- Status
Slash
Bill Watson (15)
Granted a number of players have gone of their own accord, but if you think that West Harbour have not appproached Steve Mafi, Sam Wykes and Scott Ferris to name a few in recent years then you need your head read. Maybe the approaches weren't made by phone call, which then would back up your naive statement.
Players changing clubs is just the accepted norm these days, but some of us old folk still find it hard to accept. Will Brame leaving Eastwood for Manly, then Manly for Norths leaves a bitter taste also. Or Mcgarity leaving Warringah for Manly then back again in a matter of weeks is completely astonishing.
Aussie D
Desmond Connor (43)
To get back on topic a little (we seem to be going down the old Shute Shield "this club stole my player" rants road again) but I would like to see a number of structural changes made to our junor development model.
1. Revert to the old weight-based grading system where you play against players roughly the same size as you (rep and school teams can be age-based) to compensate for the influx of larger Islander lads against smaller caucasian / asian youngsters (it would be great if we could entice more asians into rugby at a junior level).
2. Copy the NZ junior development model for skills and technical development (maybe adjusting it slightly for weight ranges for 7-9 year olds to start with 7s - breakdown, catch and pass and tackling skills. 10-12 weight ranges 10 a side with introduction to scrummaging and uncontested lineouts with lifting. From 13s (av. weight) up full 15 a side rugby copying the NZ structure).
3. Spend slightly less money trying to flog Wallaby test tickets and more money on advertising for kids to play rugby. Utilise the likes of Beale, Cooper, JO'C, Pocock in a modernised version of the old 'hit and run' ads featuring the Tim Horan look-alike from the early '90s.
The main thing we need though is a coordinated development model with all clubs across Australia having access to development coaches for players as well as seminars throughout the season (not just your level 0 and 1 certificates) for coaching development.
1. Revert to the old weight-based grading system where you play against players roughly the same size as you (rep and school teams can be age-based) to compensate for the influx of larger Islander lads against smaller caucasian / asian youngsters (it would be great if we could entice more asians into rugby at a junior level).
2. Copy the NZ junior development model for skills and technical development (maybe adjusting it slightly for weight ranges for 7-9 year olds to start with 7s - breakdown, catch and pass and tackling skills. 10-12 weight ranges 10 a side with introduction to scrummaging and uncontested lineouts with lifting. From 13s (av. weight) up full 15 a side rugby copying the NZ structure).
3. Spend slightly less money trying to flog Wallaby test tickets and more money on advertising for kids to play rugby. Utilise the likes of Beale, Cooper, JO'C, Pocock in a modernised version of the old 'hit and run' ads featuring the Tim Horan look-alike from the early '90s.
The main thing we need though is a coordinated development model with all clubs across Australia having access to development coaches for players as well as seminars throughout the season (not just your level 0 and 1 certificates) for coaching development.
Slash
Bill Watson (15)
You make some interesting points AD, and some that would work. However what would happen to the kid in a weight based competition who is forced to play up 2 or even 3 levels (ages) because of his size but his ability and capacity to handle the upgrade emotionally would normally dictate that he should stay where he is or even been 'downgraded'?
My argument is that you never heard George Gregan complaining when Jonah Lomu ran at him. George just backed himself that he had the technique to bring him down. The size argument seems to be brought up by the precious eastern suburbs or st ives parents who dont want little johnny playing against the big kid from canterbury. They put up size as the reason but I feel the real reason is not given because it just aint politically correct.
As for coaching courses, I agree. Maybe in the first instance the ARU should have coaches with credibility delivering the courses rather than teachers. At the moment, the coaching courses are designed so the ARU can tick off their OH&S and workplace training requirements.
Slash
Bill Watson (15)
And your point 3 is 100% correct. The ARU under JON 1 decided to blow the $45 million profit from 2003 RWC on an online database system that is still not able to deliver in what was promised. Imagine how the game could compete for the hearts and minds of the kids in western sydney if that money was used to combat the introduction of the GWS AFL side? Or if the money was used to create new junior clubs and support the existing ones.
Bowside
Peter Johnson (47)
Im just going to chime in quickly and say what i said in a thread a few months ago. Junior Club rugby should have some sort of weight for age grading system, until high school starts, at which point they should stop club rugby and let kids play for their school. I think that how they do it in NZ, and it makes more logistical sense as training sessions can be more frequent as well as longer. The only problem is the competitive structures are not yet in place, but once they sorted that out all would be rosy and players could then more back to club rugby once they finish school. To easy.
Aussie D
Desmond Connor (43)
The only flaws I can see in that argument is what about the areas outside Sydney / Brisbane / Canberra that don't have established school comps. Places like the Central Coast, Newcastle and the Illawarra that are league heartlands and would struggle to fill one side for each grade? The other argument would be about coaching - even though it has its disadvantages (which I alluded to earlier) local club sides are coached by parents who are rugby afficionados (or current / former grade players) who also attempt to instill in the players (or should) a sense of club loyalty and comradeship. It would be interesting to find what percentage of school-only rugby players continue to play the game once they have graduated.
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
Aussie D,
I like your second point. Its something I have been saying for a long time regarding schools development. The timeline I'd use is a little different but essentially the same. Primary School programs would be strictly focussed on 7s and skills development. In the first two years of High School 10s would be the version of choice, from 9th grade up the full 15 man version.
I'm not sure the weight for age thing is a good idea. I was a much bigger lad than my peers at 13. Under the weight for age system I would have been playing against 18 y.o. I tend to think a lot of the issues about size and such arise from the coddling nature of society these days. Facing bigger and supposedly stronger opponents builds character in my opinion. My kid brother is small for his age (height wise) but very solid and takes these sort of kids on regularly with success. Its all about attitude to be honest and parental influence. However, if a weight for age intiative were to be rolled out I'd suggest you follow the U85kg model where by kids under acertain weight in each age group play in a competition seperate from the bigger boys until say U15s. It may require 10s to be format of choice up until that age but to be honest that's not a bad thing as it would lead to greater levels of fitness and skill in the juniors.
Finally, we constantly hear about the lack of finances to really develop the game at the grassroots level. I think that's a load of rubbish. If any of you are familar with my Roar articles I take quite an interest in the game in the States. So can anyone answer me this, How can a Union much smaller in size and financial clout solely reliant on the revenue generated by is due paying members and minimal sponsorship manage to develop and administer a junior develop program that last year alone reached over 350,000 kids ( small fry in the US I know, but in 09 it was less than 30,000) while a first tier Union such as ours cannot? I know we have both the TryRugby and EdRugby programs but how many kids have they last reached in the year? Anywhere near 350,000, I doubt it. Maybe its time to look at the likes of the US and its Rookie Rugby program and see what they are doing right and there's no need for it to be expensive, just ask them for a copy and have a read.
I like your second point. Its something I have been saying for a long time regarding schools development. The timeline I'd use is a little different but essentially the same. Primary School programs would be strictly focussed on 7s and skills development. In the first two years of High School 10s would be the version of choice, from 9th grade up the full 15 man version.
I'm not sure the weight for age thing is a good idea. I was a much bigger lad than my peers at 13. Under the weight for age system I would have been playing against 18 y.o. I tend to think a lot of the issues about size and such arise from the coddling nature of society these days. Facing bigger and supposedly stronger opponents builds character in my opinion. My kid brother is small for his age (height wise) but very solid and takes these sort of kids on regularly with success. Its all about attitude to be honest and parental influence. However, if a weight for age intiative were to be rolled out I'd suggest you follow the U85kg model where by kids under acertain weight in each age group play in a competition seperate from the bigger boys until say U15s. It may require 10s to be format of choice up until that age but to be honest that's not a bad thing as it would lead to greater levels of fitness and skill in the juniors.
Finally, we constantly hear about the lack of finances to really develop the game at the grassroots level. I think that's a load of rubbish. If any of you are familar with my Roar articles I take quite an interest in the game in the States. So can anyone answer me this, How can a Union much smaller in size and financial clout solely reliant on the revenue generated by is due paying members and minimal sponsorship manage to develop and administer a junior develop program that last year alone reached over 350,000 kids ( small fry in the US I know, but in 09 it was less than 30,000) while a first tier Union such as ours cannot? I know we have both the TryRugby and EdRugby programs but how many kids have they last reached in the year? Anywhere near 350,000, I doubt it. Maybe its time to look at the likes of the US and its Rookie Rugby program and see what they are doing right and there's no need for it to be expensive, just ask them for a copy and have a read.
lincoln
Bob Loudon (25)
Not so sure you are on track here - having been one of those parents it is not a pretty sight watching your sub-50kg son in the U12's (1) try to tackle a rampaging 95kg kid (who is now playing first grade - lovely kid/lovely parents) or (2) come up against a team of them who manhandle the kids - most mums would never allow their sons to play if they witnessed it.
One age up for the big guys through to about the 14's and one age down for the small guys through to say the 16's would work for me.
S
scampi
Guest
This is a mothers point of view. My son started playing Rugby when he was 5. I remember watching him in under 12's on the back of a giant man-child trying to bring him down as this monster ran over the top of everything and everybody in his way. My kid wasn't small but he looked like a baby Koala. They had a deck chair on the sideline so that this kid could rest every 15 minutes and gather his strength for another onslaught. The other team used to chant his name when he lumbered out onto the field (different rules must have appplied for leaving the field of play). My son is 22 now, I can't count how many games and how many injuries there have been and I still feel the same fear and to be honest sometimes horror that I felt when I witnessed him play his first rep game. I still go to every game in the misguided belief that I can keep him safe. One thing that never entered my mind was to stop him from playing the game that has defined and shaped him into the person he is today.
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
i have mixed feelings about age/weight etc. i dont have kids so i know this is going to sound harsh, but i believe we will train and develop a whole bunch of underskilled wimps if this goes any higher than primary school.
i was chatting to a friend who coaches rugby league and they are trialing this system for a while, he said he has a team of props and no playmakers cos most of the playmakers are small therefore are in a team where there not put under the stress that helps them with there decision making to better develop there game. he said his team is full of one out hit ups and wonky kicks while the small team reseambles touch footy.
i was chatting to a friend who coaches rugby league and they are trialing this system for a while, he said he has a team of props and no playmakers cos most of the playmakers are small therefore are in a team where there not put under the stress that helps them with there decision making to better develop there game. he said his team is full of one out hit ups and wonky kicks while the small team reseambles touch footy.
Bowside
Peter Johnson (47)
I think age for weight should end at U12's, and should be conducted in such a way that you dont end up with kids playing with anyone more than 2 years older than them. The difference in emotional development would too be to frustrating for the older kids, and intensity of training maybe a bit much for the younger kids. I use to play 2 games of club rugby on a weekend (my age group and then second half in the age group above), which was the norm at my club since we didn't have great numbers.
Aussie D, I totally understand what you are saying, I think it has more to do with the fact teaching is a female dominated profession. This is where the ARU would need to provide support in helping schools establish a rugby program and train coaches. I dont know if they already a development frame work in place, but if not they certainly need to develop one that includes things like recommended training/selection drills and strength and conditioning programs.
Many of the schools in queensland (especially small new private ones), seem to think that having a rugby union team somehow add's to the 'prestige' of the school. For better or worse, the ARU could defiantly capitalise on this and talk up the benefits of rugby culture (in the corporate world and whatnot) as a way of selling it to schools that traditionally play league, soccer or aussie rules. But like I said before, they need to create competitions for the schools to play in otherwise all the hard work will be for nothing.
Aussie D, I totally understand what you are saying, I think it has more to do with the fact teaching is a female dominated profession. This is where the ARU would need to provide support in helping schools establish a rugby program and train coaches. I dont know if they already a development frame work in place, but if not they certainly need to develop one that includes things like recommended training/selection drills and strength and conditioning programs.
Many of the schools in queensland (especially small new private ones), seem to think that having a rugby union team somehow add's to the 'prestige' of the school. For better or worse, the ARU could defiantly capitalise on this and talk up the benefits of rugby culture (in the corporate world and whatnot) as a way of selling it to schools that traditionally play league, soccer or aussie rules. But like I said before, they need to create competitions for the schools to play in otherwise all the hard work will be for nothing.
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
Exactly. The ARU and the state Unions need to create the opportunities to get the game into more schools through competition. In a place where I grew up with large NZ (descent) and PI populations creating proper schools competitions would get a lot more people into the game. At the moment there are only two teams in the area being the Campbelltown Harlequins and Camden Rams. Both need to either travel to Wollongong or greater Sydney in order to play (seniors play in different competitions) which many find restrictive. League flourishes because its competition is entirely locally based with teams easily within reach. By creating schools competitions, the opportunity to play will be created. This could very well flow in the club game.
- Status