LOCKED: Time to Sack Deans?

[Gagger]

Maybe they should have been playing club rugby Reddy!, but they weren't. Deans changed it - you need to give him credit if you think it's a positive move.

Your argument is that anything positive Deans has done, should have been done anyway. It's pointless.

Losing six on the bounce however, obviously doesn't deserve credit!

 

[AussieDominance]

Fainga'a is too small so you will take Frier instead. Did you not contradict yourself?

As for Anthony, you're not Jeremy Paul in disguise are you?

No I didn't I just made use of what available options we had I would trust Freier's set peice of Fainga'a's anyday. You look at the Super 14 sides and not much is around. Whittaker is horrible at the lineout, Charles is very mobile and reasonably built set peice is average but passable. Fitzpatrick is probably the most promising of the lot though, reasonably mobile, well built and a reasonable scrummager/lineout thrower. Huia Edmonds is a waste of space.

 

[AussieDominance]

Adam Freir is a club level hooker at best. Every time he has pulled on a Wallaby jumper he has been rag-dolled by legitimate test players at every turn.

I would tend to say that Freier had a better time in that gold jumper when he played than Saia Fainga'a currently has.

 

[AussieDominance]

Rugby is a team sport. If the way he plays fits in with the team and players around him, he is as good as they come. I would never call him one dimensional though. I have watched him closely this year for the Reds and he has shown enough to say that he is a good decision maker, runs great lines, can kick if he needs to or sees an opportunity, is fast, is a straight runner and one of the best defenders in world rugby. Anyway he is not in the team so the point is moot for this weekend at least.

Yes, I would tend to agree with you if you want Fainga'a to be useful you may as well play Matt Dunning on the wing for all I care. Quade Cooper makes Fainga'a look good by having a passing game that hit's blokes out in front on the chest wider than 2nd reciever.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

My biggest concerns are at lock, centre and fullback where I don't see where our 'world class' player is going to come from. Other than that we are relying (as always) on getting our no.1 team on the park for big games. We don't, and never have had the depth to beat the likes of NZ without our top players.

G'day folks. New member here and already liking what I'm seeing.

I echo the concerns about lock and centre in particular. We need some mongrel in the second row and I'm not seeing where its coming from right now. I'm a real fan of Rob Horne, but he needs to start showing something soonish. He's got several games against two of the best in the business coming up and he will be tested big time. I personally like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13, but it does leave open the question of fullback. Cam Shepherd would be my choice there, but that may be my pro-Force bias

 

[waratahjesus]

as someone that didnt want deans here, i dont feel i should ad to this conversation but i would love to hear what the deans backers would like from him over his next 18 months or so till the end of his contract. Is there a point or a goal or is the blooding of 1,241.3 (the .3 is brown) players in the interest of development enough that even failing to make the semis doesnt matter cos he would have left aussie rugby in a better position?

not that long ago the ARU brought in high performance managers to promote and scout talent and make sure the systems in place were running correctly if im not wrong, if your saying the coaches like connolly (who was told he was a stop gap from day one and virtually had no backing compared to deans can do whatever the f he likes and we wont sack him board members of today) are responsable for the mess that the wallabies are in, what the fudge are nucifora and co actually doing.

and just on the sevens crap, there going to play it at the olympics, thats why there is more funding and a greater emphasis, not cos of robbie deans, he was told to talk it up by the ARU, its called PR and is easily googled if you know how.

 

[Slim 293]

Yes, I would tend to agree with you if you want Fainga'a to be useful you may as well play Matt Dunning on the wing for all I care. Quade Cooper makes Fainga'a look good by having a passing game that hit's blokes out in front on the chest wider than 2nd reciever.

What a rubbish post.... Fainga'a has shown promise for years ever since being one of the stars for the winning U19 Australian squad...

Thankfully Link finally gave him the chance this year to shine in the Super 14 and he's done just that...

Now, I'm not saying he should be starting but he deserves to be in the mix...

 

[Langthorne]

I find that when a team is winning no one really cares who the assistants are, whether the squad are playing for their clubs, whether young players are being blooded etc. It is only when the results are poor that these things come under the spotlight.

As for what side of the fence I am on, I'm a bit old fashioned when it comes to evaluating sporting success - I am interested in games won (see http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/deans-to-date-the-case-for-and-against/).

Even if the ARU gets to the stage of wanting to get rid of Deans there is a big further issue to consider:

Is there anyone else available? There is no point getting rid of a contracted coach if there is not an appropriate replacement available.

 

[louie]

RH - you certainly love having it both ways don't you?

Selection apparently is such a baseline pre-requisite that Deans deserves no credit, but if he picks the 'wrong guys' he's rubbish.

None of the performing players he's developed are his successes - they were all done by Phil Mooney, but the ones you perceive as not performing so well need to be chalked against Deans.

You've previously railed about how much time a head coach has on his hands, that he should also be responsible for development pathways, but above you state that Deans should get no credit for the U20s or 7s successes.

Deans is by no means untouchable, but if I'm to find your and other posters' arguments against Deans credible, you guys need to which side of these arguments you're gonna use and try sticking to them.

+1

 

[I like to watch]

saw the replay of the 06 boks game in Brisvegas last night, when we won 40 odd to nil.
it highlights Deans deficiencies.
All he has to do is bring back Larkham & Latham & ask Git's to play like he used to.
If only it was that easy!
It is not like these current Wobblies have been outstanding in S14, and when they play his patterns it all goes to shit.
You can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear.

 

[fatprop]

What a rubbish post.... Fainga'a has shown promise for years ever since being one of the stars for the winning U19 Australian squad...

Thankfully Link finally gave him the chance this year to shine in the Super 14 and he's done just that...

Now, I'm not saying he should be starting but he deserves to be in the mix...

He is in the mix, he is in the squad. He was never going to start ahead of Gits or Barnes, his best hope will be some time in November unless there are injuries.

 

[louie]

People on this forum need to remember it's not 1999. I know we where all alot younger then but it's different now. Not as good as we used to be. The players are not the same as we've had.

 

[Scotty]

I would love to have seen the likes of Simmons, Douglas, Hodgson, Fa'ainga and Higgers starting Test matches in June to see where they were in terms of development, but by and large injury stopped this being able to happen (I would have criticised Deans if he hadn't tried them if they weren't injured). However there is no way in the world I would consider starting a player in his first test match, when he is coming back from injury against on of the top two sides in the world. If Deans did and it didn't come off he would have more detractors than he does now.

 

[Scotty]

People on this forum need to remember it's not 1999. I know we where all alot younger then but it's different now. Not as good as we used to be. The players are not the same as we've had.

Exactly. Just had the conversation in the coffee shop.

As I said Lock, Centre and Fullback I reckon are the weakest areas. Have a look at what we have had previously in these positions - Eales, Vickerman, Herbert, Horan, Little, Burke, Latham. Each one of these players, with the exception of Vickerman, were considered best in their position in the world at some time or another. The current crop really have nothing on these guys (at this stage).

 

[cyclopath]

Exactly. Just had the conversation in the coffee shop.

As I said Lock, Centre and Fullback I reckon are the weakest areas. Have a look at what we have had previously in these positions - Eales, Vickerman, Herbert, Horan, Little, Burke, Latham. Each one of these players, with the exception of Vickerman, were considered best in their position in the world at some time or another. The current crop really have nothing on these guys (at this stage).

Just been saying as much over on TSF (I need variety, Scarfy don't flame me!!). Sad reality. We could still do better, but how much?

 

[fatprop]

I would love to have seen the likes of Simmons, Douglas, Hodgson, Fa'ainga and Higgers starting Test matches in June to see where they were in terms of development, but by and large injury stopped this being able to happen (I would have criticised Deans if he hadn't tried them if they weren't injured). However there is no way in the world I would consider starting a player in his first test match, when he is coming back from injury against on of the top two sides in the world. If Deans did and it didn't come off he would have more detractors than he does now.

I think they may have if they shown any form in the Aus A games, but they didn't. None of the forwards stood up in those matches and showed anything. The backs looked OK off quick ball early but they weren't except for JOC (James O'Connor).

 

[Scotty]

Just been saying as much over on TSF (I need variety, Scarfy don't flame me!!). Sad reality. We could still do better, but how much?

Traitor.

 

[ACT Crusader]

One problem I see from an "outsiders" view is that I can't see who the Wallabies are building their team around. Who are the one or two or three lynchpin guys that selections will revolve around. This can't be underestimated in the greatest team sport around.

Whilst it doesn't guarantee automatic success, it does provide some stability and greater confidence. It's no surprise that there is huge debate on here over player selection in many positions because there simply aren't those lynchpins.

The ABs right now do not debate 4, 7 and 10. When Mils is fit he is a certainty. These four guys are who Henry has built his team around for years.

I'm sure Deans would have liked to have got the job a few years earlier when Mortlock wasn't so crook and still playing decent footy. Or when Latham was kicking around. I'm sure that he would have liked to have got Sharpe a few years ago when he was talked about as a world class lock rather than the tallest centre/three-quarter. Now he needs to try and build a team around....???? Genia, Cooper, Pocock, Elsom? These guys for the most part are still wet behind the ears (bar Elsom) and do not fully know the rigors of Int'l test footy. They simply lack experience, but have talent.

IMO Deans is trying to build that core 3 or 4 and build the right pieces around. Smells like 2001-03 ABs to me....

 

[Scotty]

Good point. ACT C.

The guys we can build around are: Robinson, Moore/TPN, Pocock, Elsom, Genia. Only two of these have been available for most test matches so far this season, so it is pretty hard to build a team around players that aren't there.

However he does need to find a few more backs to build the team around. Giteau isn't working. Hopefully QC (Quade Cooper) will continue his good form and improve his defense. Robbie needs to settle on a backline position for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), as he is the only other guy that you could build around (well Ioane is a certain starter, but you can't really build around a winger).

 

[ACT Crusader]

Good point. ACT C.

The guys we can build around are: Robinson, Moore/TPN, Pocock, Elsom, Genia. Only two of these have been available for most test matches so far this season, so it is pretty hard to build a team around players that aren't there.

However he does need to find a few more backs to build the team around. Giteau isn't working. Hopefully QC (Quade Cooper) will continue his good form and improve his defense. Robbie needs to settle on a backline position for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), as he is the only other guy that you could build around (well Ioane is a certain starter, but you can't really build around a winger).

Robinson is a great prospect and has showed already that he's up to it, but right now is still settling in IMO.

If TPN can play a full season without injury then I'll eat my hat. But again a genuine player that could have a massive future if can get regular time. Moore is a good player and a real workhorse, but a bit more certainty around him in terms of personnel would help him greatly.

Pocock and Genia are "the future", as most would readily accept. But they are just that, and when you're the coach, you need "the present" and IMO he simply doesn't have that. Tough gig.