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John I. Dent Cup 2016 - ACT Premier Rugby

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bluebags

Larry Dwyer (12)
From the Vikings website:

Premier Second Grade
Second grade needed to one up Colts and First Division First grade as they took down Wests with a commanding 59-5 victory.
Although, Wests jumped out to a quick 5-0 lead, Vikings answered with Sam Giltrap, comfortable in his favourite position as fullback, evening the score at 5-5. Giltrap was no stranger to the try line Saturday as he scored 4 tries on the day proving his time in the 1st Grade squad has been valuable.
One of the better tries of the day came when Blake Henman played the ball to Junior Sotogi, who found Joe Langtry on the outside. As Langry ran down the sideline, he offloaded to Travis Pula and finished off the playwith a final pass back to Blake Henman to take a 19-5 lead heading to the break. Todd Carney contributed the other try in the first half.
The scoring continued in the second half as Pula, Nic Murray, and Michael Barnetson all contributed, and Willoughby Axelson converted 7 from 9 on the day.
Second grade is holding strong for a spot in the finals, with only two games and a bye remaining.

By Kieran Deck​
Premier First Grade
Vikings winger Jake Knight celebrated his 100th game for the club with a hat trick of tries against Wests, as the competition leaders raced to a 44-point victory.
The Lions opened the scoring off a penalty kick but the Vikings turned in an impressive second half to win 64-20.
Tuggeranong were without star lock Ben Hyne, who watched on the sidelines in a moonboot and crutches after injuring his ankle in his debut for the Brumbies the night before. The severity of the injury and how long he’s out is not yet known.
Hyne’s absence meant U20s player Darcy Swain had another opportunity to start and he proved a handful for Wests’ defence.
The ground had recovered well from Canberra’s recent rain except for one deep muddy patch that played havoc on more than one occasion.
Wests had the better of the field position in the first 20-minutes of the game but handling errors prevented them from building pressure on the competition leaders.
The Vikings defence finally cracked in the 23rd minute when Wests used a line out drive to the left of the uprights. Seb Larroway added the two points and the Lions led 10-0.
Vikings hit back minutes later off a set piece play, when Isaac Thompson ran a hard line to cross next to the posts, 10-7.
Wests controlled the momentum for the remainder of the half, but despite repeat phases in Vikings’ territory, weren’t able to extend their lead.
The second half started with a bang for the Vikings, who were coming off a disappointing one-point loss to Gungahlin last week. A Thompson chip kick was regathered by Jake Rakic, who passed to Dean Oakman-Hunt who scored, doing no harm to his bid for a Brumbies cap.
The ball bounced off the upright and in, taking the Vikings to a 14-10 lead and opening the floodgates.
Vikings attacked Wests’ right side defence again and this time Rakic added the five points himself.
Wests appeared a different side as Vikings found their groove. The halves combination of Ryne Bowden and Thomspon was too quick for the home side, and out wide Robinson and Rakic regularly broke the advantage line.
A second Thompson try later, Ernest Suavai crossed on the far side of the field. Thompson missed his first kick of the day.
Minutes later Jake Knight made it easier for Thompson, scoring under the posts thanks to a brilliant Suavai offload after another break from inside Vikings’ half.
At 40-points to 10, there was around 20-minutes to go and Wests were pushing it uphill.
They finally hit back in the 60th minute thanks to some individual Brodie Leber brilliance.
The rest of the game was a training run for the rampant first grade side. Jake Knight nabbed his brace with a kick and chase in front of his fans.
The forwards joined the romp in the 65th minute, Joey Vejvoda taking the team total past 50. But Knight wasn’t done yet on his big day, living up to his nickname, beating seaveral defenders by ‘snaking’ his way down the left flank.
Wests added five more points in the final minutes but the sun had set at Jamieson oval, along with their chances of a finals appearance in 2016.
 

No.8

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Don't disagree with the approach they are taking but from Dean O-H perspective you would have to wonder why they had you in training and various other extended squads throughout the year. If he isn't getting called up at a time when every back rower in the club has fallen over then when will he??

Have to agree - I thought this is what the Brumbies may do - go with an extra 2nd rower and they can move back if need be - but as you said what is the point of him being around the squad, sitting on the bench as 24th man for the whole game last week and then when they are in need of a back-rower they simply take an extra 2nd rower - I get that it is the pointy end of the season and I guess they are going for experience but where do you draw that line between having trust in a players and just giving them the shits.
 

No.8

Phil Hardcastle (33)
I think it is a bit of a concern for the brumbies going into next year with 3 mediocre hookers on the roster. I'd rather see them target and recruit a quality hooker or give a nod to a solid up and comer to speed track his development with a view to the future. Josh M-R, Siai and Able are all good back ups and you could run with any one of them but I can't see value in having 3 plodders that are at the end of their careers filling spots.

Haha agree with you again - Saia, Josh Mann-Rea and Abel are all solid players but are they Super Rugby starting, week in week out players? I don't think so - Saia 4,5,6 years ago yes, Abel? prob never really given a shot - in NRC he was good but for Easts this year has been out-played by other un-contracted hookers and Josh Mann-Rea has some good experience but is fairly old for a rugby player now so how much do you really want to keep investing in him.

3 players the Brumbies should seriously be looking at are -

- McInernery from Royals

- Elliot from Whites

- Tai from Royals (Colts player)


I know there is also the South African guy from Uni Norths aswell but honestly have not seen enough to judge yet.


Hooker is a position where a player in the ACT could make some impact - Australian Rugby as a whole has a real lack of good Hookers - and any three of the above with some development could make a good Super Rugby player.

More than likely though the Brumbies will prob bring in a Queenslander, New Zealander or South African in the next 12-24 months and the 3 guys above wont get a look in lol. . .
 

macka_au

Allen Oxlade (6)
Haha agree with you again - Saia, Josh Mann-Rea and Abel are all solid players but are they Super Rugby starting, week in week out players? I don't think so - Saia 4,5,6 years ago yes, Abel? prob never really given a shot - in NRC he was good but for Easts this year has been out-played by other un-contracted hookers and Josh Mann-Rea has some good experience but is fairly old for a rugby player now so how much do you really want to keep investing in him.

3 players the Brumbies should seriously be looking at are -

- McInernery from Royals

- Elliot from Whites

- Tai from Royals (Colts player)


I know there is also the South African guy from Uni Norths aswell but honestly have not seen enough to judge yet.


Hooker is a position where a player in the ACT could make some impact - Australian Rugby as a whole has a real lack of good Hookers - and any three of the above with some development could make a good Super Rugby player.

More than likely though the Brumbies will prob bring in a Queenslander, New Zealander or South African in the next 12-24 months and the 3 guys above wont get a look in lol.


Haha agree with you again - Saia, Josh Mann-Rea and Abel are all solid players but are they Super Rugby starting, week in week out players? I don't think so - Saia 4,5,6 years ago yes, Abel? prob never really given a shot - in NRC he was good but for Easts this year has been out-played by other un-contracted hookers and Josh Mann-Rea has some good experience but is fairly old for a rugby player now so how much do you really want to keep investing in him.

3 players the Brumbies should seriously be looking at are -

- McInernery from Royals

- Elliot from Whites

- Tai from Royals (Colts player)


I know there is also the South African guy from Uni Norths aswell but honestly have not seen enough to judge yet.


Hooker is a position where a player in the ACT could make some impact - Australian Rugby as a whole has a real lack of good Hookers - and any three of the above with some development could make a good Super Rugby player.

More than likely though the Brumbies will prob bring in a Queenslander, New Zealander or South African in the next 12-24 months and the 3 guys above wont get a look in lol.

For the sake of my rant I'm defining 'local player' as someone who has spent 3+ years playing in Canberra.


It's quite frustrating as a Brumbies and Local rugby fan. When we look at the all time great players who've come through at the Brumbies most of them were either local players or came to the club as young guys. (Larkham, Gregan, Roff, G Smith came to Canberra as an 18 year old, there's more but i'd just be rambling). Those premiership teams were littered with local guys.

It now seems to be that no matter how good you are as a local player you get overlooked. I think they believe that there's always going to be someone better coming out of Sydney or Queensland. We've seen this happen to a number of players Cree, Hawke, Raines, Clousten there's probably more. We're seeing it again here with Dean O-H and Penca. It's frustrating.

For the Brumbies to come out and say we're looking to promote John I dent players and then two days later sign two guys from outside the state is just annoying.

I'm very interested to see what happens with the four guys picked in the Aus 20's side. I've not seen any announcements regarding them signing. I know Jooste is locked up for another year and isn't really local. But what about Lomax, Jackson-Hope and Sione? all went to school here. You'd think they'd at least be willing to invest in them?
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
We've seen this happen to a number of players Cree, Hawke, Raines, Clousten there's probably more. We're seeing it again here with Dean O-H and Penca. It's frustrating.

You select the best players available, regardless of where they come from...........

Are any of those guys better than the players that were selected ahead of them?

Thankfully we're seeing a resurgence of Canberra representation lately, thanks in part to the Brumbies keeping their squad in the JID, and fringe players getting opportunities to step up in the NRC............

Jackson-Hope will pick up a contract for next year, and Lomax is currently a Brumbies developing player.
 

macka_au

Allen Oxlade (6)
You select the best players available, regardless of where they come from.....

Are any of those guys better than the players that were selected ahead of them?

Jackson-Hope will pick up a contract for next year, and Lomax is currently a Brumbies developing player.


I'm not really sure of the point you're trying to make. But I will say this.

Had the Brumbies been willing to invest in Raines he perhaps could have been a better and cheaper option than Dowsett.

Had they been willing to invest in Hawke he maybe could have developed into a better and cheaper alternative to andrew smith.

Cree would have allowed them more flexibility going forward.

What about Rowan Perry? the brumbies basically told him his services weren't required.

And can we talk about the debacle that was the Albert Anae signing? They spend over $100,000 on a hooker who didn't even end up playing hooker (at club level) and then 3/4 of the way through the season decides to leave. They could have locked up Mcinerny, Elliot and Tai on a combination of EPS, development and supplemental contracts for less than what they spent on him.

I don't disagree with the notion you pick the best player. But don't treat us like idiots and say you're going to promote local players and then sign guys from elsewhere.

My contention is that rather than paying big money to relocate guys (who sit on the bench or don't play at all see Anae) Why not invest that money in 2 or 3 local guys and see how they develop?
 

No.8

Phil Hardcastle (33)
I'm not really sure of the point you're trying to make. But I will say this.

Had the Brumbies been willing to invest in Raines he perhaps could have been a better and cheaper option than Dowsett.

Had they been willing to invest in Hawke he maybe could have developed into a better and cheaper alternative to andrew smith.

Cree would have allowed them more flexibility going forward.

What about Rowan Perry? the brumbies basically told him his services weren't required.

And can we talk about the debacle that was the Albert Anae signing? They spend over $100,000 on a hooker who didn't even end up playing hooker (at club level) and then 3/4 of the way through the season decides to leave. They could have locked up Mcinerny, Elliot and Tai on a combination of EPS, development and supplemental contracts for less than what they spent on him.

I don't disagree with the notion you pick the best player. But don't treat us like idiots and say you're going to promote local players and then sign guys from elsewhere.

My contention is that rather than paying big money to relocate guys (who sit on the bench or don't play at all see Anae) Why not invest that money in 2 or 3 local guys and see how they develop?

Could not agree more with your posts mate - it is extremely frustrating.

Tim Cree and Rowan Perry I think were/are some of the best loose forwards running around in Club Rugby at the moment (Cree now in England) - Cree with the right development could of been anything really - but his time has now passed.

Perry hopefully gets a shot with the Tahs next year but you would think with his sort of talent the Force might look at him - if not and I was him I would be looking to England and France - Pro D2 level - again Perry with the right development could be/could of been anything.

Like yourself I am not going to go into a rant but when you have/had guys like Perry, Cree, Penca, Oj Noa, Oakman-Hunt, McInernery, Eliot, Tai etc in the local comp and basically home-grown talent then yes these guys are good enough and better than some of the players the Brumbies are signing outside of Canberra.

The new qld flanker the brumbies just signed last week - why not offer Oj Noa a contract, why not Oakman-Hunt?

Same goes for Michael Wells - why not Penca, why not Oakman-Hunt or Perry?

As you mentioned Anae - why not Tai, or McInernery or Elliot?


It's just confusing that not more local guys are moving up - do Brumbies simply have lack of development programs so they simply don't know about these players or do they just not trust in their own development?


I'll stop there because I could rant all night haha - but it's not fair on these guys who bust their ass week in week out for years and don't get given a shot.
 
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Istanbul

Vay Wilson (31)
I'm all for providing a pathway for local players but each S15 club only has so many places on the roster and you generally need to fill them with the best available players regardless of where they originate from.

Has Tai even played first grade in JID yet?
 

No.8

Phil Hardcastle (33)
I'm all for providing a pathway for local players but each S15 club only has so many places on the roster and you generally need to fill them with the best available players regardless of where they originate from.

Has Tai even played first grade in JID yet?

Of course always pick the best players - but I guess the point here is that they prob haven't been the best players and the Brumbies would of more than likely got more out of the local guys at a cheaper price.

Yea Tai has played off the bench - possibly started but with McInernery there this year it has of course limited his 1st grade game time - which I don't think is a bad thing - if McInernery wasn't there he more than likely would of been the starting No.2 for Royals.

I did see him playing flanker acouple of times and he would prob make a good flanker > right build > strong > powerful etc - but I think for the good of his career he needs to stay at Hooker.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
I'm not really sure of the point you're trying to make.


I think it was pretty obvious - there's limited spots in the squad and you pick the best players you can get........

Albert Anae was a test capped Super Rugby quality player who could cover two front row positions.......

That's why he's been selected over somebody like McInerney, who is quite young and inexperienced (particularly for a front rower), but who is also part of the Brumbies development program............

Regardless, both of them were behind Robbie Abel, another Canberra product.........

Oakman-Hunt is unlucky not to get a bench spot this week, but the two guys selected ahead of him have proven themselves for the Brumbies.........

I think some of you guys need to take the blinkers off........

I mean, why don't Easts 2nd grade get a go? It's just not fair!
 

No.8

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Round 15 -


Uni V Wests @ANU

This will be a tough old game - alot of back n forth - Uni Norths are only 4 points behind Royals at the moment so they honestly could still sneak into the top 4 with 3 Rounds to go - their run home looks like so -

- Wests
- Whites
- Eagles

If they can get a win V's Wests and even possibly sneak a win or keep close to Whites/Eagles they could be in with a shot - Royals run home is below.

Tipping Uni by 7



Royals V Whites @Phillip

Royals at home are always a stronger side - they have had a very mixed season making it hard to predict an outcome - I think it will be another slugfest for the Whites - Whites by 4

As mentioned above Uni are 4 points behind Royals - their run home looks like so -

- Whites
- Easts
- Vikings

Again they are going to need to get a win or 2 to stay just in front - I think a bonus point win V's Easts could lock up a 4th Spot for them.


Tuggeranong V Easts @Viking Park

After watching Easts last week - this could be any sort of score for Vikings - with good goal kicking - this could be up there with a 80,90,100 point win.

Easts hopefully kick it up a gear and have not lost all motivation considering their season is over.

I also watched most of 2nd grade Whites V's Easts last week and Whites were prob in 2nd gear the whole game - so Vikings could have a few big scores coming on Saturday.

Vikings by 80





Eagles - BYE
 

No.8

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Mentioning Easts above - has anyone heard much about what is going on at that club?

As mentioned I watched most of 2nd grade last week and they were an extremely negative side - really not good sportsmanship at all in that game.

I don't like to talk down on a club but who is finally going to take the club, shake it up and make some changes?

They sort of did it this year but seems to have fallen away as the season went on and I would expect that players they brought in will more than likely drop off.


I know its little things but even when they had injured players the reaction time for the med's was stupid slow, even in 2nd grade couldn't even wear the same jersey's i.e some guys had new Easts jerseys on, some old, different shorts, socks etc, their colts team is gone, and their connection with RMC has disappeared so I can't remember the last time RMC/Easts played 4ths this year.

What is the answer?
 

macka_au

Allen Oxlade (6)
I think it was pretty obvious - there's limited spots in the squad and you pick the best players you can get....

Albert Anae was a test capped Super Rugby quality player who could cover two front row positions...

That's why he's been selected over somebody like McInerney, who is quite young and inexperienced (particularly for a front rower), but who is also part of the Brumbies development program....

Regardless, both of them were behind Robbie Abel, another Canberra product...

Oakman-Hunt is unlucky not to get a bench spot this week, but the two guys selected ahead of him have proven themselves for the Brumbies...

I think some of you guys need to take the blinkers off....

I mean, why don't Easts 2nd grade get a go? It's just not fair!


You're sort of missing the point.

The point i'm trying to get across is that when you have
Stephen Moore (test capped)
Josh Man-Rea (test capped)
and Robbie Able

Why would you go and spend another $100,000 or more on a fourth choice hooker? Why not allocate that money to a couple of young guys and give them an opportunity. Especially when you consider both Moore and Man-Rea are in their 30's?

FYI Anae isn't test capped he was invited to camp but never played.

I'm done talking about this.

Slim should you want to discuss further please contact me directly.

Let's get back to what's important. John I dent cup!

Lomax and Jackson-Hope are back in for Vikings I think they're resting Knight. Otherwise unchanged.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
You're sort of missing the point.

The point i'm trying to get across is that when you have
Stephen Moore (test capped)
Josh Man-Rea (test capped)
and Robbie Able

Why would you go and spend another $100,000 or more on a fourth choice hooker? Why not allocate that money to a couple of young guys and give them an opportunity. Especially when you consider both Moore and Man-Rea are in their 30's?
.


They didn't, because Anae was signed BEFORE Abel.........


FYI Anae isn't test capped he was invited to camp but never played.

Yes, you're right.
 

Istanbul

Vay Wilson (31)
Mentioning Easts above - has anyone heard much about what is going on at that club?

As mentioned I watched most of 2nd grade last week and they were an extremely negative side - really not good sportsmanship at all in that game.

I don't like to talk down on a club but who is finally going to take the club, shake it up and make some changes?

They sort of did it this year but seems to have fallen away as the season went on and I would expect that players they brought in will more than likely drop off.


I know its little things but even when they had injured players the reaction time for the med's was stupid slow, even in 2nd grade couldn't even wear the same jersey's i.e some guys had new Easts jerseys on, some old, different shorts, socks etc, their colts team is gone, and their connection with RMC has disappeared so I can't remember the last time RMC/Easts played 4ths this year.

What is the answer?

Tough question No 8 and I suspect there isn't an easy answer but I'll give it a crack. I think Easts and unis are two clubs that are destined to struggle. Easts are a basket case and unis while having a great season and knocking on the door of top 4 will only make up numbers should they scrape in. I see Vikings, QBN, Wests, royals, and Darra all being able to make a challenge for the flag over the next 10 years but I don't see unis or Easts giving it a shake. I can see unis being competitive and maybe cracking top 4 but I can't see them winning one. That is not healthy for any comp. JID 2016 has been the best in years due to its close and competitive nature. Putting club loyalties aside isn't that really what we should be aiming for? As great as it was for the respective clubs Royals dominance through the 80s and Tuggies run through the 2000's didn't do much for the broader comp. I think the AFL is probably the benchmark for a comp that promotes a level playing field. Sounds odd given Hawthorns recent dominance but I base the comment on the leg up weaker clubs like GWS are given to ensure they are competitive sooner rather than later. I'm neither a Uni or Easts supporter but for the good of the comp these clubs need success. If this means that Brumby allocations go solely towards these clubs then so be it. I know it is difficult to to make hard and fast rules and brumby players that have come up through a particular club should have the opportunity to stay at that club but I think we need to come up with a system that gives strong preferential treatment to the struggling clubs.
 

Istanbul

Vay Wilson (31)
You Canberrans will claim anyone won't you, Robbie is from Griffith, NSW not ACT..

I will admit that he comes from within the ACT/SNSW Region though.

I think I saw someone trying to claim George Smith earlier as well.... Manly, Tonga, Canberra.... Close enough if it suits the argument!
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
You Canberrans will claim anyone won't you, Robbie is from Griffith, NSW not ACT..

I will admit that he comes from within the ACT/SNSW Region though.



Er, he's an ACT junior who went to St Edmunds.........

And to be pedantic - he was born in Orange, and spent his early years in NZ before moving to Canberra.
 

No.8

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Tough question No 8 and I suspect there isn't an easy answer but I'll give it a crack. I think Easts and unis are two clubs that are destined to struggle. Easts are a basket case and unis while having a great season and knocking on the door of top 4 will only make up numbers should they scrape in. I see Vikings, QBN, Wests, royals, and Darra all being able to make a challenge for the flag over the next 10 years but I don't see unis or Easts giving it a shake. I can see unis being competitive and maybe cracking top 4 but I can't see them winning one. That is not healthy for any comp. JID 2016 has been the best in years due to its close and competitive nature. Putting club loyalties aside isn't that really what we should be aiming for? As great as it was for the respective clubs Royals dominance through the 80s and Tuggies run through the 2000's didn't do much for the broader comp. I think the AFL is probably the benchmark for a comp that promotes a level playing field. Sounds odd given Hawthorns recent dominance but I base the comment on the leg up weaker clubs like GWS are given to ensure they are competitive sooner rather than later. I'm neither a Uni or Easts supporter but for the good of the comp these clubs need success. If this means that Brumby allocations go solely towards these clubs then so be it. I know it is difficult to to make hard and fast rules and brumby players that have come up through a particular club should have the opportunity to stay at that club but I think we need to come up with a system that gives strong preferential treatment to the struggling clubs.


Yea mate it is a tough one - I think Uni are in a good place, they have some good management, they seem to have some decent money now and they are slowly getting stronger - I agree if they made the Top 4 that they would simply be making up the numbers - but hey they have a real shot at doing that this year and that will be 1 place better than where they finished last year - so at least they are moving forward be it slowly they are moving and they have tested some teams this year for the full 80.

Easts on the other hand possibly haven't gone backwards this year due to sort of getting a Colts Team together, sort of hooking up with RMC and sort of recruiting some players - so they have prob gone sideways but in a good direction if that makes sense haha.

I don't know much about Easts or the internal management/running of the club - but looking from outside in they seem to be running the place like a circus - just all over the place and like I said in a previous post a very negative vibe comes from the players.


Easts technically should be one of the strongest clubs in Canberra, they are the oldest club, in one of the richest areas of Canberra and they have 2 of the best Rugby Schools in Australia within walking distance of them - I just don't know what went wrong?

The issue now is that they are so bad that kids coming from Eddies, Grammar etc who have a shot at higher honors are no way going to Easts - Vikings, or Whites is where they can be seen.


I don't know what the answer is - more brumbies maybe? but is that simply putting a band-aid over a shark bite, I have even brought up before a draft system with 1st and 2nd XV players - but that brings up a whole different issue and I don't even think I like the idea haha.
 
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