JAMES OCONNOR

[Biffo]

Mortlock, Ioane and Cameron Shepherd have been unavailable for quite a while. Do you have any other candidate basher backs who were available for Robbie D to have picked?

Tuqiri but we shifted him & he was rarely injured.

So to answer your quesion "no" we are a nation of lightweights no wonder we continue to get smashed.

What happened to the Nathan Greys, Matt Burkes, daniel Herberts, Tim Horans, Joe Roffs, and Ben Tunes of OZ rugby? The days of the big boppers.

According to your originating post on the subject, Robbie D and Phil Mooney banished them.

 

[Groucho]

Robbie had an amazing record with the Crusaders, and a fairly poor record with the ABs. For mine, he has read one too many management books and is not coaching this side very well.

And I'm allowed to disagree with his youth policy outright.

No one is questioning your right to disagree, Scarfman. This is a discussion forum after all, and there is no law about accepting what coaches say.

I guess I'm in the group that agrees with Deans. We need depth and we need it developed efficiently. Lacking a large pool of players, that depth can only come from our youngsters. There will be a period of pain but then there will be considerable benefits. By their early twenties, Portly and Britney for example will have a wealth of hard-earned experience.

 

[Biffo]

We need depth and we need it developed efficiently. Lacking a large pool of players, that depth can only come from our youngsters. There will be a period of pain but then there will be considerable benefits. By their early twenties, Portly and Britney for example will have a wealth of hard-earned experience.

Look at the top 40 players now and project two years ahead. We will have a very large, by previous standards, pool of players in the 22-30 age group who have played 20-30 tests and a hard core in the 26-32 range who have played 50 and + tests. Sure, there will be wastage from droputs, burnouts and real flameouts but we will have something to work with.

I have worried about the future of the Wallabies for the next week for seven long years and was very relieved at the end of last year to stop that worrying - relief was on the way. It is now very much closer.

 

[Scarfman]

No one is questioning your right to disagree, Scarfman. This is a discussion forum after all, and there is no law about accepting what coaches say.

I guess I'm in the group that agrees with Deans. We need depth and we need it developed efficiently. Lacking a large pool of players, that depth can only come from our youngsters. There will be a period of pain but then there will be considerable benefits. By their early twenties, Portly and Britney for example will have a wealth of hard-earned experience.

Yeah ... BUT ... sounds to me like you are saying that hard-earned experience is a good thing.

Can you see where I'm going with this?

 

[waratahjesus]

Robbie had an amazing record with the Crusaders, and a fairly poor record with the ABs. For mine, he has read one too many management books and is not coaching this side very well.

And I'm allowed to disagree with his youth policy outright.

No one is questioning your right to disagree, Scarfman. This is a discussion forum after all, and there is no law about accepting what coaches say.

I guess I'm in the group that agrees with Deans. We need depth and we need it developed efficiently. Lacking a large pool of players, that depth can only come from our youngsters. There will be a period of pain but then there will be considerable benefits. By their early twenties, Portly and Britney for example will have a wealth of hard-earned experience.

a talent pool is one thing, but the reality of the wallaby situation is, the more things change the more they stay the same, all we hear from the camp is crap about "self belief" or "winning culture", problem is the players out there seem to have a hard time having a dig.

gits has never worked at ten,. we havnt won the major games with him out there yet they persist with him, why?
if britney and co dont win for the next year, do they play in the world cup because they have been playing?
when is the cutoff point for "building depth"?
when does a team run out onto a field wearing gold that has a chance of returning with a trophy of value to australian rugby?

i just dont understand the point, basically 2 years to go to a world cup of building depth when our supposed first stringers cant finish off a game!

we drop phil waugh, we lose alot of games in the last ten minutes, seems to me having experience and leadership during this time would be a huge benifit, but i guess having young guys who dotn win at super level must be right cos deans coached canterbury when they had three quarters of the all blacks team in them and was succesful, cos you know, they were just a bunch of losers when he rode into town!

 

[Biffo]

Mortlock, Ioane and Cameron Shepherd have been unavailable for quite a while. Do you have any other candidate basher backs who were available for Robbie D to have picked?

Tuqiri but we shifted him & he was rarely injured.

So to answer your quesion "no" we are a nation of lightweights no wonder we continue to get smashed.

What happened to the Nathan Greys, Matt Burkes, daniel Herberts, Tim Horans, Joe Roffs, and Ben Tunes of OZ rugby? The days of the big boppers.

Might Chambers and Morahan be the first two on a list of candidates? I can't think of any at the Tahs, Brumbies and Force.

 

[Reddy!]

Robbie had an amazing record with the Crusaders, and a fairly poor record with the ABs. For mine, he has read one too many management books and is not coaching this side very well.

And I'm allowed to disagree with his youth policy outright.

No one is questioning your right to disagree, Scarfman. This is a discussion forum after all, and there is no law about accepting what coaches say.

I guess I'm in the group that agrees with Deans. We need depth and we need it developed efficiently. Lacking a large pool of players, that depth can only come from our youngsters. There will be a period of pain but then there will be considerable benefits. By their early twenties, Portly and Britney for example will have a wealth of hard-earned experience.

a talent pool is one thing, but the reality of the wallaby situation is, the more things change the more they stay the same, all we hear from the camp is crap about "self belief" or "winning culture", problem is the players out there seem to have a hard time having a dig.

gits has never worked at ten,. we havnt won the major games with him out there yet they persist with him, why?
if britney and co dont win for the next year, do they play in the world cup because they have been playing?
when is the cutoff point for "building depth"?
when does a team run out onto a field wearing gold that has a chance of returning with a trophy of value to australian rugby?

i just dont understand the point, basically 2 years to go to a world cup of building depth when our supposed first stringers cant finish off a game!

we drop phil waugh, we lose alot of games in the last ten minutes, seems to me having experience and leadership during this time would be a huge benifit, but i guess having young guys who dotn win at super level must be right cos deans coached canterbury when they had three quarters of the all blacks team in them and was succesful, cos you know, they were just a bunch of losers when he rode into town!

I agree with WJ. Building towards the 2011 world cup is a cop out. There is a high chance we won't win it as New Zealand is going to be just as good in 2 years time, so too South Africa. Nevertheless we are blooding youngsters for experience now in the hope that in 2 years time they will have the experience to lead us to a world cup. I think this is rather optimistic. As a result we are losing games because of lack of experience in crucial positions. The Wallabies need to be winning to ensure the rugby popularity in Australia (becoming even more important due to poor results from Aussie Super 14 teams).

I think the best possible team needs to be fielded consistently; inexperienced players can improve their game in club rugby or super 14 until there is an opportunity for them to take the step up.

And another criticism of how Robbie Deans operates: He picks players that apparently suit his "game plan". This means players like Gerrard, Phil Waugh, Staniforth, Hoiles, Mowen, Baxter etc aren't included in the Wallabies, despite perhaps being the best in the country in their prefered position during the Super14. In my mind, Australia does not have the depth to not include these players. This is shown, for example, by the absence of a specialised fullback in the Wallaby squad and also a lack of a tighthead back up.

 

[Scarfman]

Totally agree with you, Reddy.

 

[Ash]

And another criticism of how Robbie Deans operates: He picks players that apparently suit his "game plan". This means players like Gerrard, Phil Waugh, Staniforth, Hoiles, Mowen, Baxter etc aren't included in the Wallabies, despite perhaps being the best in the country in their prefered position during the Super14. In my mind, Australia does not have the depth to not include these players. This is shown, for example, by the absence of a specialised fullback in the Wallaby squad and also a lack of a tighthead back up.

You're kidding - such blinkers. Waugh was not better than Smith. Staniforth had an awful S14 this year. Hoiles was not the best 8, Brown was. Mowen the best 6? Hodgson probably was. The only ones you got right are Baxter and Gerrard, in my opinion.

Not that Gerrard had much competition - Shepherd had injury problems once again, Mitchell was hot and cold as always, SNK kicked averagely and ran poorly, and it was McLinden's first year. However, in saying that, I would've been happy seeing Gerrard at fullback ahead of J'OC every game this year.

Of course, not that Baxter had any competition, either.

Might Chambers and Morahan be the first two on a list of candidates? I can't think of any at the Tahs, Brumbies and Force.

Ratu at the Tahs. I liked the look of Carraro at 13/wing but he's off overseas now.

Fanifo has been getting bigger at the Brumbies. I think he will end up a decent size.

Both Haylett-Petty and Cummins at the Force are sizeable (approaching 100 kgs?).

Chambers, being seen as a key signing for the Reds, will definitely get a go.

But the young Morahan - I rate him very highly. I think he has the most potential of all mentioned. Nasty shoulder reconstruction for such a young kid though. Hopefully he'll see some time off the bench next year - but geez the Reds have a log jam of decent outside backs: Turinuri, Chambers, Ioane, Hynes, Morahan and now Sitauti(?) in their Academy. There's also McLinden, plus Connor, Davies and Toua but the latter three have yet to prove they are up to the S14 level. The Reds problem is not their outside backs...

 

[Groucho]

The process of blooding youth and building depth isn't RWC-centric. It is a permanent necessity which we have not properly addressed for a decade.

 

[Biffo]

The process of blooding youth and building depth isn't RWC-centric. It is a permanent necessity which we have not properly addressed for a decade.

Two simple sentences which should still some debate.

 

[Scarfman]

"Blooding of youth"?

What you are saying is pick the second-best player because he is younger? Sounds like a quota policy?

There is no reason at all to "blood" youth except to keep them out of the clutches of rugby league or Europe. In fact, let 'em go, we'll see you in 4 years.

Experience wins big games, and if we perpetually pick young sides then we'll never have it. By the time JOC (James O'Connor) reaches rugby maturity, we'll be calling for some young guns that's just torn up the U20s. Madness!

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Thank you - someone else has said it.

 

[Ash]

I like to think that J'OC is also there because we do not have much else. The only criticism I have is that Gerrard should've maybe been picked, but who else? Shepherd - injured. SNK - I know Scarfy loves him, but no - one of the more undeserving Wallabies in recent times. McLinden - first year, great runner but kicking game and tactical game lacking. Turner has failed so far in all his games at fullback and looks a much better wing. The only other viable fullback option is Mitchell, who Deans obviously also sees as a wing. Youth is playing a card in J'OC's favour, but really he's only even considered because we do not have 1 decent international class fullback left uninjured in the country. Not a single one.

If Latham was still around and Shepherd wasn't injured, then I think that J'OC would be a squad member, if that. Dirt tracker at best.

Gerrard, though, I think is a tragedy.

Pocock and Smith being rotated I think is good. Pocock played a "dead rubber" Bledisloe, and should the easier tour games - like Scotland. Unlike J'OC, Pocock has had 2 very good seasons of S14 under his belt.

 

[Geronimo]

[/quote]


But the young Morahan - I rate him very highly. I think he has the most potential of all mentioned. Nasty shoulder reconstruction for such a young kid though. Hopefully he'll see some time off the bench next year - but geez the Reds have a log jam of decent outside backs: Turinuri, Chambers, Ioane, Hynes, Morahan and now Sitauti(?) in their Academy. There's also McLinden, plus Connor, Davies and Toua but the latter three have yet to prove they are up to the S14 level. The Reds problem is not their outside backs...
[/quote]

...........and it is not their inside backs...............starch in the pack????

 

[Geronimo]

Thank you - someone else has said it.

This is our big problem (apart from the funds they use up) is that we appear desperate. Agree 100%, let the boys mature and develop

 

[Ash]

...........and it is not their inside backs...............starch in the pack????

Last mention of this topic - yeah. No forward depth, and weakness in some key forward positions (see Reds thread soon-ish).

 

[Moses]

I reckon if Shicofske had stuck around he'd be worth a punt..

 

[Scotty]

I reckon McLinden did better in his first year than Schif did in his first year, so by the end of next season he could be an option for the Wallabies.

 

[Biffo]

I reckon McLinden did better in his first year than Schif did in his first year, so by the end of next season he could be an option for the Wallabies.

I watched McLinden closely and thought that, after one month, he was where Schif was when he finished at the Reds. He continued to improve after that.