Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Yep, mind you it's all fun to me. It's rugby, and the more I get , with a few upsets thrown in the more fun it is for me!!
July Internationals 2023 - matches not involving Australia
- Thread starter waiopehu oldboy
- Start date
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Of course Italy looked good! They are coached by Colt Crowley, he's a good Kaponga man!!
The Ghost of Raelene
Simon Poidevin (60)
You think they are regressing? I think they probably peaked in 2019 and are about where they normally sit if not more consistent at the moment. Certainly better than the US & Canada who have gone backwards and I fear Canada are gone for good.
The pacific island teams are a lot stronger this WC as are Italy, Georgia etc who have been considered at their level in the past.
I’d love to see them involved in more meaningful Tests. More argument to bring back a full slate of Pacific Nations Cup.
waiopehu oldboy
George Smith (75)
^ once the Nations Championship is up & running Japan (& probably Fiji) will get all the Tier 1 opposition they could possibly want. PNC (Pacific Nations Cup) will likely become part of NC Div 2.
Dctarget
Tim Horan (67)
I’m not reading that much into these results. Fiji aren’t better than England, Ireland aren’t only a try better than Samoa, SA aren’t 30 points or whatever it was better than NZ.
Not a coincidence that all these crazy upsets happened this weekend, the teams are doing silly buggers with intense training keeping their powder dry.
Not a coincidence that all these crazy upsets happened this weekend, the teams are doing silly buggers with intense training keeping their powder dry.
molman
Jim Lenehan (48)
I agree that they potentially peaked 2019. Still a lot of that team in this one, just in some cases a little older and maybe a tad slower. Just not sure they've kicked on as much as hoped after having a RWC and with the money kicking around their league.
They had excellent attention to detail and basic skills executed at speed the last two cycles. Whilst I think they have players now more capable of playing some good heads up Rugby, as a coherent whole I don't actually think they are as good irrespective of the other teams also improving.
molman
Jim Lenehan (48)
Yes, that wasn't all of Ireland's first choice running out, nor a home appearance for either team (though the French made it feel like home for Samoa), but the English result is pretty bad in the context of the team, the string of losses and the fact that it was in front of a home crowd becoming rather disillusioned by their national side. If Borthwick is playing some kind of long game he better be pretty sure that his team can suddenly turn it on, because the evidence isn't looking great.
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Highlander35
Steve Williams (59)
Borthwick's England is now 3 from 9: two of those wins have come against Wales going through their own crisis, and only by 10 & 2 points, the third coming against Italy. Worse than the win-loss, they look system-less: I still think their best performance came against us in his first game in charge.
I don't think it's his fault alone: he's a good coach probably in the hot seat a year or two early: but he seems too have no courage as a coach to create and enforce standards and stamp his mark on what way he wants the team to play.
I don't think it's his fault alone: he's a good coach probably in the hot seat a year or two early: but he seems too have no courage as a coach to create and enforce standards and stamp his mark on what way he wants the team to play.
molman
Jim Lenehan (48)
I'm curious what you judge him as a good coach on?
You propose that he is, but then are critical of him not enforcing standards, getting the team to implement his game plan, which is hardly the sign of a good coach to my mind?
At the end of the day coaches are judged on how their team performs, fair or not (I'm sure Rennie would have some thoughts). I know Ben Darwin's team over at Gainline Analytics have done some work in trying to isolate team success/impact of coaches from that of the players and systems etc.. that feed into their teams. Teams that under-performed while still appearing to do ok (ie. should have been doing better) and teams that over-performed while appearing to do poorly (ie. were more successful they they really had credit to for the team they had)..etc.
Wallabies for example have had some arguably good coaches over the years, but I don't feel that their slide to 9th in the world is necessarily a byproduct of good/bad national team coaches per-say as much as other factors. Likewise, I think sometimes certain coaches are just the right coach for a certain player group. Is Borthwick and his team the right people to extract the best from this English player group.. so far, I'd say no, but early days, but the fact that the team had issues under Eddie and now Borthwick coupled with the state of Premiership Rugby to my mind points to some bigger issues.
Anyway, they may still surprise and suddenly find their mojo in the RWC.
molman
Jim Lenehan (48)
molman
Jim Lenehan (48)
What was your point?
My point is that most coaches who make it to national setups have won things. Rennie, Cheika, Deans... Borthwick.
No coach who gets appointed to a national team would be considered a bad coach.... but are they good?
Dismal Pillock
Michael Lynagh (62)
molman
Jim Lenehan (48)
No I asked @Highlander35 what 'he' thought made him a good coach as he went on to outline how he lacked courage to enforce things etc.. so I found his assertion muddled and confusing.
There is no denying Borthwick's (& Sinfield.. Wigglesworth..etc..) success in that season (which I'm well aware of), but as I alluded to in my post above, it's hard to always isolate a coach from the other variables to say how good they are. Repeat performances across a range of scenarios (clubs/competitions) and setups is usually the best indication.
In terms of the Leicester turn around, there was a new CEO, a clearing of the board and a lot of back of house clean up, a bunch of young talent just peaking coming through their academy (pretty sure they were winning the U18's a couple years in a row)... so there was a number of things that probably went into making that season a success.
... maybe Borthwick will unlock this English team, but it isn't a good start.