JAMES OCONNOR

[waratahjesus]

In my opinion, no one reflects the problem with the wallabies more right now than this young man.
his entire reputation is running into gaps off giteau. on the international stage he played well against italy and the barbarians who were both completely outclassed making them 'c' class sides to the wallabies 'b' class.

problem is, he is what 19-20 years old.
he hasnt done anythign more than show potential and he is going to be played half a million a season to continue doing so. if he continues to be outclassed on the international stage what then? do they drop him altogether, his pay packet doesnt go down.

pay packets like that should go to players who have already proved themselves, it should be a carrot and a reward, not something handed out to stop people leaving for europe or rugby league,

i prepose a new contract structure were anyone that plays 5, 10, 15 years for the wallabies gets a large bonus at the completion of each of those seasons and a superannuation payment of sorts. (maybe life time medical insurance for there service to australian rugby)

in a regular season players are on a maximum contract, which is divided by the number of tests and then again by winning/losing, meaning if they dont make the squad they dont get payed and if they lose they dont get payed as much as if they win.

as JOC (James O'Connor) sits around collecting his half a mill but refusing to put his shoulder in to any tackle he makes, just think, if you dicided not to do anything that you deemed hard at your work, would your boss still give you a raise?

 

[Scarfman]

Getting picked and getting paid are not JOC (James O'Connor)'s fault. What's he supposed to say? No thanks, if you could please bench me and pay me less?

But I totally agree that Deans / ARU has brought him on tap far to soon.

 

[Mojoman]

I'd say drop him.

(A) His form doesn't warrant his position. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) or Drew Mitchell are better options.
(B) Bench him and inject him in 20min stints and have him run @ tiring defences.

He's overrated @ this stage. But he has oodles of time to develop and obvious talent so he's worth the investment.

 

[waratahjesus]

im just using oconnor as an example of the problem, a player at 20 shouldnt be in the international squad at all, he has had a season and a half in super 14, he has been surrounded by gits and stanners and had alot of help, he isnt going to get the space and time in international rugby.

i dont understand the problem in making players like this work for there spots and money. a youth movement is one thing, but to do it to the detriment of rugby and the player himself is another, if he started in two years when he had filled out some and fouind a more physical pressence would it really cause that much of an issue, we have him covered, we dont need him. but instead, we have him and he gets 500,000 grand a year?

 

[Biffo]

In my opinion, no one reflects the problem with the wallabies more right now than this young man.
his entire reputation is running into gaps off giteau. on the international stage he played well against italy and the barbarians who were both completely outclassed making them 'c' class sides to the wallabies 'b' class.

problem is, he is what 19-20 years old.
he hasnt done anythign more than show potential and he is going to be played half a million a season to continue doing so. if he continues to be outclassed on the international stage what then? do they drop him altogether, his pay packet doesnt go down.

pay packets like that should go to players who have already proved themselves, it should be a carrot and a reward, not something handed out to stop people leaving for europe or rugby league,

i prepose a new contract structure were anyone that plays 5, 10, 15 years for the wallabies gets a large bonus at the completion of each of those seasons and a superannuation payment of sorts. (maybe life time medical insurance for there service to australian rugby)

in a regular season players are on a maximum contract, which is divided by the number of tests and then again by winning/losing, meaning if they dont make the squad they dont get payed and if they lose they dont get payed as much as if they win.

as JOC (James O'Connor) sits around collecting his half a mill but refusing to put his shoulder in to any tackle he makes, just think, if you dicided not to do anything that you deemed hard at your work, would your boss still give you a raise?

I don't share others' exalted opinions of this young man. I am with Lindommer.

However, in considering his pay packet, we must understand that the bulk of his money comes not from playing for the Wallabies but for the Force, through sponsorship.

 

[Mojoman]

Without sounding like I'm gloating..the AirNZCup/Currie Cup would be perfect for the JOC (James O'Connor)'s of OZ rugby. In the absence of one and using hindsight, it probably would've been more prudent to give JOC (James O'Connor) a couple of S14 seasons before elevating him to Test rugby.

 

[fatprop]

im just using oconnor as an example of the problem, a player at 20 shouldnt be in the international squad at all, he has had a season and a half in super 14, he has been surrounded by gits and stanners and had alot of help, he isnt going to get the space and time in international rugby.

i dont understand the problem in making players like this work for there spots and money. a youth movement is one thing, but to do it to the detriment of rugby and the player himself is another, if he started in two years when he had filled out some and fouind a more physical pressence would it really cause that much of an issue, we have him covered, we dont need him. but instead, we have him and he gets 500,000 grand a year?

We could give them time if we had the talent in front of them.

Look at Beale he was expected to run a S14 side before he was ready.

In NZ he would have had 2 years of NPC with a few runs off the bench in the S14 before even being considered for test rugby.

 

[Scarfman]

That doesn't make sense fp. Unless this generation is better than the last. Which it isn't.

 

[Geronimo]

I couldn't agree more with this line of thinking. Although it is not the players fault, Australian rugby seems overly desperate to find the next big thing. They do not learn from experience, paying way over the odds for young players who may develop. They Aust heirachy paid $900,000 a season for a guy they couldn't wait to get rid of, pay $600,000 a season for a guy that has played a few tests and the only one that was decent was against minnow Italy. As everyone is saying, why not let them develop? They are paying this sort of money when just last week I was asked to buy tickets to support the local lad going on the Schoolboys tour. I believe they have to raise about $2,000 each. This does not make sense!!

 

[Ash]

That doesn't make sense fp. Unless this generation is better than the last. Which it isn't.

I think it is (Cooper, Beale, J'OC, Horne, To'omua, Lealiifano all young with future potential) , but regardless - fp and MM are right that two or so seasons of NPC provides a good basis. As Lindommer? and/or RW? point out - compare the number 18/19 year olds starting/on the bench in NZ S14 sides to the number in Aus sides.

 

[Scarfman]

My point is - why would any of this make any difference? If you play in the best competition in the world or the worst, you should get promoted to the top grade at about the same age.

Know what I'm saying?

 

[naza]

I couldn't agree more with this line of thinking. Although it is not the players fault, Australian rugby seems overly desperate to find the next big thing. They do not learn from experience, paying way over the odds for young players who may develop. They Aust heirachy paid $900,000 a season for a guy they couldn't wait to get rid of, pay $600,000 a season for a guy that has played a few tests and the only one that was decent was against minnow Italy. As everyone is saying, why not let them develop? They are paying this sort of money when just last week I was asked to buy tickets to support the local lad going on the Schoolboys tour. I believe they have to raise about $2,000 each. This does not make sense!!

Where's the 'Why do people think John O'Neill is an idiot' thread ?

O'Connor makes $600 k/yr but makes no tackles. That's what we call the JON effect. If he wasn't poohing his nappies at the prospect of playing Sydney club rugby, O'Connor would struggle to crack Sydney Uni reserve grade.

But if you a useless pathetic back, and a wanker of human being, that qualifies you for a half mill per. If you are a quality forward, we'll let you go. Thanks JON !!!

 

[liquor box]

I dont think you can drop him due solely to his age, he should be dropped on performance. I am all for giving a young guy a shot at the big time, but be prepared for him to go back and learn if he is not an instant success in S14.

Australia's problem is we dont have the patience to wait for our talent to develop. If S14 experience will lead to great test players then in 5 years time we will have a Wallaby team full of 26-27 year olds with 70-100 games each!

JOC (James O'Connor) could end up with 170 S14/S15/S? games by the time he retires

 

[Lee Grant]

Without sounding like I'm gloating..the AirNZCup/Currie Cup would be perfect for the JOC (James O'Connor)'s of OZ rugby. In the absence of one and using hindsight, it probably would've been more prudent to give JOC (James O'Connor) a couple of S14 seasons before elevating him to Test rugby.

You're exactly right as I have said many a time on this and the other forum. JOC (James O'Connor) playing for the Force when he was 17, Beale having his first senior game of rugby a couple of months after leaving school - in the Super14 and on the veldt - and a few weeks after he turned 18 ... yarda, yarda.

We do these young fellows no favours at all starting them so high, so young. It wasn't hindsight that persuaded me that the Rabbit shouldn't have played for the Wallabies this year - it was foresight. Once he was picked to play against the Barbarians and the Italians I thought OK so long as he doesn't play there in 3N, as I was afraid of what might happen, and it did. Fortunately he was not injured.

As I have said before: he has thousands of mistakes to make in his career and he should be encouraged to back himself and try things to learn from those mistakes. He would get rid of things that don't work and learn the basics in the process - but that process should not involve a Bledisloe match for crying out loud.

I am critical of Oz youngsters being expected to learn their profession on the job and always have been. Sure, there have been some successful exceptions, but they are exceptions, and usually they are bruisers who do not play in a technical position. I put young Pocock in this category, but he has a hell of a lot to learn before you could say that he is a real footie player.

 

[disco]

Deans is making the same mistake Phil Mooney did by falling in love with undersize flashy youngsters who can do all the tricks but are completely lost in defence.

Example with Phil Mooney: Played Rod Davies & Blair Conner time & time again until it was obvious to a blind man that neither of these two blokes could read the game or make a good one on one tackle in defence.

Last game of the season drops both of them goes for solid clubman Ant Sauer (spellcheck that name) who is 27 & what do you know he actually understands where to be in defence & he also hits the line at pace in attack.

Sure he was never going to be a Wallaby but he did the basics well & if Mooney had picked older players like Sauer earlier in the season just maybe he'd still be in charge of the Reds today.

 

[Biffo]

Deans is making the same mistake Phil Mooney did by falling in love with undersize flashy youngsters who can do all the tricks but are completely lost in defence.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in Robbie D's history to suggest he "falls in love with undersize flashy youngsters ...".

Have a look at the Canterbury backs from Deans' era. Wouldn't you love to have some of those big bashers available to the Wallabies? I am thinking Scott Hamilton for one. Robbie D's backlines at Canterbury almost always consisted of 2-3 masterful playmakers who set 5-4 bashers running. Those bashers had some skills and pace, too.

The Australian rugby cattle pen is quite devoid of big, plain, older blokes who have no tricks but are masters in defence ....

... except Tom Carter.

 

[Cutter]

It is almost as though Tom Carter has some sort of vampire effect. First it was waratahjesus, then Bruce Ross and now Biffo. Who will be next?

 

[Biffo]

It is almost as though Tom Carter has some sort of vampire effect. First it was waratahjesus, then Bruce Ross and now Biffo. Who will be next?

anyone for irony?

 

[BillyWebb]

You can't generalize on this age issue.
Francois Steyn won a RWC medal a couple of months after his 20th birthday, having earned his first cap for the Boks at 19 only the year before. And his international debut came before he'd played any S14 rugby.

Some guys develop early on, and some take a bit of time.

I happen to think O'Connor has buckets of talent and giving him an extended run was a worthwhile investment.
My personal preference would still be to use him as a sub at this stage, but to be fair, injuries and retirements have probably forced the coach's hand a bit.

 

[Jethro Tah]

Re pay packets, it's all about demand and supply. Players will keep demanding higher pays until we get a greater supply of players from a rejuvenated ARC (or at least some Argies and more Pacific Islanders in an enlarged Super 14). JON if you are reading this: bring back the ARC and you will be able to cut ARU player salaries. If they are playing purely for money then they can bugger off over here to Europe.

On JOC (James O'Connor), he needs more games at club level and fewer on the international stage. I would hate to see him get smashed by a fat forward and sustain a career ending head blow before he hits his peak, ala Slats and Huxley. I say introduce a rule that requires a player do a minimum of 2 years at club level before playing at Super 14 level.