National Club Competition

[The Gunsmith]

Thought I would bring up this old chessnut again.

Would love to know anyones thoughts on a National Competition that uses current Club sides..unlike the ARC which created teams with no current suporter base.

May look like this;

6 Teams - (Grade and Colts)
Top 2 Sydney Teams
Top 2 QLD Teams
Top NSW Country Team
Top QLD Country Team

12 Week Round Robin - Home and Away. To be played at the conclusion of the Shute Shield.
One Semi Final Weekend and a Final.

14 weeks in Total

Final to be played at alternating venues in either Sydney or QLD.....

 

[James Buchanan]

I think the idea has merit, but it is hardly 'national'. Nor does it do what the ARC was doing, which is expose players to a higher level of play. They're still pretty much playing with their club sides and getting a similar experience to what they get there.

 

[en_force_er]

I've heard a few models, 12 weeks is far too long and only NSW and Qld is certainly far from a national comp.

I think for inspiration you should look to perhaps a combination of the British and Irish Cup, the Vodacom Cup and AFL's new Foxtel Cup.

 

[Empire]

National club comp, without Victoria or the ACT? Righto. Lost me there.

I think there is merit in a championship between the top teams from across the club competition - especially those areas that have s15 sides.

Either that, or city/regional rep sides picked at the end of the club season to play in a competition?

 

[Bowside]

2 month international break during next years super rugby is a decent time frame I think. Maybe some HEC style comp, best of the best from each state union.

I think the ARU needs to focus development on the state club comps a bit more before they start looking at stuff like this. Making sure each team has a decent coach, decent gym and good training programs should come first. Not to mention expanding them a bit so they represent more of the state rather than just being city focused....

 

[Ash]

I think it's awful. Why?

Because 2 Sydney teams means that you will likely get Sydney Uni (very inner west) and an eastern team. Hardly representative of Sydney. Not sure on Brisbane, but the same problems will exist.

What about all the other top players who are not in the top 2 teams? What a waste.

Furthermore, players who want to play in that comp will gravitate to the top two teams, meaning the weaker teams will struggle even more.

I know that club stalwarts hated the ARC because it saw the loss of their club team, but many of the above reasons are why a national model just can't take off by selecting two teams from Sydney whilst still trying to keep the same teams playing in a local comp.

 

[Jets]

Why have country teams in the comp when their skill level will be lower than that of club teams that miss out? Also 14 weeks will be to long for the comp as the teams will change each year due to the qualifying process and they will not build up a following.

I think it would be better run by having a number of bye's (4) in the club season and the top 2 teams from Brisbane, Sydney and Canberra from the previous season involved.
You play each team once and the top 2 make the final which is in the city of the top team. Venues being Ballymore, Viking Park or (not sure of suitable Sydney venue).
The result from the local comp would count for that oposition so you would play 4 games plus a GF if you qualify. eg. Brothers and West qualify for Brisbane. If they play each other in round 4 of the Brisbane comp it goes towards the national comp results.
This could be built on with a Melbourne and Perth team added in the future.
By having an off season to prepare the club can leverage sponsorship opportunities to maximise their earnings.

Just an idea but I think it is much more cost effective and more likely to go ahead.
I thought about it being a preseason comp but the top teams would miss to many players.

 

[The Gunsmith]

Wow what a response...I knew it was a hot topic. The comments are all very valid.

Agreed the comp may be to long...perhaps the bye round option that Jets suggested could work. Similar to the Champions League in Soccer?

In no way am I suggesting that a national comp should exclude VIC, ACT or Peth for that matter, It was mearly a starting point for an idea. I think rep teams are a good idea but that is what the ARC had and it didnt seam to work. The reason the NPC works is that the teams are from that region and they have an emotionl hook to the area.

Im more about giving Rugby a more national identity at the Club level. For far to long the ARU has been top heavy in its Rugby format. Club sides nationally are left mostly to defend for themselves when it comes to players and running costs, the brand of Australian Rugby goes much deeper than a Test Match at Suncorp, a S15 game at Visy park or a Sevens tournament in Adelaide.

I think a national comp (in some format) is the first piece in making the "entry" level of our "amature" rugby better.

 

[en_force_er]

Well my idea, which I think about a fair bit and is far from perfect (but as realistic as it's going to get) is:

Teams:
4x Teams from NSW
3x Teams from Qld

• These teams would be the top ranked teams from the Hospital Cup and Shute Shield that have deemed themselves financially able to meet travel requirements.

3x Victorian, WA and ACT Rep sides

• The Vic, WA and ACT sides cannot include any “out of state” semi-pro academy players in their sides (they must play for their club in NSW and Qld or the Baba sides). They can however include the full time squad members of their Super side if they aren't on international duty and the team medical staff has cleared them. Like in the Super rugby bye weeks I don't imagine TOO many players would be medically cleared for the tournament.
• Concessions to play for their club for clubmen like Weeks (Syd Uni) and Lipman (Warringah) would be made on a case by case basis.

2x Barbarian sides from NSW and Qld, featuring the best plays from NSW and Qld that do not qualify for the tournement. This could potentially including Country players

• Yes, the Baba sides are not an ideal set-up but it is necessary to make sure all of Australia's best talent is on display. It's important for this to genuinely be the next level everyone must be given a crack regardless of club.
• These teams do not have to be called Barbarian sides but I think it's silly to call them "Sydney" or "Brisbane" or anything of the like when that isn't what they would be.

Details:

• This competition would be divided up into 3 pools of 4 teams. To play each other once.
  
• It would take place during the international break window in the middle of the Super rugby season.
  
• The competition would take 5 weeks, 3 weeks of competition and then 2 of finals with the 3 pool winners and next best of any pool qualifying.
  
• The NSW and Qld Comps would cease in this 5 week periods and a lightening premiership or something of the like would take its place.
  
• Vic, WA and ACT would only get 1 home game a season each to keen this league as centralised as possible and they would never be in the same pool.
  
• To make this competition truly national hopefully Central Coast, Newcastle-Hunter and Illawarra would be added into the Shute Shield in the same way Sunshine and Gold Coast play in the Hospital Cup. They would be represented by a single Grade and Colts side as to not decimate their local comps.

 

[en_force_er]

In no way am I suggesting that a national comp should exclude VIC, ACT or Peth for that matter, It was mearly a starting point for an idea. I think rep teams are a good idea but that is what the ARC had and it didnt seam to work. The reason the NPC works is that the teams are from that region and they have an emotionl hook to the area.

The ARC mostly just planted Sydney players into Melbourne and that's why it failed here.

Also, a professional province based comp and a semi-pro club based comp are pretty different. Australian lower tier rugby is a club based system and rightfully needs to be treated as such.

 

[Bruce Ross]

A thoughtful contribution, en_force_er. I totally concur with your point that "Australian lower tier rugby is a club based system and rightfully needs to be treated as such."

 

[Jets]

I think that we can find holes in any idea. The important thing in my eyes is to put up an alternative option so that we move forward and actually get this up and running.

It is better to have a flawed comp running than sitting around waiting for the perfect idea to be born.

If a national comp is started it would be close to being certain that Sydney Uni would always be a Sydney team and I think Sunnybank would make sure that they were always one of the Brisbane teams.

 

[The Mayor of Perth]

The ARC mostly just planted Sydney players into Melbourne and that's why it failed here.

There were more teams than just Melbourne! You read this thread and end up with the ARC. Which was designed as a bridge to Super Rugby and the players thought it was a bloody good idea even if the Sydney club stalwarts didn't. If netball can make a trans-Tasman comp work why can't rugby do the same (expanded NPC if you like)? The Kiwis will be bleeding from RWC next year and in need of a way to help pay for NPC.

 

[en_force_er]

Well my idea, which I think about a fair bit and is far from perfect (but as realistic as it's going to get) is:

Teams:
4x Teams from NSW
3x Teams from Qld

• These teams would be the top ranked teams from the Hospital Cup and Shute Shield that have deemed themselves financially able to meet travel requirements.

3x Victorian, WA and ACT Rep sides

• The Vic, WA and ACT sides cannot include any “out of state” semi-pro academy players in their sides (they must play for their club in NSW and Qld or the Baba sides). They can however include the full time squad members of their Super side if they aren't on international duty and the team medical staff has cleared them. Like in the Super rugby bye weeks I don't imagine TOO many players would be medically cleared for the tournament.
• Concessions to play for their club for clubmen like Weeks (Syd Uni) and Lipman (Warringah) would be made on a case by case basis.

2x Barbarian sides from NSW and Qld, featuring the best plays from NSW and Qld that do not qualify for the tournement. This could potentially including Country players

• Yes, the Baba sides are not an ideal set-up but it is necessary to make sure all of Australia's best talent is on display. It's important for this to genuinely be the next level everyone must be given a crack regardless of club.
• These teams do not have to be called Barbarian sides but I think it's silly to call them "Sydney" or "Brisbane" or anything of the like when that isn't what they would be.

Details:

• This competition would be divided up into 3 pools of 4 teams. To play each other once.
  
• It would take place during the international break window in the middle of the Super rugby season.
  
• The competition would take 5 weeks, 3 weeks of competition and then 2 of finals with the 3 pool winners and next best of any pool qualifying.
  
• The NSW and Qld Comps would cease in this 5 week periods and a lightening premiership or something of the like would take its place.
  
• Vic, WA and ACT would only get 1 home game a season each to keen this league as centralised as possible and they would never be in the same pool.
  
• To make this competition truly national hopefully Central Coast, Newcastle-Hunter and Illawarra would be added into the Shute Shield in the same way Sunshine and Gold Coast play in the Hospital Cup. They would be represented by a single Grade and Colts side as to not decimate their local comps.

I'm reposting this as I spend about 15 mins mulling over it and I think it got lost because I posted again right after.

 

[Sully]

Great Idea Enforcer!

My thinking is on a lot smaller scale! We already have a club championship game between the Qld and NSW winners every year. Why not expand on that slowly.
Add the grand finalist. Then Victoria's, ACT's and WA's finalists. Teams are rewarded fror performing in their competitions by being drafted into the big show! not the same teams every year.

 

[Bowside]

I dont think you can just manufacture teams and expect people to support them.

HEC style comp run over the 2 month break with 3 or 4 seeded pools of 4 is how I would go about it. Some of the games could be curtain raisers for the home test matches during the 4 Nations. As sully said, start small and grow it, the biggest priority is getting it on TV and in the papers.

 

[wamberal]

Won't happen, can't happen. If the three or four big Sydney clubs don't want something to happen, it won't (see Bruce's Sydney University-centric post above).


The ARC produced great rugby. Draw a line through that - would a new national club comp produce anything like the quality of the ARC? Quick answer - no it won't.


There is no market for national club rugby. Sad, but true. Crowds of 200 at ARC matches kind of proves that, doesn't it?

 

[Bowside]

Won't happen, can't happen. If the three or four big Sydney clubs don't want something to happen, it won't (see Bruce's Sydney University-centric post above).


The ARC produced great rugby. Draw a line through that - would a new national club comp produce anything like the quality of the ARC? Quick answer - no it won't.


There is no market for national club rugby. Sad, but true. Crowds of 200 at ARC matches kind of proves that, doesn't it?

In terms of quality it wont be the same, but cost will be less. And although you make a cynical point about club rugby, I actually think the big clubs would be more than up for a pissing contest of sorts like the one I suggested. Especially if it gets on TV as it means they attract more sponsors.

And your point about support is also misguided, as club teams already have long established support bases, as opposed to being manufactured brands that don't mean anything to people.

 

[Slim 293]

Great Idea Enforcer!

My thinking is on a lot smaller scale! We already have a club championship game between the Qld and NSW winners every year. Why not expand on that slowly.
Add the grand finalist. Then Victoria's, ACT's and WA's finalists. Teams are rewarded fror performing in their competitions by being drafted into the big show! not the same teams every year.

Last year Tuggeranong Vikings played Queensland Uni in a friendly... and flogged them...

Queenslanders will say that Uni were missing several players... but so were Vikings... you can't really take too much out of the result...

Regardless, the two top Canberra teams (generally Vikings and Queanbeyan) will be up there with the best of QLD and NSW...

 

[Bruce Ross]

Won't happen, can't happen. If the three or four big Sydney clubs don't want something to happen, it won't (see Bruce's Sydney University-centric post above).

A thoughtful contribution, en_force_er. I totally concur with your point that "Australian lower tier rugby is a club based system and rightfully needs to be treated as such."

Huh?