Japan vs Wallabies, Nissan Stadium, Yokohama, Sat 4th Nov 4.40pm AEST

[tragic]

I would have been far less troubled if Cheika announced he was going to rest Foley for this game due to his high workload. It's not a bad game to see what hodge or Beale have to offer in the 10 role given Quade is clearly on the outer.
Many including myself have called for depth to be developed at 10 as it has been in every other position. It's vital for our chances in 2019.
It's the fact he was forced into a last minute reshuffle that questions his strategy and selections.
If this was the week of the England game it would be an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Braveheart81]

Cheika has said all season that Hodge and Beale are his backup 10s.

You can certainly argue that he should have Cooper as his backup 10 but clearly Cheika doesn't view that as his best option.

It's hardly a reasonable criticism to say that Cheika is now faced with a situation he is unprepared for by having to select Hodge at 10. He's stated all season that Hodge was one of his two options there.

Now it may well be a disaster and if it is, Cheika is completely to blame for that. We'll find out tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Derpus]

He even says in the Video a couple posts ago that Hodge has been training at 10 all season. People will jump anything.

 

[tragic]

Oh because the only difference in a comprehensive 3-0 series defeat to England was the kicking? fuck me.

I'd rather not thanks - I have higher standards than that.
It was the major factor - not just conversions but kicking from hand. In fact I said at the time if we swapped 10s I think we would have taken the series.
We were constantly pinned in our 22 with no exit strategy other than to finally infringe and go back to the half way. Clearing kicks often went out just on the 22. Combine that with missing conversions and we didn't stand a chance. In at least one game we pulled off our usual "score more tries but lose trick", which I have rarely seen done with such aplomb by any other top 3 side.
England will play for territory again this year off the back of a superior kicking game. Hopefully either hodge takes on the clearing role or our discipline continues to improve, or the result will be similar.

 

[Derpus]

The English scores in the three games were 39, 23, 44. It was hardly the classic Northern death by a thousand penalties. They fucking pumped all across the park.

 

[Slim 293]

It was the major factor - not just conversions but kicking from hand. In fact I said at the time if we swapped 10s I think we would have taken the series.

The missed conversions wouldn't have made much of a difference....... it wouldn't have won us the first test, and it had no bearing on the second. Kicking from hand was certainly an issue........ but we also struggled with our lineout in the first and third tests. And there were certainly more than a few passengers in that squad.

 

[fatprop]

I'd rather not thanks - I have higher standards than that.
It was the major factor - not just conversions but kicking from hand. In fact I said at the time if we swapped 10s I think we would have taken the series.
We were constantly pinned in our 22 with no exit strategy other than to finally infringe and go back to the half way. Clearing kicks often went out just on the 22. Combine that with missing conversions and we didn't stand a chance. In at least one game we pulled off our usual "score more tries but lose trick", which I have rarely seen done with such aplomb by any other top 3 side.
England will play for territory again this year off the back of a superior kicking game. Hopefully either hodge takes on the clearing role or our discipline continues to improve, or the result will be similar.

The challenge then was the lack of other kicking options in that team so the poms could focus down Foley

That has been sorted by having both Genia and Beale back, and Hodge finding a spot, and having a team prepared to chase those kicks. All of a sudden there are options

 

[tragic]

The English scores in the three games were 39, 23, 44. It was hardly the classic Northern death by a thousand penalties. They fucking pumped all across the park.

We scored more tries in game 1. Foley converted 1/4. Farrell kicked 5/6.
We scored more tries in game 3. Foley kicked 6/11. Farrel kicked 9/10.
We were booted from the park. Both off the tee and in general play.

 

[tragic]

The challenge then was the lack of other kicking options in that team so the poms could focus down Foley

That has been sorted by having both Genia and Beale back, and Hodge finding a spot, and having a team prepared to chase those kicks. All of a sudden there are options

Agree 100%.
But it baffles me why we still often put foley in the pocket in our 22.
Makes no sense when his distance is so much shorter than Beale and Hodge and his trajectory has hearts in mouths for a charge down try.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Cheika has said all season that Hodge and Beale are his backup 10s.

You can certainly argue that he should have Cooper as his backup 10 but clearly Cheika doesn't view that as his best option.

It's hardly a reasonable criticism to say that Cheika is now faced with a situation he is unprepared for by having to select Hodge at 10. He's stated all season that Hodge was one of his two options there.

Now it may well be a disaster and if it is, Cheika is completely to blame for that. We'll find out tomorrow afternoon.

So he should have given him (or them) time there at some point. No doing so just invites trouble - he's lucky the issue has come up in a game where it should not matter.

 

[tragic]

The missed conversions wouldn't have made much of a difference... it wouldn't have won us the first test, and it had no bearing on the second. Kicking from hand was certainly an issue.... but we also struggled with our lineout in the first and third tests. And there were certainly more than a few passengers in that squad.

Kicking went a long way towards losing us game 1. Sure there were other issues.
Conversions would have made it a 2 point ball game.
But the kicking in general play was appalling and the 7 kickable penalties given away whilst trapped in our own half vs the two England gave away were the killers. We would finally get a turnover in our 22 only to boot it out with a 10-15m gain and give them another crack. Eventually the pressure told and bingo 3 pts.
Frustrating series because ball in hand I thought we had the goods.

 

[fatprop]

Agree 100%.
But it baffles me why we still often put foley in the pocket in our 22.
Makes no sense when his distance is so much shorter than Beale and Hodge and his trajectory has hearts in mouths for a charge down try.

I would actually prefer the 9 box kicking the clearance, a decent screen and there is no need for the 15m pass backwards.

I think one of the best thing about the Lions clearances was having Murray box kick and the superior chase to stop the quick lineout

Chuck it back 15m, no one is onside and unless the ball goes into the stands there is a quick lineout on with little defensive line

 

[Slim 293]

Conversions would have made it a 2 point ball game.

Actually, in the first test it would've made it a 5 point ball game........ he missed 3 conversions and we lost by 11 points.
And your stats were wrong - Farrell kicked 9/10 (3/3 conv and 6/7 pen), soooooooooooooo..........

 

[Braveheart81]

So he should have given him (or them) time there at some point. No doing so just invites trouble - he's lucky the issue has come up in a game where it should not matter.

There was always going to be a first time where it happened. At least in this situation they've had the week to prepare for it with that as the plan and have also had a lot more of the season working on it in training. Maybe doing it at the back end of one of the Pumas tests could have been an option but those games were close for a long time.

 

[fatprop]

I was at the last England test at the SFS. We were never in that game to win it, we were beaten by a far superior team

I expect them to spank us at twickers as well, this is a really, really good English side

 

[Derpus]

I was at the last England test at the SFS. We were never in that game to win it, we were beaten by a far superior team

I expect them to spank us at twickers as well, this is a really, really good English side

They have quite a few injuries. Hopefully we can at least run them close.

 

[TOCC]

Actually, in the first test it would've made it a 5 point ball game.... he missed 3 conversions and we lost by 11 points.
And your stats were wrong - Farrell kicked 9/10 (3/3 conv and 6/7 pen), soooooooooooooo....

Your missing the substance of the discussion, he isn’t talking just about kicking from the tee

Had Foley converted the first 2 tries it would have meant a 14point lead after only 20mins. He didn’t and then Foley then dropped a pass from Folau which England regathered and scored from.

General play Foley was fairly good the England series, but his kicking both for goal and in play was poor. In the 2nd test he missed finding touch twice from a penalty. He seems to have improved in that aspect in 2017, but he still isn’t what he was at the 2015 RWC.

 

[Derpus]

What's his kicking percentage this year? Must be reasonable given that 19 kicks in a row.

He's definitely benefited from having others who can kick out of hand around him.

 

[Slim 293]

Your missing the substance of the discussion, he isn’t talking just about kicking from the tee

I don't believe I am, having also addressed general kicking among other things............ But to tragic's specific point about goal kicking - it really wasn't a deciding factor in the end as even if Foley had have converted all of his goals it wouldn't have mattered as England still scored significantly more points than us, and if we're going to go down the murky path of 'what ifs' then Farrell also missed a penalty goal. The fact that we gave away so many penalties within kicking range was a far bigger issue.

 

[Tomikin]

I just don't see that we ever had an opportunity to bring in a second flyhalf in the past couple of months. Ideally we would have blooded one in the June test window but we were playing so badly we had to put our best 15 on the paddock. Hell, we could barely beat Italy so it was no time to be giving an upcomer a run. No one else was ever going to get a run in the RC, the stakes were just too high especially after the drubbing in Sydney. The other issue is no one was really putting their hand up. Mason and Stewart are still a few years off and Lance and Cooper were never going to be picked over Foley in the RC. Absolute catch 22 situation.

When they get to Europe they should bring in Lilo.. His really our ready made back up.. Get him in the system and fit we be fine.. Unfortunately he got sick but he will be back next year and has all the talent and skill.

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