Eyes and Ears
Bob Davidson (42)
Since the ARU took over the tournament in 2001, there have been about a dozen including Barnes, TPN, Beale, Cooper, Horne etc.
National U/16 Championships 2011
- Thread starter Lee Grant
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Since the ARU took over the tournament in 2001, there have been about a dozen including Barnes, TPN, Beale, Cooper, Horne etc.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
A few more than that: TPN, Kimlin, Horwill, Johansson, Barnes, Cowan, S & A Fainga'a,Turner, Cooper, Genia, Beale, Pocock, Daley, McCabe, McCalman, Horne, Davies, Simmons, Slipper, JOC (James O'Connor).
PS - The star of the 2011 U/16 tournament, Jack Tuttle, got a run from the bench for Oz A Schools tonight. He never got the ball in an Oz back move which was rare in the game, but he did a couple of ball and all tackles, even dragging the guys down on top of him.
Newbie
Bill McLean (32)
Lee,
It looks like you came charging in with your 'Cavalry' on this one ... lmao ... and you didnt even spare the prisoners!!!
Regards,
Newbie
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
20?
2 a year: is that an indication that the selections at this level are dodgy or that there are still many changes ahead for a 16 y.o. Boy? What percentage are PIs?
My understanding is that TPN at this age was a back rower: what does he show at 16 as a backrower that sees him hooking for Oz?
It would be interesting to analyze/compare NZ u 16/schools players who became AbS and see where they were playing at 16.... Carter was a 1/2 - though I saw CBH claiming him as a 1st 5 the other day. Macaw was always a back rower. I gather Pocock was a centre - too slow now or too big (lmao)?
2 a year: is that an indication that the selections at this level are dodgy or that there are still many changes ahead for a 16 y.o. Boy? What percentage are PIs?
My understanding is that TPN at this age was a back rower: what does he show at 16 as a backrower that sees him hooking for Oz?
It would be interesting to analyze/compare NZ u 16/schools players who became AbS and see where they were playing at 16.... Carter was a 1/2 - though I saw CBH claiming him as a 1st 5 the other day. Macaw was always a back rower. I gather Pocock was a centre - too slow now or too big (lmao)?
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
TPN was a short-arse 6 or 8 for Oz Schools and was never going to be lineout option as a senior player; so when he got an HPU contract with the Brumbies they cross-trained him at hooker and prop. He soon dropped the prop caper after playing there a few times for his club.
Don't get the ferals stirred up about the selection process IS - you won't stop them.
I wouldn't get too analytical or propound too many theories about why so few lads from the Oz U/16 tournament, or indeed from the Opens tournament eventually get into the Wallabies. It just confirms what anybody who watches schools rugby knows: that the older the lads get the more sure you are about how they are going to be as senior players.
The number of new Wallabies from Schools Opens tournaments is higher: close to 4 per year on average. You'd expect it to be like that because some lads mature later and the best of them will join the couple of U/16 stars later for the Wobs. There is no doubt either that a few who should have been picked in U/16s, weren't, but were recognised better the following year or the year after.
Even at the time they walk out of the school gates for the last time you don't have much of an idea if they are going to be Wallabies unless they are star backs and once in a blue moon, a star forward like Pocock (who incidentally played 7 for Qld and Oz Schools.)
Also, as was mentioned in posts earlier in this thread: many of the elite U/16 players and a majority of the backs play rugby league as senior players. Posters informed me that 5 of the 7 backs I picked in the All Star team from the tournament were already signed by NRL clubs.
You can judge them much better in Colts, the first step into the real world of rugby. Many good schools players get a shot of cruel reality then, yet others, like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), take off when they become school leavers.
A couple of future Wallabies a year at the U/16 level is unexceptionable, I would say.
Don't get the ferals stirred up about the selection process IS - you won't stop them.
I wouldn't get too analytical or propound too many theories about why so few lads from the Oz U/16 tournament, or indeed from the Opens tournament eventually get into the Wallabies. It just confirms what anybody who watches schools rugby knows: that the older the lads get the more sure you are about how they are going to be as senior players.
The number of new Wallabies from Schools Opens tournaments is higher: close to 4 per year on average. You'd expect it to be like that because some lads mature later and the best of them will join the couple of U/16 stars later for the Wobs. There is no doubt either that a few who should have been picked in U/16s, weren't, but were recognised better the following year or the year after.
Even at the time they walk out of the school gates for the last time you don't have much of an idea if they are going to be Wallabies unless they are star backs and once in a blue moon, a star forward like Pocock (who incidentally played 7 for Qld and Oz Schools.)
Also, as was mentioned in posts earlier in this thread: many of the elite U/16 players and a majority of the backs play rugby league as senior players. Posters informed me that 5 of the 7 backs I picked in the All Star team from the tournament were already signed by NRL clubs.
You can judge them much better in Colts, the first step into the real world of rugby. Many good schools players get a shot of cruel reality then, yet others, like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), take off when they become school leavers.
A couple of future Wallabies a year at the U/16 level is unexceptionable, I would say.
Ironingman
Allen Oxlade (6)
Given that the first of the crop we are discussing was 2001 it would probably be reasonable to assume that the ARU would not have expected a ROI until about 2006 at the earliest. So the yearly average might be closer to 3 or 4.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I deliberately avoided talking about returns because I know there are many many reasons why players don't go on or don't get picked for under age teams.
Is it still the case that the vast majority of Oz schools go through colts? It's 25 years since I coached colts and I don't watch it now but that's good to know.
Was Pocock ever a centre?
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Yes he played 12 for Churchie but I don't know that he played there in his final year. Maybe Qld folks could advise on that.
Ironingman
You are right - the players I mentioned played over 6 years starting in 2001 and ending in ended in 2006 so IS should have divided by 6 to get an average of over 3.
Ironingman
You are right - the players I mentioned played over 6 years starting in 2001 and ending in ended in 2006 so IS should have divided by 6 to get an average of over 3.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
With some to emerge, perhaps
Dark Shark
Alex Ross (28)
I believe a better measure is looking at how many from the team named for this week came through the U16 programme. By a rough count it would be around 15 players out of 22. When you discount those that were too old (sharpe) or overseas origin (is Vickerman?) then the return is far better.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Spot on Dark Shark
In the RWC squad the following played in the U/16 tournament from 2001 on:
TPN, Horwill, Barnes, S & A Fainga'a, Cooper, Genia, Beale, Pocock, McCabe, McCalman, Horne, Simmons, Slipper, JOC (James O'Connor) add on Turner, if you like.
Depending on how one rates Horne that's 13 of them in the best 22 who played U/16's. Then you have to take into account some from 2006 who are yet to be Wallalbies and then think of who would have played U/16s before 2001 if data was available then. You would probably have to wait until all players at the Oz U16 tournament in 2006 retired, or at least had past their Wallaby use-by date, before you could a proper computation of how many in the 6 years from 2001 to 2006 (inclusive) eventually made the Wallaby team, by which time nobody would really care.
That wouldn't reconcile with anything because you would have to figure out the one offs and also the multiple years that some players play with the Wallabies.
A better rule of thumb for the present would to follow Dark Shark: count the 13 above and add on older guys who you think would have been in an U/16 tournament in 2001 had they been younger. Out of Alexander, Elsom, Moore and maybe Sharpe and excluding others for one reason or another, you could say that another 2 would have made U/16s leaving 15 out of 22.
By doing that year after year with injuries more or less a constant you could come up with a moving average of about ⅔ of the team who played in the U/16s tournament.
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In the RWC squad the following played in the U/16 tournament from 2001 on:
TPN, Horwill, Barnes, S & A Fainga'a, Cooper, Genia, Beale, Pocock, McCabe, McCalman, Horne, Simmons, Slipper, JOC (James O'Connor) add on Turner, if you like.
Depending on how one rates Horne that's 13 of them in the best 22 who played U/16's. Then you have to take into account some from 2006 who are yet to be Wallalbies and then think of who would have played U/16s before 2001 if data was available then. You would probably have to wait until all players at the Oz U16 tournament in 2006 retired, or at least had past their Wallaby use-by date, before you could a proper computation of how many in the 6 years from 2001 to 2006 (inclusive) eventually made the Wallaby team, by which time nobody would really care.
That wouldn't reconcile with anything because you would have to figure out the one offs and also the multiple years that some players play with the Wallabies.
A better rule of thumb for the present would to follow Dark Shark: count the 13 above and add on older guys who you think would have been in an U/16 tournament in 2001 had they been younger. Out of Alexander, Elsom, Moore and maybe Sharpe and excluding others for one reason or another, you could say that another 2 would have made U/16s leaving 15 out of 22.
By doing that year after year with injuries more or less a constant you could come up with a moving average of about ⅔ of the team who played in the U/16s tournament.
.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Which would then be a very reliable indicator of how good the coaching is at under age levels....my thesis is that our basic skills are less than they could be.
As a rugby nation we love the ace in the hole miracle ball player: we'd be better served between world cups if we worried about fundamentals and structure from age 5 ;-)
As a rugby nation we love the ace in the hole miracle ball player: we'd be better served between world cups if we worried about fundamentals and structure from age 5 ;-)
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
As many of us have said at some length over the years.
Young Kiwi boys always look like better footie players when they play Oz Schools and the England Schools team, whose players were all aligned with a pro rugby club, looked like young academy pros. They were years ahead of our lads as footie players, literally, not to mention the benefits of their S & C training. This wasn't evident the last time they toured.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
H
hatman
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Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Spot on.
I thought I read a post somewhere saying the Oz schools NZ schools game was on foxtel- search your guide
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I thought I read a post somewhere saying the Oz schools NZ schools game was on foxtel- search your guide
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
H
hatman
Guest
Checked Fox - no mention about the schoolboy game. The wankers on the Board of ARU couldn't give a toss about the schoolboy game - no corporate boxes at Knox where the game is played. Only officials that will be there in numbers will be the rugby league scouts. Good luck to them.
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