refs. The IRB should set the agenda, based on the current hot topics, of what laws are to be discussed then agreement should be reached with the refs on consistent implementation of those laws. Also I still believe refs at WC and Lions tour should be based centrally and made to share rooms on a rotation similar to the lions to encourage refs to communicate with each other.

Get the refs seeing themselves as a team and refing more consistently then tackle what needs to be changed in the laws.

 

[qwerty51]

I don't think the Rolland card is a good example, it was a red card. Very different to a yellow card and I was completely for Sam getting a yellow but not a red. I absolutely hate red cards and they should seldom ever been used, only in the case of two yellows or 2 'dangerous' offences. One offence should not warrant a red, use a suspension system. Good example was Heaslip kneeing McCaw, why give him a red? Terrible offence but a yellow should suffice and then a hefty suspension - was the referee worried about players taking action into their own hands when he returned? I doubt it. But Ireland were completely out of the match after it. They ruin matches and one issued in the 75th minute should not carry the same weight as one issued after 15 minutes. Use a yellow and suspension.

 

[Dan54]

I stick with what I have said for a fair while now, and on here too, so sorry to bore you. Scoring fine like it is, still think penalties and drop kicks taken from outside 22 that miss should result in scrum from where kick was taken the same as kick in general play, may stop number of hit and miss penalties and droppis that are take now.

 

[EVERYFWDTHINKTHEYREA6OR7]

Leave it the way it is, please leave the rules of the game etc the same for at least a few years.

Those who have played for the last 15 years know what i am talking about when i mention how frustrating the rule changes have been. For Pete's sake just leave it alone for a bit.

 

[MrTimms]

I just want to clarify, when I said:

Like Communism, great in theory.

I left a quote in from qwerty51 saying

Easily combated by using cards more

My point was not that we shouldn't trial the point system, but that the use of cards to combat professional fouls is great in theory, ie. it doesn't work, the refs just don't have the minerals to pull cards like that.

Following on that chain of thought, if teams don't want opposition kickers to dictate the game, don't infringe. My only real problem with the trial is that like some players perform well at a super level, but can't higher, what if this trial works at a lower level but doesn't higher? and since when were tries the only good thing in a game, go watch league if that is all you want.

 

[spooony]

I stick with what I have said for a fair while now, and on here too, so sorry to bore you. Scoring fine like it is, still think penalties and drop kicks taken from outside 22 that miss should result in scrum from where kick was taken the same as kick in general play, may stop number of hit and miss penalties and droppis that are take now.

Wouldn't be much of a penalty when the opposing team get penalize but they have the chance to get a scrum where they gave it away through negative play now won't it. We are trying to have less set pieces because in reality they are a big mess and the referees guess more than anything else when a scrum goes down.

They must change some of the penalties to free kicks which will work better then they cant kick at goal for it. Especially in the scrums where they do most of the guess work. Also consistency between the refs would be nice as you go over to the Northen Hemisphere same rules but they apply it differently? I thought its called Rugby Union?