Melbourne Rebels 2011
- Thread starter Lee Grant
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Good morning from the wonderful city of Bath. Just found this site and look forward to hearing about the game down south.
We are so pleased that STEVE MEEHAN brought in two fantastic players this season in JULIAN SALVI and MATT CARRERO who have been our star players. I have it on great authority that both have settled in so well that they want to extend their contracts and stay to play for this great club. Mrs Salvi, to be, has been over and cannot wait to get back here after the wedding.
Joking apart, we have had a terrible first half to the season but it is all changing now.
The rumour mill here has Phil Vickery coming to join Melbourne as well as our young full back Nick Abbendanon, who needs a change of scene to boost his game. Also heard that Michael Lipman may be signing once his drugs ban is over. Now he would be a much better bet for you than Julian.
Interesting that John Connolly is involved with you. He did well for us but what a limited 10 man game plan. He took us to a premiership final at Twickenham which we lost because when we couldn't beat up Wasps up front we didn't have plan B out wide despite having great backs.
We are so pleased that STEVE MEEHAN brought in two fantastic players this season in JULIAN SALVI and MATT CARRERO who have been our star players. I have it on great authority that both have settled in so well that they want to extend their contracts and stay to play for this great club. Mrs Salvi, to be, has been over and cannot wait to get back here after the wedding.
Joking apart, we have had a terrible first half to the season but it is all changing now.
The rumour mill here has Phil Vickery coming to join Melbourne as well as our young full back Nick Abbendanon, who needs a change of scene to boost his game. Also heard that Michael Lipman may be signing once his drugs ban is over. Now he would be a much better bet for you than Julian.
Interesting that John Connolly is involved with you. He did well for us but what a limited 10 man game plan. He took us to a premiership final at Twickenham which we lost because when we couldn't beat up Wasps up front we didn't have plan B out wide despite having great backs.
Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
One player we may very likely see in Melbourne next year is Tom Carter, Player-of-the-Match in Damien Hill's most recent Sydney Premiership Grand Final win. He comes off contract at the end of the season.
Carter has no particular reason to re-sign with the 'Tahs as the present coaches obviously don't rate him. By contrast he played every game in his rookie year in 2008 at 12, and was valued very highly by his coaches. Head coach Ewen McKenzie described him as "the unsung hero" of the side, stating that "his real added value for us has been in the unrewarded parts of the game like chasing kicks."
Noting that "the kick is only as good as the chase," McKenzie recalled a critical late season game against the Sharks:
"A lot of the time we were able to catch the Sharks behind their forward pack and that took their forwards out of the game, and that's the efforts of Tom Carter.
"If you watch, he doesn't miss a beat on that."
McKenzie observed that Carter was "a really good worker for us in the midfield and people aren't going to talk about him as anything other than that really hard-nosed (type of player).
"But that's what we want. We actually base a game around what he does for us."
The 2008 Waratahs backs coach, Todd Louden, was equally complimentary:
"Tommy can play both a passing game and a block-busting running game, and is capable of adapting and improving his game to any team play or style. He is constantly reinventing himself around what is best for the team. He is a pleasure to coach as it is like working with a fresh canvas each season."
Carter, the most effective tackling back in Australia rugby, would be a great signing for the new franchise if McKenzie doesn't snap him up first for Queensland. Another quite possible scenario is that it won't be the player but the coaching staff who depart the 'Tahs at the end of this season.
Carter has no particular reason to re-sign with the 'Tahs as the present coaches obviously don't rate him. By contrast he played every game in his rookie year in 2008 at 12, and was valued very highly by his coaches. Head coach Ewen McKenzie described him as "the unsung hero" of the side, stating that "his real added value for us has been in the unrewarded parts of the game like chasing kicks."
Noting that "the kick is only as good as the chase," McKenzie recalled a critical late season game against the Sharks:
"A lot of the time we were able to catch the Sharks behind their forward pack and that took their forwards out of the game, and that's the efforts of Tom Carter.
"If you watch, he doesn't miss a beat on that."
McKenzie observed that Carter was "a really good worker for us in the midfield and people aren't going to talk about him as anything other than that really hard-nosed (type of player).
"But that's what we want. We actually base a game around what he does for us."
The 2008 Waratahs backs coach, Todd Louden, was equally complimentary:
"Tommy can play both a passing game and a block-busting running game, and is capable of adapting and improving his game to any team play or style. He is constantly reinventing himself around what is best for the team. He is a pleasure to coach as it is like working with a fresh canvas each season."
Carter, the most effective tackling back in Australia rugby, would be a great signing for the new franchise if McKenzie doesn't snap him up first for Queensland. Another quite possible scenario is that it won't be the player but the coaching staff who depart the 'Tahs at the end of this season.
Jeez Bruce are you his manager? I rate him as a hard man in the centres, but nothing more. I highly doubt the merit of his passing game, and despite being the 'most effective tackling back in Australia' I would much rather have Beale or Horne or Barnes in the centres than old TC.
Saying that, I do think he would be a reasonable signing as you get exactly what it says on the label. He wouldn't set the world on fire but would put in a solid season.
Saying that, I do think he would be a reasonable signing as you get exactly what it says on the label. He wouldn't set the world on fire but would put in a solid season.
Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
barbarian said:
What, precisely, are you objecting to in my post, barbarian? There are only two partial sentences in it that represent my opinion:
"One player we may very likely see in Melbourne next year is Tom Carter ..." and
"Carter ... would be a great signing for the new franchise ..."
The rest of the post consists of either matters of fact - "Player-of-the-Match in Damien Hill's most recent Sydney Premiership Grand Final win" and "the most effective tackling back in Australia rugby" - or direct quotations from his 2008 Waratah coaches, both of whom are highly regarded and successful. Oops, maybe I'm contravening the site protocol in expressing an opinion about them also.
This is by no means the first time I have been criticised in this fashion - "are you his manager?" - on this site for expressing an opinion about a coach or player. That is why I now try to be extremely guarded in what I say and how I phrase it.
barbarian, if you or other senior members of this community feel that my scribblings go beyond acceptable comment, I will graciously withdraw and turn my attention elsewhere. Perhaps I have misunderstood the purpose of the site.
Ash
Michael Lynagh (62)
Bruce, personally I think that Tom Carter's position at the Super 14 level is more 13, and he certainly also did well at 13 for Sydney Uni when he played there. He also did very well at 12 for them at the club level too.
At Super 14 level, he did chase kicks and tackle very well. But there's more required from a 12 than that at S14 level, such as some combination of vision, creativity, ability to beat a man, or running different lines. Tom Carter didn't have that at the Super 14 level, and struggled in attack despite his excellent kick chase and tackling. You might blame it on the coaches and their game plan (the same ones you are saying were praising him), but if he was as good as I think you imply then he would've stood out by his playmaking or devastating running as well. He didn't. I guess we disagree on Carter's ability as a Super 14 12. I guess my description of Tom Carter, which you might see as giving him a disservice, would be a quicker version of Nathan Grey without the play making ability.
That being said, I agree with you that he'd make a great pick up for Melbourne. I'd play him as a 13 though, where him limitations in terms of vision at the Super 14 are not a problem, and he might do better with a bit more space. I suspect that the much smaller amount of space in the Super 14 (as opposed to Sydney club rugby) is one of the reasons why he struggled in attack.
At Super 14 level, he did chase kicks and tackle very well. But there's more required from a 12 than that at S14 level, such as some combination of vision, creativity, ability to beat a man, or running different lines. Tom Carter didn't have that at the Super 14 level, and struggled in attack despite his excellent kick chase and tackling. You might blame it on the coaches and their game plan (the same ones you are saying were praising him), but if he was as good as I think you imply then he would've stood out by his playmaking or devastating running as well. He didn't. I guess we disagree on Carter's ability as a Super 14 12. I guess my description of Tom Carter, which you might see as giving him a disservice, would be a quicker version of Nathan Grey without the play making ability.
That being said, I agree with you that he'd make a great pick up for Melbourne. I'd play him as a 13 though, where him limitations in terms of vision at the Super 14 are not a problem, and he might do better with a bit more space. I suspect that the much smaller amount of space in the Super 14 (as opposed to Sydney club rugby) is one of the reasons why he struggled in attack.
Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
Ash, one thing that's worth taking into account is that 2008 was Tom Carter's rookie year at the provincial level. Despite being on the Waratahs' books for a number of years he had not previously had one minute of game time. In 2008, largely due I think to outstanding trial form and Todd Louden becoming backs coach, he was selected at 12 and held his position there throughout the entire Super 14 competition.
Obviously, as evidenced by the quotes above, his coaches felt he did a good job. I personally do not believe that in that year he "struggled in attack." Something that was not publicised was the fact that for most of that competition he played with serious groin injuries, and had surgery to both groins almost immediately after the Final. Because of this he was unavailable to be considered for Australia A selection and also missed the rest of the Club rugby season.
During the 2008 season both Ewen McKenzie and Todd Louden were passed over for the Head Coach position which was eventually given to Chris Hickey. It would be fascinating to read the full story of how that came about but I think that some people have an interest in ensuring that it never emerges.
From the start of the 2009 season, it was clear that under Hickey and new backs coach Scott Wisemantel, Carter was only being picked on sufferance. The standard backline move involved him being cut out and there were even set moves used which involved Carter being positioned on the wing with the ball invariably never reaching him.
Most of the ball he received in the early games came when Kurtley Beale had run out of options and belatedly off-loaded to his 12 who had little option other than to take the tackle.
Ash, I don't really know whether he is better suited at 12 or 13. Coming through in Colts and Second Grade he played 13, but when he got to the top Grade he had to defer to the incumbent outside centre, Luke Inman, and so he played inside him.
What I do believe very strongly is that the evolution of the game will increasingly see both centre positions typically being filled by big, powerful men; players with the physical attributes of Tom Carter.
Obviously, as evidenced by the quotes above, his coaches felt he did a good job. I personally do not believe that in that year he "struggled in attack." Something that was not publicised was the fact that for most of that competition he played with serious groin injuries, and had surgery to both groins almost immediately after the Final. Because of this he was unavailable to be considered for Australia A selection and also missed the rest of the Club rugby season.
During the 2008 season both Ewen McKenzie and Todd Louden were passed over for the Head Coach position which was eventually given to Chris Hickey. It would be fascinating to read the full story of how that came about but I think that some people have an interest in ensuring that it never emerges.
From the start of the 2009 season, it was clear that under Hickey and new backs coach Scott Wisemantel, Carter was only being picked on sufferance. The standard backline move involved him being cut out and there were even set moves used which involved Carter being positioned on the wing with the ball invariably never reaching him.
Most of the ball he received in the early games came when Kurtley Beale had run out of options and belatedly off-loaded to his 12 who had little option other than to take the tackle.
Ash, I don't really know whether he is better suited at 12 or 13. Coming through in Colts and Second Grade he played 13, but when he got to the top Grade he had to defer to the incumbent outside centre, Luke Inman, and so he played inside him.
What I do believe very strongly is that the evolution of the game will increasingly see both centre positions typically being filled by big, powerful men; players with the physical attributes of Tom Carter.
Bruce Ross said:
Not objecting to anything mate, just having a friendly dig. Your post simply resembled a newspaper puff-piece, and knowing your Sydney Uni links I thought I would stick the boot in a little, no more than I would do when any Queenslander starts talking up Rodney Blake or Spook starts wanking over George Smith.
It wasn't by any means unacceptable, just overly fawning. TC is a decent player, and the majority of my post concerned him and his abilities. I'd sugest you stop fretting about throwaway jokes and just talk rugby, because you seem to know a bit (although that probably puts you in a minority around here
)
waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
keep up the good fight bruce, tom carter will be involved in a bidding war between the tahs, reds, melbourne and force at the end of this year, and he deserves it
Newb
Trevor Allan (34)
where's WJ? wait till he gets a wiff of this :fishing
edit: you're a quick one WJ, just beat me to it!
if anything maybe TC is the kind of player that excels when the style of play fits him, but has a harder time adapting when it doesn't. nothing wrong in that, and a fresh start where he fits in better (perhaps melbourne) could be just the thing he needs.
regardless, it doesn't seem as though he'll be getting a lot of use with the tahs. unless there are a string of injuries that depleat the centres (i'm looking at YOU, berrick barnes).
:fishingedit: you're a quick one WJ, just beat me to it!
if anything maybe TC is the kind of player that excels when the style of play fits him, but has a harder time adapting when it doesn't. nothing wrong in that, and a fresh start where he fits in better (perhaps melbourne) could be just the thing he needs.
regardless, it doesn't seem as though he'll be getting a lot of use with the tahs. unless there are a string of injuries that depleat the centres (i'm looking at YOU, berrick barnes).
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Ash
Agree with most of that - in fact he was one of the 2 no 12s. I nominated for the Melbourne team at the start of this thread. Dunno about him as a 13 at the Super level as there is a lot of defensive reading to be done in that spot which is why so many of our Wallabies have had trouble there on their own account, and in combination with the guy next door.
Dunno that he won't be any good there either.
Yeah, although his play in the Shute Shield is terrific he's too much steady Eddie in the S14 IMO. Although he has some admirable traits as BR mentioned, I reckon that the Tahs backline needs him not to be there - for a while at least.
I want to see if his absence makes a difference. I have a theory that he acted as a firewall to the ball going out and when Hangers was 10 and Beale 12 in South Africa for 3 games there were times when I thought: why weren't these blokes playing together earlier in the season? The ball was used.
I think that the affable Carter would be a more valuable player playing in Europe and especially in the GP. He'd fit right in with a team like Saracens. If he goes to Melbourne I'll wish him well, so long as he doesn't take good mate Ducker Calwell with him.
And not to the point, but the 3rd musketeer from Young, Tim Davidson, would be good value in Melbourne also. He's another magnificent club player who has been marginalised with 4 teams in Oz but may nail down something with a 5th.
Agree with most of that - in fact he was one of the 2 no 12s. I nominated for the Melbourne team at the start of this thread. Dunno about him as a 13 at the Super level as there is a lot of defensive reading to be done in that spot which is why so many of our Wallabies have had trouble there on their own account, and in combination with the guy next door.
Dunno that he won't be any good there either.
Yeah, although his play in the Shute Shield is terrific he's too much steady Eddie in the S14 IMO. Although he has some admirable traits as BR mentioned, I reckon that the Tahs backline needs him not to be there - for a while at least.
I want to see if his absence makes a difference. I have a theory that he acted as a firewall to the ball going out and when Hangers was 10 and Beale 12 in South Africa for 3 games there were times when I thought: why weren't these blokes playing together earlier in the season? The ball was used.
I think that the affable Carter would be a more valuable player playing in Europe and especially in the GP. He'd fit right in with a team like Saracens. If he goes to Melbourne I'll wish him well, so long as he doesn't take good mate Ducker Calwell with him.
And not to the point, but the 3rd musketeer from Young, Tim Davidson, would be good value in Melbourne also. He's another magnificent club player who has been marginalised with 4 teams in Oz but may nail down something with a 5th.
Biffo
Ken Catchpole (46)
There is much suggestion throughout the board on who might play for the Rebels. There seems to be an inclination to believe that whoever is off contract or can not get a gig elsewhere will go to Melbourne. There seems also to be some view that the Rebels will take whomever they can get.
I caution against such thinking. Rod Macqueen will have very clear ideas on the type of player he wants and those who don't fit his criteria will not get near the Rebels. Macqueen will be aiming very high. He will not just accept what is easily available. He will be ambitious and will try to assemble a squad capable of being fully competitive from the outset.
I caution against such thinking. Rod Macqueen will have very clear ideas on the type of player he wants and those who don't fit his criteria will not get near the Rebels. Macqueen will be aiming very high. He will not just accept what is easily available. He will be ambitious and will try to assemble a squad capable of being fully competitive from the outset.
waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
i dont think Rod will have that much of an option, when it comes down to it he may get the first I0 players he wants, hemay get the first I5 but to fill a squad of thirty you need some good solid week in week out guys and tom carter for all the hate he gets is never going to let a team mate down on any rugby field and would be a great matchday 22 player for any franchise
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