Lessons from round 1 (?)

[Scarfman]

There is a fundamental dichotomy between those who want to use the site to discuss our sport analytically and those who are blatantly partisan and use it as a vehicle to put the slipper into players they don't like as well as anyone who attempts to argue against the mob view.

I don;'t agree, Bruce. I reckon we are all partisan, and the dichotomy is between those who know it and those who don't.

Anyway, RULE 7 has long since been trampled on, and I'm waiting for you blokes to settle this like gentlemen. Any takers?

 

[Scotty]

Fair enough, Bruce. And you are right, we, in general are overly negative a lot of the time. This is fairly prevalent in our entire culture though.

I'm happy enough for people to be critical of players that have brain farts, or play dirty, however if they are delivering what you expect them to deliver and you still don't believe they should be in the team, then take it up with the coach!

 

[waratahjesus]

Maybe I was a bit tough on Noddy, Scotty, but this thread illustrates well how people can be provoked into intemperate responses. So far in this one thread there have been fifteen separate posts which criticised Tom Carter; four negative posts for both Phil Waugh and Sosene Anesi; two for Berrick Barnes; and one each for Cam Jowitt, Will Caldwell, Luke Burgess and Kurtley Beale. And one criticising Morgan Turinui who marked Carter and had a memorably forgettable game.

I personally find such pack attacks offensive but I try to ignore them as a blemish in what is otherwise a very useful site.

But when Noddy went out of his way to try to provoke me into defending Carter and I found that the statistics that he cited were wrong it is not surprising that I responded forcefully. Noddy has since explained that when he posted the stats site showed different figures.

There is a fundamental dichotomy between those who want to use the site to discuss our sport analytically and those who are blatantly partisan and use it as a vehicle to put the slipper into players they don't like as well as anyone who attempts to argue against the mob view.

Different strokes ...

well said bruce,
i think Tom Carter was the best outside centre on the park saturday night and look forward to someone explaining why he wasnt?
if pocock outplays george smith its cos he is better, tom carter outplayed his opposite, meaning he is the best player in qld and nsw at his position.

 

[Scotty]

I don;'t agree, Bruce. I reckon we are all partisan, and the dichotomy is between those who know it and those who don't.

Anyway, RULE 7 has long since been trampled on, and I'm waiting for you blokes to settle this like gentlemen. Any takers?

Now, Rule 7 mentions taking over a thread. We've spread this disagreement over two. Actually to be completely accurate I had a disagreement with Lee on one thread and with Bruce on another. Lee just decided to join in with the Bruce one!

I did offer a (small) olive branch:

Anyway, Lee, et al - I can see that my use of words such as smart-arse and bullshit is probably inflammatory, so I will refrain from their use, provided condescension in your posts is removed.

Bruce has taken it - so I'd like to apologise to him for being rude in my post, particularly in the use of the term 'smart-arse'.

Lee has continued the argument on in another thread, so I suspect he won't be taking the branch.

 

[cyclopath]

I disagree, Bruce.
You cannot just dismiss criticism of a player's performance as being due to them being "disliked". I find it condescending that you feel it is so simplistic. You imply no-one else puts any thought into their comments. Carter gets over-used as an example at times, I agree, and there are aspects of his game that are not in question, defence being one.
However in a lateral backline as we seem to have (the fault of several) we need a player that straightens and goes forward, and possibly offloads if he can break the line. 13s commonly are looked upon to do this. Carter didn't, so the performance is reasonably questioned. That he performed better than his opposite is irrelevant. It does not mean the performance was acceptable. For Gods's sake, Mortlock was probably the pick 13 for Aussie teams all weekend, and he hardly set it alight. Should we just accept the mediocre? Apart from Burgess, and Mitchell and Turner in patches, I don't think any of the backs played with much merit.
So waratahjesus, I will concede Carter probably played better than Turinui. If that is his best, I am concerned. I would hope you are too.

 

[waratahjesus]

I disagree, Bruce.
You cannot just dismiss criticism of a player's performance as being due to them being "disliked". I find it condescending that you feel it is so simplistic. You imply no-one else puts any thought into their comments. Carter gets over-used as an example at times, I agree, and there are aspects of his game that are not in question, defence being one.
However in a lateral backline as we seem to have (the fault of several) we need a player that straightens and goes forward, and possibly offloads if he can break the line. 13s commonly are looked upon to do this. Carter didn't, so the performance is reasonably questioned. That he performed better than his opposite is irrelevant. It does not mean the performance was acceptable. For Gods's sake, Mortlock was probably the pick 13 for Aussie teams all weekend, and he hardly set it alight. Should we just accept the mediocre? Apart from Burgess, and Mitchell and Turner in patches, I don't think any of the backs played with much merit.
So waratahjesus, I will concede Carter probably played better than Turinui. If that is his best, I am concerned. I would hope you are too.

thankyou cyclo i accept your apology, now remember that morgan was playing in position and carter was out of position so again it makes his job harder. i also find the criticism of him going across field funny as when he is at 12 people say he runs to much anyway.

i like Carter as a squad player and im happy he is at the Tahs, do i wish robbie horne was fit and playing 13, yes, do i think Carter is going to let the squad down, no. its as easy as that, but to constantly refer to him as some bottom feeder when he has experienced more success than half the wallaby squad, well i have issue with that. QLD played well on saturday night but the fact they lost shows they played with ass not class and thats that!

 

[Scarfman]

You really value your Scarf Award, don't you WJ? A firm grip, I would describe it as.

 

[cyclopath]

"Bottom-feeder"??? Now you're just making shit up!! :lmao:
And it wasn't an apology.
An Turinui was mainly a 12 for many years too.
Apart from all those errors, you're spot-on.

 

[Pfitzy]

So far in this one thread there have been fifteen separate posts which criticised Tom Carter;

:nta: You're right. There is room for a few more there...

 

[waratahjesus]

"Bottom-feeder"??? Now you're just making shit up!! :lmao:
And it wasn't an apology.
An Turinui was mainly a 12 for many years too.
Apart from all those errors, you're spot-on.

the bottomfeeder line wasnt directed at you cyclo, just a word to discribe the amount from a few different sources of people criticising him.

but the apology, that was heartfelt and real and your not allowed to take it back! your a decent bloke and if its alright with your mum, how about we go out for sundae?

 

[waratahjesus]

You really value your Scarf Award, don't you WJ? A firm grip, I would describe it as.

i dont think the award applies to me actually scarfie, i spent most of last year pushing players that weren't tahs.
its not my fault i like winning rugby so therefore spend most of my time talking about the waratahs.
if i liked losing rugby i would be a force man.
if i liked rugby but didnt want to make a commitment i would follow the brumbies.
and if i wanted to be the sort of person who promised the world and never delivered, i would simply see the reds as the team that matches my personality.

 

[cyclopath]

"Bottom-feeder"??? Now you're just making shit up!! :lmao:
And it wasn't an apology.
An Turinui was mainly a 12 for many years too.
Apart from all those errors, you're spot-on.

the bottomfeeder line wasnt directed at you cyclo, just a word to discribe the amount from a few different sources of people criticising him.

but the apology, that was heartfelt and real and your not allowed to take it back! your a decent bloke and if its alright with your mum, how about we go out for sundae?

I presume you would be, sorry provide the nut factor?

 

[waratahjesus]

"Bottom-feeder"??? Now you're just making shit up!! :lmao:
And it wasn't an apology.
An Turinui was mainly a 12 for many years too.
Apart from all those errors, you're spot-on.

the bottomfeeder line wasnt directed at you cyclo, just a word to discribe the amount from a few different sources of people criticising him.

but the apology, that was heartfelt and real and your not allowed to take it back! your a decent bloke and if its alright with your mum, how about we go out for sundae?

I presume you would be, sorry provide the nut factor?

it was as bros mate, none of this nancy stuff! nut free!!!

 

[Blue]

Different strokes ...

Bruce, may I suggest you consider for a minute that there are some of us who not only like to anayze things, occasionally bag players, but also engage in idle (and often mindless) banter. None of these are mutually exclusive.

The art lies in deciding what to read, not read, and take seriously if you have read it. That's the beaty of a forum like this. You can choose what you spend time on.

As for Carter, if someone continually acts like an idiot, and doesn't consistently produce the walk that goes with the talk (and all the bickering and pushing and shoving after the whistle), you are going to get singled out. No conspiracy there.

I for one enjoy your posts and hope that you'll add a grain of salt to some of the things you read here.

 

[Lindommer]

I disagree, Bruce.

A difference of opinion in the learned halls of The University of Sydney? A spat at the Sydney University Football Club? Surely not? : : :

 

[cyclopath]

I disagree, Bruce.

A difference of opinion in the learned halls of The University of Sydney? A spat at the Sydney University Football Club? Surely not? : : :

'Tis an august institution, and fierce debate is encouraged.
Well, I seem to remember arguing a bit when I was there.
And you know I am not a knee-jerk defender of all things Sydney Uni.

 

[Langthorne]

Bruce, I did consider starting a thread called "Things that went as well as the Waratahs wanted against the Reds", but the list isn't very long:

"they won"
"they aren't a crap as QLD"

Lessons learnt is, by its nature, going to involve some criticism.

By and large, I think the problems were to do with selection, tactics and attitude:

selection - some players not available (Horne), some players not starting who should (Mowen)

tactics - little clean fast ball, too little mauling and picking and driving, back line lacked variation direction and penetration

attitude - not enough aggression or urgency


One potential plus is that they got a scare but didn't have to suffer too much for it - maybe they will bring their A game from now on.

 

[fatprop]

Good post Langthorne

I would add the lack in urgency of attackers getting in position to give burgess options.

It is fine to say the ball is taking too long to clear, but I didn't see a lot of screaming ball runners with supporters on their hips not being given a chance.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Langthorne, I have also been critical of the 'Tahs in this game. Some of my criticism has been posted on this site and some conveyed privately. I agree with what you have included under "tactics" and "attitude".

In mitigation I think the forwards were put off their game by the French style tactics Link seems to have picked up in Paris. They worked for perhaps 70 minutes but also eventually proved his side's undoing.

In the Republic I don't want to see the headless chook back play that unfortunately seemed to have carried over from last season. Let's see some sharp service and ball through the hands.

This is potentially a very good side.

 

[Langthorne]

Absolutely - with more fast forward phases and the addition of Horne (or a straight running Carter hitting the ball and defensive line at pace), they could do very well.

Surely it can't get worse.

BTW - Barnes didn't have his best ever game, but I am still very happy to have him. Apart from his being injury prone, his all round play is good (hopefully with another week of drilling he'll run the backs better too), and he is the solution to the Waratahs' kicking issues.