Junior rugby based on weight classes

[I like to watch]

It’s a pretty tough go on the 20kg heavier kid, “hey Sione, sorry your DNA makes you a little bit bigger than everyone else, we are going to make you play up an age, leave all your friends behind, oh what’s that - your club doesn’t have a team in the age group above, damn that sucks you’ll have to change clubs then and there’s absolutly no way for you to appeal this decision because we don’t really care what you have to say on the matter”

How goods not being able to appeal something

If the kid is a little bigger, he's fine.
the kids who are substantially larger, are the few that will be affected.
But it's really not that big a deal.
Some of my kids were bottom age in their year at School, some were top age.They all had a mix of mates in each of these age groups.
That meant that they played winter sports with some,summer sports with others.And no sports with a few.
I repeatedly put my kids in teams and sports where they knew no one, that's how they end up with a wide circle of friends.
In the main,a few huge kids will be asked to play up,where they may or may not know most of the team, it's really not that big a deal in most cases.
with every rule change, you can always construct a particular set of circumstances where an individual might be disadvantaged, but in the main, this is a good policy that addresses a problem that faces many participants, with little downside to any but a few in special circumstances.

 

[southsider]

My mind just boggles by this all, I don’t know weather it’s a case of I’m just being too crass cause I don’t have kids or parents being over protective but I’m astounded that people are ok with singling out a kid for his size, going “they MAY hurt my kid, (it’s a contact sport let’s not forget) probably won’t but just to be on the safe side I don’t want them to be playing with my child” and then making the big kid change grades. Like you’re child/parent that has the problem why don’t you change and go down don’t inconvenience others for your own insecurities because there are plenty of kids out there who have no problems tackling the big kids

And I’ve seen the argument “what if the small child is too talented for younger age group” if the kids too talented then he should be talented enough to be figuring out a way to be tackling bigger kids and if he is that talented he is probably playing reps where he will play against these big kids anyway??

 

[TOCC]

Southsider, I feel like everyone has given fairly reasonable justification and arguments as to why they agree with this decision.
Understand that this isn't just about size, its about the mental maturity and skill-set of those children as well. Whilst your taking exception that a kids feelings may be hurt, I don't agree, being asked to play up a grade is a promotion, just like those kids who are selected in the 1st XV before they are in year 12.

 

[Kenny Powers]

My mind just boggles by this all, I don’t know weather it’s a case of I’m just being too crass cause I don’t have kids or parents being over protective but I’m astounded that people are ok with singling out a kid for his size, going “they MAY hurt my kid, (it’s a contact sport let’s not forget) probably won’t but just to be on the safe side I don’t want them to be playing with my child” and then making the big kid change grades. Like you’re child/parent that has the problem why don’t you change and go down don’t inconvenience others for your own insecurities because there are plenty of kids out there who have no problems tackling the big kids

And I’ve seen the argument “what if the small child is too talented for younger age group” if the kids too talented then he should be talented enough to be figuring out a way to be tackling bigger kids and if he is that talented he is probably playing reps where he will play against these big kids anyway??

SS I see this a little differently, to me it's about skills acquisition and development. If your are an adult and into winning trophies you are going to be against this.

When you have a player dominating simply due to their size and power, not skills how is that good for anyone? It's certainly not good for their development. The best example I can give for this is young talented cricketers they don't stay in underage competitions they move to an adult age group to be challenged more. Very few talented cricketers have come from the various school comps.

Also too the new rules will require that the large, fast and powerful play up, but there is nothing stopping those not required to play up from electing to play up as they feel they can compete safely and develop their skills and be adequately challenged by playing up.

 

[BAR]

If the kid is a little bigger, he's fine.

the kids who are substantially larger, are the few that will be affected...

ILTW, I agree. This will largely be an implementation issue for RU. The apparent design and intent from what I've seen is reasonable but some players will be lost to RU from the change. In my experience (across a number of sports) there are kids who start in a sport to be with their mates, and if they aren't with those mates they simply pick another sport. This will be unavoidable 'cause we're not necessarily talking about kids old enough to accept that they'll make new friends (or any of the other reasonable rationalisation us adults might bandy around).

My son started playing rugby at 10yrs in an older age group. He was playing league and someone suggested he try rugby (a sport he had no experience/knowledge of at that time). His very clear instructions were I'll give it a go but only if I am with my (specific group of) friends - which required him playing up an age group. If he couldn't play rugby with his mates he wouldn't be playing rugby now...

RU will be hoping that the number of kids who come to (or return to) rugby because parents perceive it to be safer will outnumber those who might leave (or not join RU) as a result of being affected by the change. It's not a reason not to change, just a transitional issue that will need to be weathered.

The silence in regards to how this change will be implemented from JRU and club land remains deafening...

 

[Braveheart81]

My mind just boggles by this all, I don’t know weather it’s a case of I’m just being too crass cause I don’t have kids or parents being over protective but I’m astounded that people are ok with singling out a kid for his size, going “they MAY hurt my kid, (it’s a contact sport let’s not forget) probably won’t but just to be on the safe side I don’t want them to be playing with my child” and then making the big kid change grades. Like you’re child/parent that has the problem why don’t you change and go down don’t inconvenience others for your own insecurities because there are plenty of kids out there who have no problems tackling the big kids

And I’ve seen the argument “what if the small child is too talented for younger age group” if the kids too talented then he should be talented enough to be figuring out a way to be tackling bigger kids and if he is that talented he is probably playing reps where he will play against these big kids anyway??

<p>Your criticism of this change seems to be entirely theoretical as opposed to people with lived experience currently or recently in junior rugby.</p><br>

<p>This is a real issue that has exacerbated over the years due to the general increasing size of humans and how that increases the disparity between the biggest kids and the smallest kids.</p><br>

<p>A substantial part of this is trying to arrest the drop out rate of junior rugby players who aren't elite players once they reach high school and the size differences and physicality of the game really starts to increase.</p><br>

<p>At the end of the day I think this will have zero difference on the progression and interest of the most talented players. What it will do is keep the kids who aren't that great and start to really struggle due to being tiny from dropping out of the game. It is also designed to influence the decisions of parents who may not be thinking entirely rationally about the situation. We want these parents to let their children play rugby and there is absolutely no benefit to rugby if the kid doesn't play and our only response is to say that their parents were stupid for getting hung up about how big some kids were.</p><br>

 

[Slim 293]

And just to add to BH's points......... NZ has been doing this since forever - it seems to work for them.

 

[Rebels3]

<p>Your criticism of this change seems to be entirely theoretical as opposed to people with lived experience currently or recently in junior rugby.</p><br>

<p>This is a real issue that has exacerbated over the years due to the general increasing size of humans and how that increases the disparity between the biggest kids and the smallest kids.</p><br>

<p>A substantial part of this is trying to arrest the drop out rate of junior rugby players who aren't elite players once they reach high school and the size differences and physicality of the game really starts to increase.</p><br>

<p>At the end of the day I think this will have zero difference on the progression and interest of the most talented players. What it will do is keep the kids who aren't that great and start to really struggle due to being tiny from dropping out of the game. It is also designed to influence the decisions of parents who may not be thinking entirely rationally about the situation. We want these parents to let their children play rugby and there is absolutely no benefit to rugby if the kid doesn't play and our only response is to say that their parents were stupid for getting hung up about how big some kids were.</p><br>

Well put braveheart.

I go to games to watch my nefew play, he isn't a small kid (prob slightly above average height), he is about 30-35kgs but i am not joking when i say there is some kids that are 60-70 almost 80kgs in opposing teams. That's in some cases triple the size of some opposing players. They just leave a literal trail of destruction behind them, so much so mothers on the sidelines are terrified for their kids, plus some of the more sheepish kids are terrified for themselves. By seasons end at least 1 kid gets pulled out of the team and by the next season a third of the team doesn't return to play the new season. This is the big issue, i don't think i'd be exaggerating if i'd say we lose thousands of children each year across the country due to this. At the younger ages it's not a place to be tough or refine ones tackling technique, it needs to be a fun place where people build a passion for the game.

 

[Bessa]

Well put braveheart.

I go to games to watch my nefew play, he isn't a small kid (prob slightly above average height), he is about 30-35kgs but i am not joking when i say there is some kids that are 60-70 almost 80kgs in opposing teams. That's in some cases triple the size of some opposing players. They just leave a literal trail of destruction behind them, so much so mothers on the sidelines are terrified for their kids, plus some of the more sheepish kids are terrified for themselves. By seasons end at least 1 kid gets pulled out of the team and by the next season a third of the team doesn't return to play the new season. This is the big issue, i don't think i'd be exaggerating if i'd say we lose thousands of children each year across the country due to this. At the younger ages it's not a place to be tough or refine ones tackling technique, it needs to be a fun place where people build a passion for the game.

Correct. I doubt my 9 year old will ever be a Wallaby, but he enjoys playing the game. For him it is purely a great arvo of running around with his mate. If he ever thought there was a real danger of getting seriously hurt, he'd just say he didn't want to do it anymore, which I would be comfortable with.

 

[Bessa]

Quick question, below is from the press release.

Any word on what will be "below or above an acceptable height or weight range"?

"From 2018, all Under 10 to Under 15 players deemed to be below or above an accepted height and weight range will now be subject to mandatory assessment by a qualified, independent Coach to determine which age bracket they are most suited to playing."

 

[southsider]

<p>Your criticism of this change seems to be entirely theoretical as opposed to people with lived experience currently or recently in junior rugby.</p><br>

<p>This is a real issue that has exacerbated over the years due to the general increasing size of humans and how that increases the disparity between the biggest kids and the smallest kids.</p><br>

<p>A substantial part of this is trying to arrest the drop out rate of junior rugby players who aren't elite players once they reach high school and the size differences and physicality of the game really starts to increase.</p><br>

<p>At the end of the day I think this will have zero difference on the progression and interest of the most talented players. What it will do is keep the kids who aren't that great and start to really struggle due to being tiny from dropping out of the game. It is also designed to influence the decisions of parents who may not be thinking entirely rationally about the situation. We want these parents to let their children play rugby and there is absolutely no benefit to rugby if the kid doesn't play and our only response is to say that their parents were stupid for getting hung up about how big some kids were.</p><br>

I’d hazard a guess I played juniors far more recently than you mate and have worked consistently in junior sport since - assumptions make an ass out of you and me all I’ve got are my own personal experiences, same as everyone else.

As for junior drop out rates have you actually seen any data to back up this claim of large numbers dropping out because of difference in size? I remember seeing stats at one stage, I think it was from nsw rugby but can’t be sure and the main reasons were don’t have the time, doesn’t like sport anymore, went from club to school or just liked another sport better, too big did not factor into it

Ok answer me the question of “if a kid is too big and gets told to move up and their club doesn’t offer a team in that division, what happens to the kid?” It’s a very realistic scenario, and you’re just as likely to lose that kid to the local league club as you are the small kid stopping playing except the small kid will probably end up dropping out a few years down the track anyway

 

[Bessa]

I’d hazard a guess I played juniors far more recently than you mate and have worked consistently in junior sport since - assumptions make an ass out of you and me all I’ve got are my own personal experiences, same as everyone else.

As for junior drop out rates have you actually seen any data to back up this claim of large numbers dropping out because of difference in size? I remember seeing stats at one stage, I think it was from nsw rugby but can’t be sure and the main reasons were don’t have the time, doesn’t like sport anymore, went from club to school or just liked another sport better, too big did not factor into it

Ok answer me the question of “if a kid is too big and gets told to move up and their club doesn’t offer a team in that division, what happens to the kid?” It’s a very realistic scenario, and you’re just as likely to lose that kid to the local league club as you are the small kid stopping playing except the small kid will probably end up dropping out a few years down the track anyway

SS, RE: No team is a higher division.
It's a valid question, but I'm not sure home many clubs this would effect. I can't think of many, if any club that enter teams in the Sydney junior comp but have an entire year missing. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I can't think of any.

I also think if the ARU are doing this for safety reasons, you can;t have a monster running around just to avoid hurt feelings.

Like I have said, I don't think the ARU will have the balls to implement this properly anyway.

If you look at the chart from the Wellington Junior Club Rugby in New Zealand, it states

"The following weights are set by the Wellington Rugby Football Union. Individual clubs, committees, administrations or coaches have NO authority to alter these weights or make any kind of dispensation"

I doubt the ARU will follow the same stand, but we will have to wait and see.

 

[southsider]

SS, RE: No team is a higher division.
It's a valid question, but I'm not sure home many clubs this would effect. I can't think of many, if any club that enter teams in the Sydney junior comp but have an entire year missing. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I can't think of any.

I also think if the ARU are doing this for safety reasons, you can;t have a monster running around just to avoid hurt feelings.

Like I have said, I don't think the ARU will have the balls to implement this properly anyway.

If you look at the chart from the Wellington Junior Club Rugby in New Zealand, it states

"The following weights are set by the Wellington Rugby Football Union. Individual clubs, committees, administrations or coaches have NO authority to alter these weights or make any kind of dispensation"

I doubt the ARU will follow the same stand, but we will have to wait and see.

Apologies I meant higher age group, not division.

I don’t think most of the southern clubs put a team in every division I’d be fairly certain east and most of the west are the same id hazard a guess it’s only the north/north west in junior strong holds where they are consistently pumping out teams in every age group at most clubs

But ah well it’s done and dusted. Sit back and see what the results are I guess

 

[cyclopath]

And just to add to BH's points... NZ has been doing this since forever - it seems to work for them.

Pffft, what would they know?

 

[papabear]

Has touch union for juniors up until 10s gone nation wide or is that just on the north shore.

Eitherway it has been a blessing for local rugby league.

 

[neilc]

Has touch union for juniors up until 10s gone nation wide or is that just on the north shore.

Eitherway it has been a blessing for local rugby league.

In Qld tackle comes in at Under 8s.

 

[Bessa]

Has touch union for juniors up until 10s gone nation wide or is that just on the north shore.

Eitherway it has been a blessing for local rugby league.

Tackle in NSW from U8

 

[p.Tah]

Has touch union for juniors up until 10s gone nation wide or is that just on the north shore.

Eitherway it has been a blessing for local rugby league.

Where has this come from papabear?

They definitely have tackle from U8s upwards in Sydney, including the North Shore. https://www.sjru.com.au/junior-rugby/#Pathway

Chatswood Junior Rugby had a tackle clinic last weekend for U8-u10s.

 

[BAR]

Quick question, below is from the press release.

Any word on what will be "below or above an acceptable height or weight range"?

"From 2018, all Under 10 to Under 15 players deemed to be below or above an accepted height and weight range will now be subject to mandatory assessment by a qualified, independent Coach to determine which age bracket they are most suited to playing."

Bessa. As the parent of a player potentially going to be affected by the new policy I can tell you there remains ZERO word on how this policy is going to be implemented, what the size ranges are, when it will take effect, what the registration arrangements are if a player is regraded into an age group without a team, how the policy relates to rep rugby etc etc. In fact, what we have read in the paper is all of the available information for players and parents at this stage.

This is not a local club problem, it is a failure of the ARU to provide appropriate structure and support for the clubs to communicate and implement the policy. In short, while I think the idea is OK the implementation has all the hallmarks of a rushed PR exercise without the hard yards having been done for implementation. ("The ARU and SJRU have not been helpful to the clubs" being the feedback I got when I asked directly).

My son's registration is on hold until we have answers and there is no sign (or even reassurance) from his club that answers are coming. In addition to leaving the coach and team he loves, if my son is graded up it will be to an age group without a team at his club. Naturally he is reluctant to commit to play this year with so many unknowns. As such he is considering sticking to school rugby (where he already plays up).

 

[Pfitzy]

My seniors coach is Level 2 and he, along with the 30-odd other Level 2 coaches around the state, will be expected to eyeball and mark EVERY KID in the age brackets being discussed.

Not that I have to worry about my juniors: they don't exist as of last week's committee meeting.