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Lions Watch

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Rassie

Trevor Allan (34)
Gatlands teams have employed the blitz defense for years and it consistently hasn't worked against southern hemisphere teams. It will be interesting to see if they go for a different approach this time around.
THey actually use the hybrid version of the blitz/drift same as the Kiwi's. A good example of this is the try from Barrett against NZ. Conrad Smith jumping out. He did not make a mistake. It is the part of the defensive pattern. Then 2nd last man will jump out and nail the ball carrier which puts the defense on the front foot. They still drift just 2nd last guy normally the 13 will blitz. Fourie done it a few times as well.
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
I am late to the lions (and it's history), so am curious about the 'back catalog'. I guess it is semi autonomous in many ways? It would have it's own, dunno, steering committee? A law and body unto itself?

How was gatland selected as coach for example, the 'Lions board' did the interviews and selections? A vote between the various bodies that make up the lions? How does it get funded, from these various unions (and so is subjected to all the internal politics) or....what?

I read in the roar about them 'taking the underdogs' tag, or wanting it, pointing out the difficulties of having members from different countries...

“The difficulty of a Lions tour is that you’re bringing the players from four countries together with a limited preparation and you’re playing away from home against one of the best three countries in the world,” Gatland said in a teleconference to Australia.

How real is that do you think?? On first glance to me it seems a bit stretched, is there really that much difference with that than simply selecting guys from different clubs?? Is there any less preparation than it would be for say a wales tour, or an england tour? Why is there less prep for a lions tour, and why does it make that much difference because they come from different countries than simply different clubs/franchises.

What about this other line from the same article


“I think if you picked a Tri Nations team between Australia, New Zealand and South Africa and you brought them together for a few days and you went to the northern hemisphere, there’s no guarantee that they would be better than the All Blacks or Australia or South Africa as individual teams.

Firstly, why has something like this not ever gotten off the ground? Hands up, who would not like to see this be a regular thing? I'd imagine the money would flow into the respective coffers, and would be intense interest (esp after enough time that it gained the same status as the Lions).

One of the carrots suggested be dangle to IF (as but one example) is that in union the international aspect has it's own attraction that league cannot offer, well add to that an equivalent Super Rugby lions which from our perspective is not a twelve year cycle but a four year one (is that correct?). What would that team be called heh heh. How would that team go in the NH, and how should such a thing be set up, equal but arbitrary numbers from each of the countries (might make it more-or less competative) or just the best guy for each position and who cares what the final percentages are. (I'd go for arbitrary but equal, more interesting)
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
But still

Wales first try came from attacking that same region as above there in the 2nd test. 2nd Try cam from a mistake behind the ruck as well

Think Philips is a great player and thoughts of Will genia owning him premature. I do however think that he is prone to box kicking mania and against Australia this just means giving away posession.
 

Rassie

Trevor Allan (34)
Think Philips is a great player and thoughts of Will genia owning him premature. I do however think that he is prone to box kicking mania and against Australia this just means giving away posession.
The kick and chase game. Something we have come to accept as SOuth African rugby. Box kicking just for the sake of it on the highest level? Then I don't think you belong at international level. The idea is to have a no. 9 who is a good tactical kicker. I like to use Fourie Du Preez as a example as he was one of the best if not thee best of the no. 9's with tactical kicking. He could kick to the wings with accuracy or pin point on which player he wanted to put a up and under on. What that created was space because of that threat of him being to kick it where ever he want with accuracy the wings could not drop back of the opposition and Morne Steyn had big spaces to kick into. But it is a good tactic if you have a very good line out especially a guy like Matfield who ripped 38 percent of the Aussies and Kiwi's balls in the 2009 Tri NAtions. And of course you know more than a third of tries came from line outs.

As you can see from South Africa once we employed a 9 who skies his box kicks and let the opposition know before he is going to box kick our ten had no space to kick into and he looked a bit lost. In last years Rugby Championship 50 percent of all tries were scored from the line out. But the interesting fact was that none of AUstralia's tries started from inside their own half. Australia had one of the weakest line outs in the rugby championship and I think its going to be the place where they are targeted especially with Wales and Scotland scoring 50 percent of their tries from line outs. The only thing I am surprised at is the lack of Scotsman upfront. At line out time they were the best with knicking the ball in the 6 Nations.
 

GunnerDownUnder

Jim Clark (26)
Actual breakdown of where Lions squad were born:
England 10
Wales 9
Ireland 8
New Zealand 3
South Africa 2
Scotland 2
Tonga 1
Samoa 1
Israel 1
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
I don't get Murray as fragile, has he had more injuries than other Irish scrum halves? If you were talking about "Sicknote" Earls I would agree but I can't say I noticed Murray injured more than other Irish players in that position this season.
Its more continuing niggles, knees in particular. He seems to be better this year in fairness and hopefully that will continue as he matures. He is also essential to Ireland and Munster because behind him there is a real drop off although I expect Marmion and, in particular, Luke McGrath to be pushing him over the next few years.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
I am late to the lions (and it's history), so am curious about the 'back catalog'. I guess it is semi autonomous in many ways? It would have it's own, dunno, steering committee? A law and body unto itself?

How was gatland selected as coach for example, the 'Lions board' did the interviews and selections? A vote between the various bodies that make up the lions? How does it get funded, from these various unions (and so is subjected to all the internal politics) or..what?

I read in the roar about them 'taking the underdogs' tag, or wanting it, pointing out the difficulties of having members from different countries.

“The difficulty of a Lions tour is that you’re bringing the players from four countries together with a limited preparation and you’re playing away from home against one of the best three countries in the world,” Gatland said in a teleconference to Australia.

How real is that do you think?? On first glance to me it seems a bit stretched, is there really that much difference with that than simply selecting guys from different clubs?? Is there any less preparation than it would be for say a wales tour, or an england tour? Why is there less prep for a lions tour, and why does it make that much difference because they come from different countries than simply different clubs/franchises.

<snip>

I guess I could try to give a little history to the Lions for you, although I doubt this is going to be brief. A lot of this is from memory of watching many Lions specials and reading books etc. so if I get any details wrong I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can correct me.

Origins

The first Lions tour was actually an unsanctioned commercial venture. A group of players drawn from England, Wales & Scotland toured Australia and New Zealand. They only played club sides as there was no sanction for test matches and the tour lasted 6 months.

The first sanctioned tour is seen as the 1891 tour of South Africa. The Lions played South Africa 3 times and won all 3 tests. This tour was also the origins for the Currie Cup, not the competition but the trophy itself. The Lions presented the Currie Cup to Griqualand West as they were adjudged to have given the Lions the best game from the club and provincial teams.

Name

Originally the team was called the British Isles as it was a team that represented the political area know at the time by that name. After the Irish war of independence the meaning of the name was changed to represent the geographical area rather than a political area.

The name the Lions originated from a tour of South Africa in 1924 where the press referred to the tourists as the Lions due to the lion on the ties that they wore. Ironically this was also the first tour where the crest worn today (a quartered crest with the crests of the 4 unions) replaced the Lion on the shirts.

The team name later became the British Lions but was subsequently changed as it was felt it might be offensive to the Irish contingent. The name was change to the British and Irish Lions for the 2001 tour of Australia.

Tour Committee

The Lions tour is organised by the tour committee who are an autonomous body responsible for organising the tours, sponsors, coaches etc. The current chairman is Gerald Davies a former 2 time Lions tourist. The committee sees little political interference from the home unions.

However while home union politics stays out of the Lions, Lions politics doesn't necessarily stay out of the home unions. An example of this would be Graham Henry's tenue as Lions head coach for the 2001 tour. Due to what was seen as a snub to his Wales players in his selections for the Tour he found he had lost the dressing room when he returned to coaching Wales and was shortly after out of a job following a record defeat to Ireland in 2002 6 Nations.

Jersey

The Jersey has been through a number of incarnations with the earlier Jerseys being various hooped version of the British flag in red, white and blue. The colour of the jersey has also been dark blue and red at various times.

The current red jersey has it roots in a 1930 tour of New Zealand when the Lions jersey at the time was dark blue. The clash of jerseys meant that, as per protocol, the home team would have to change. So for the first time the All Blacks became the All Whites. The NZRU weren't very happy about this and there was a big fuss. So the next time the Lions toured New Zealand the Jersey was red to avoid a clash and has remained so to this day.

The Shorts and socks have also changed colour down through the years. When the red was first adopted the shorts and socks were white and blue. A green turn-down was later added to the socks to ensure that Ireland were represented on the kit also.

Coach

The initial tours had no coach and it was left to the captain or one of the other players to devise tactics etc. It wasn't until the 1960s that the first coach was appointed. It's only been in the professional era that there's been a coaching squad rather than just a lone coach.

The recent trend is for the coach to be picked from those in charge of the home unions. 2001 Graham Henry was Wales coach, 2005 Clive Woodward from England and 2013 Warren Gatland of Wales. The recent exception has been Ian Mc Geechan who coached the 2009 tour to South Africa. Although Mc Geechan also previous coached the Lions while head coach of Scotland in 1989 and 1993.

This trend can create problems as I've already pointed out for Graham Henry following the 2001 tour. On the flip side in 2005 the problems were for the Lions when Clive Woodward seemed to think it was still 2003 and selected a bloated squad that included almost the entire 2003 World Cup winning England squad, many of whom were long past their best in 2005.

Time will tell if Gatland's appointment has an effect on his tenure as Wales coach. One thing that is known is that there is animosity between Gatland and the Irish players. This in part stems from his time as Ireland coach and also from remarks that he made a few years ago about the Welsh players hating the Irish players. The exclusion of Rory Best is rumoured to be connected to this animosity although with Best it's a little more personal and Best is said to have decked Gatland at an after game dinner.

The coach is selected by the touring committee. They decide who to interview rather than inviting candidate to apply for the position. A coach will normally throw his hat into the ring via the media in the season or so before the coach is selected. Generally for recent tours it's been an open secret who the coach will be long before any announcement.

Test History v Australia

The Lions have played 20 tests against Australia winning 15 and losing 5. The last test series against Australia was in 2001 when the Lions lost 2-1.

The Lions haven't won a test series since 1997 when Jeremy Guscott kicked a drop goal to win the 2nd test 18-15 securing a 2-0 lead in the series against South Africa. The Lions lost the final test but won the series 2-1.

The 1970s is seen as the golden age for the Lions and their success then is in stark contrast to the professional era where the Lions have struggled to gel.

Difficulties in moulding the team

I believe Gatland is correct when he says that the Lions are at a disadvantage. The modern era sees complex patterns in many areas of the game including attack, defence and lineout calls. Due to the limited time available and the players unfamiliarity the lions have to stick with simple structures and calls.

To put it in context 24 of the 37 man squad will be on debut for the Lions this summer. Yes some of them play together at international level and there's 2 groups of 6 players from Leicester and Leinster respectively. However these are players who are used to intense rivalry rather than combining as a harmonious team.

The players generally are of a very high standard which makes the gelling on the field easier than it would otherwise be. However the team also need to gel off the field and create a team spirit in a very short space of time. The players have to feel they can trust the guys to either side of them. The tours that have had some success in recent times are those that have largely managed to do this. In contrast the 2005 tour was an absolute disaster with fractures and cliques all over the squad.

They are facing a team that are ranked in the top 3 in the world and for all Robbie Deans short comings are the favourites. The Wallbies already have their structures in place and won't have to create them from scratch. With the exception of new members to the squad the players will know the structures, attacking and defensive patterns, calls etc. and will have a team spirit already there from previous test matches.

The Lions have to put all of that in place with players who are coming off a very long season. They've been playing and training with their clubs and countries since August and they'll continue to do so until shortly before the Lions leave for Hong Kong. Gatland and his coaching team then have to somehow mould them into a team that has a chance of winning the test series.

At the same time they've got to keep the players busy so that those who feel they've been overlooked for games don't become discontented and cause problems in the squad. The off field activities and team building stuff is going to be just as important as the onfield and I just hope that we can get it right.

The Lions really need to win a test series to breathe some new life into the whole concept whose existence many question in the professional era. For me I hope it continues and I hope we do actually put one over Aus, although I'm not confident just hopeful.
 

GunnerDownUnder

Jim Clark (26)
Its more continuing niggles, knees in particular. He seems to be better this year in fairness and hopefully that will continue as he matures. He is also essential to Ireland and Munster because behind him there is a real drop off although I expect Marmion and, in particular, Luke McGrath to be pushing him over the next few years.
I saw some of the under 20s this year and McGrath looked a great prospect (not quite Kennedy though ;) , him and Daily (I think the kicking centre anyway) stood out in the backs for me.
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
hey bardon

normally I hate a short post in a thread but hey, I have to really thank you for the time and effort you put in with your response to my questions.

seriously, thanks a heap.

I'll overlook the minor problem that you're rooting for the lions even!:) From your answer, all I can say is thank heavens that you (and others) feel we are capable of beating the stats.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Not a lot of faith in Jonny Sexton from the boys on the Rugby Club right now. Personally I think given Gatlands selection he is the most important man in the squad, I think the next few years are going to be massive for him and he could be a superstar come the World Cup.
 
P

Paradox

Guest
Not a lot of faith in Jonny Sexton from the boys on the Rugby Club right now. Personally I think given Gatlands selection he is the most important man in the squad, I think the next few years are going to be massive for him and he could be a superstar come the World Cup.
Was that the British Rugby club?
 

KevinO

Geoff Shaw (53)
Sexton has not really played well against Australia, I don't really rate his international career to date. His been the best 10 in the Heineken Cup for a few years but has never had that form for Ireland.

Can't believe how much they rate maitland, Visser or Zebo should be in the squad.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
A lot of the issues with Sexton playing for Ireland have to do with how Kidney was forcing him to play (deep in the pocket, etc) as opposed to how he plays at Leinster (flat to the line, etc). Should sound familiar to Wallabies and particularly Reds fans..
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
A lot of the issues with Sexton playing for Ireland have to do with how Kidney was forcing him to play (deep in the pocket, etc) as opposed to how he plays at Leinster (flat to the line, etc). Should sound familiar to Wallabies and particularly Reds fans..
Sexton was excellent for Ireland in the Autumn and against Wales and he wasn't 'being forced' to play deep by DK. He was crap until his hamstring went ping against England but he had not trained all week because of hammy problems so that explains the quietness. When fit he has been comfortably the best OH available to the Lions. However, I hope Fatland picks the coaches son or even brings Jonny 'I need a longer pitch and a quarter back to pass the ball back to me' Wilkinson.
 

Rassie

Trevor Allan (34)
Matt Stevens was not only born in South Africa he played for WP youth team, SA universities, Junior Springboks at U/18 and U/19 level. England clubs bypassed paying composition by doing what most do and is to let the fellow claim he is going to study at some uni to further his rugby Carreer I mean studies. WP should have received 3 years of compisation for his development.
 

Rassie

Trevor Allan (34)
I guess I could try to give a little history to the Lions for you, although I doubt this is going to be brief. A lot of this is from memory of watching many Lions specials and reading books etc. so if I get any details wrong I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can correct me.

Origins

The first Lions tour was actually an unsanctioned commercial venture. A group of players drawn from England, Wales & Scotland toured Australia and New Zealand. They only played club sides as there was no sanction for test matches and the tour lasted 6 months.

The first sanctioned tour is seen as the 1891 tour of South Africa. The Lions played South Africa 3 times and won all 3 tests. This tour was also the origins for the Currie Cup, not the competition but the trophy itself. The Lions presented the Currie Cup to Griqualand West as they were adjudged to have given the Lions the best game from the club and provincial teams.

Name

Originally the team was called the British Isles as it was a team that represented the political area know at the time by that name. After the Irish war of independence the meaning of the name was changed to represent the geographical area rather than a political area.

The name the Lions originated from a tour of South Africa in 1924 where the press referred to the tourists as the Lions due to the lion on the ties that they wore. Ironically this was also the first tour where the crest worn today (a quartered crest with the crests of the 4 unions) replaced the Lion on the shirts.

The team name later became the British Lions but was subsequently changed as it was felt it might be offensive to the Irish contingent. The name was change to the British and Irish Lions for the 2001 tour of Australia.

Tour Committee

The Lions tour is organised by the tour committee who are an autonomous body responsible for organising the tours, sponsors, coaches etc. The current chairman is Gerald Davies a former 2 time Lions tourist. The committee sees little political interference from the home unions.

However while home union politics stays out of the Lions, Lions politics doesn't necessarily stay out of the home unions. An example of this would be Graham Henry's tenue as Lions head coach for the 2001 tour. Due to what was seen as a snub to his Wales players in his selections for the Tour he found he had lost the dressing room when he returned to coaching Wales and was shortly after out of a job following a record defeat to Ireland in 2002 6 Nations.

Jersey

The Jersey has been through a number of incarnations with the earlier Jerseys being various hooped version of the British flag in red, white and blue. The colour of the jersey has also been dark blue and red at various times.

The current red jersey has it roots in a 1930 tour of New Zealand when the Lions jersey at the time was dark blue. The clash of jerseys meant that, as per protocol, the home team would have to change. So for the first time the All Blacks became the All Whites. The NZRU weren't very happy about this and there was a big fuss. So the next time the Lions toured New Zealand the Jersey was red to avoid a clash and has remained so to this day.

The Shorts and socks have also changed colour down through the years. When the red was first adopted the shorts and socks were white and blue. A green turn-down was later added to the socks to ensure that Ireland were represented on the kit also.

Coach

The initial tours had no coach and it was left to the captain or one of the other players to devise tactics etc. It wasn't until the 1960s that the first coach was appointed. It's only been in the professional era that there's been a coaching squad rather than just a lone coach.

The recent trend is for the coach to be picked from those in charge of the home unions. 2001 Graham Henry was Wales coach, 2005 Clive Woodward from England and 2013 Warren Gatland of Wales. The recent exception has been Ian Mc Geechan who coached the 2009 tour to South Africa. Although Mc Geechan also previous coached the Lions while head coach of Scotland in 1989 and 1993.

This trend can create problems as I've already pointed out for Graham Henry following the 2001 tour. On the flip side in 2005 the problems were for the Lions when Clive Woodward seemed to think it was still 2003 and selected a bloated squad that included almost the entire 2003 World Cup winning England squad, many of whom were long past their best in 2005.

Time will tell if Gatland's appointment has an effect on his tenure as Wales coach. One thing that is known is that there is animosity between Gatland and the Irish players. This in part stems from his time as Ireland coach and also from remarks that he made a few years ago about the Welsh players hating the Irish players. The exclusion of Rory Best is rumoured to be connected to this animosity although with Best it's a little more personal and Best is said to have decked Gatland at an after game dinner.

The coach is selected by the touring committee. They decide who to interview rather than inviting candidate to apply for the position. A coach will normally throw his hat into the ring via the media in the season or so before the coach is selected. Generally for recent tours it's been an open secret who the coach will be long before any announcement.

Test History v Australia

The Lions have played 20 tests against Australia winning 15 and losing 5. The last test series against Australia was in 2001 when the Lions lost 2-1.

The Lions haven't won a test series since 1997 when Jeremy Guscott kicked a drop goal to win the 2nd test 18-15 securing a 2-0 lead in the series against South Africa. The Lions lost the final test but won the series 2-1.

The 1970s is seen as the golden age for the Lions and their success then is in stark contrast to the professional era where the Lions have struggled to gel.

Difficulties in moulding the team

I believe Gatland is correct when he says that the Lions are at a disadvantage. The modern era sees complex patterns in many areas of the game including attack, defence and lineout calls. Due to the limited time available and the players unfamiliarity the lions have to stick with simple structures and calls.

To put it in context 23 of the 35 man squad will be on debut for the Lions this summer. Yes some of them play together at international level and there's 2 groups of 6 players from Leicester and Leinster respectively. However these are players who are used to intense rivalry rather than combining as a harmonious team.

The players generally are of a very high standard which makes the gelling on the field easier than it would otherwise be. However the team also need to gel off the field and create a team spirit in a very short space of time. The players have to feel they can trust the guys to either side of them. The tours that have had some success in recent times are those that have largely managed to do this. In contrast the 2005 tour was an absolute disaster with fractures and cliques all over the squad.

They are facing a team that are ranked in the top 3 in the world and for all Robbie Deans short comings are the favourites. The Wallbies already have their structures in place and won't have to create them from scratch. With the exception of new members to the squad the players will know the structures, attacking and defensive patterns, calls etc. and will have a team spirit already there from previous test matches.

The Lions have to put all of that in place with players who are coming off a very long season. They've been playing and training with their clubs and countries since August and they'll continue to do so until shortly before the Lions leave for Hong Kong. Gatland and his coaching team then have to somehow mould them into a team that has a chance of winning the test series.

At the same time they've got to keep the players busy so that those who feel they've been overlooked for games don't become discontented and cause problems in the squad. The off field activities and team building stuff is going to be just as important as the onfield and I just hope that we can get it right.

The Lions really need to win a test series to breathe some new life into the whole concept whose existence many question in the professional era. For me I hope it continues and I hope we do actually put one over Aus, although I'm not confident just hopeful.
The game Vs WP in the 1920's was given TEST status if I remember correctly
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
Matt Stevens was not only born in South Africa he played for WP youth team, SA universities, Junior Springboks at U/18 and U/19 level. England clubs bypassed paying composition by doing what most do and is to let the fellow claim he is going to study at some uni to further his rugby Carreer I mean studies. WP should have received 3 years of compisation for his development.
And he has had a very nice house bought for him, by Saracens, to retire to in SA to bypass the salary cap, ALLEGEDLY.
 
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