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James Horwill cited for stamping

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smartcooky

Bob McCowan (2)
Was Horwill charged with 'stamping' or 'stomping'?
Meanwhile, here's a shot of Greg Martin 'stamping


From the Horwill Decision document

"1.1 As a result of an incident in the 3rd minute of this Test Match, the Player was cited by the Citing Commissioner for an offence of foul play, being an alleged offence against Law 10.4(b) in these terms: “Stamping or trampling. A player must not stamp or trample on an opponent”, such words reflecting, exactly, the wording of Law 10.4(b)."
 

vidiot

John Solomon (38)
I suspect (predict even) that when Graeme Mew QC (Quade Cooper)'s decision comes out, it will say much the same, and show that the iRB were entirely misguided in their appeal.

Many are aggrieved that the IRB launched the appeal against James Horwill's acquittal of stomping....

Nice summaries, much appreciated.

I first read 'appeal' and review and jumped to the erroneous conclusion that the second hearing was effectively a retrial.

Whereas the hearing came down to an an argument from the Appellant - in the form of IRB Disciplinary Officer Susan Ahern (about the thought process of the original judicial officer re the 'rucking' regulation and balance of probabilities) rebutted by the the argument from Horwill's team (which seemed like it was cogent and crystal clear).

The question for the IRB - or maybe their legal team - was - was the appeal ever going to succeed? What a waste of time, money and a punitive distraction for Horwill.
 

ACT Crusader

Jim Lenehan (48)
Full written decision for the IRB's appeal of the James Horwill decision available at irb.com
http://www.irb.com/mm/document/tournament/home/02/06/84/12/jameshorwill-decisiononappeal.pdf

Thanks for posting. Interesting read. What it shows is that if a player doesn't "lawyer up" they could be vulnerable.

Found the below interesting and suggests the degree of responsibility and duty of care players have when a player is on the deck.

"58. That said, it is axiomatic that if a player is on the ground in a vulnerable position, an opponent must be vigilant to avoid contact occurring that could result in injury."
 

smartcooky

Bob McCowan (2)
The IRB's statement on the failed appeal.

http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2068413.html#irb statement horwill appeal decision

So they waste everyone's time, money and energy, with an ultimately futile appeal, and in so doing, put the Wallaby captain through a torrid time, and seriously disrupt his team's preparations for the third and deciding test, and now this; a piece of spin-doctoring bollocks worthy of the most two-faced politician. Who did they hire to write this claptrap, Alistair Campbell?

This whole process smacks of the antics of an amateur organisation trying to run a professional sport, and failing dismally. There are many much better ways this could have been handled. The same result could have been achieved simply by sending out a public memorandum to all JO's that while the iRB will abide by the decision (the original one) it does not agree with the conclusion or they way in which it was reached, and that JO's must not use these as precedents in future hearings. That way, the iRB could have saved all the wasted time and expense, and not come out the other end looking like a bunch of jackasses.
 

Sidbarret

Fred Wood (13)
(Disclaimer- I look at this from a different angle as South Africa uses Roman-Dutch law, which differ slightly from the common law which are applied in these cases)

I found the reasoned decision quite interesting, but would have handled the appeal differently if it was my case.

The appeal only dealt with the first ruling and no new evidence was presented. The IRB argued -

1 That the JO confused the charge by referring to the law related to legitimate rucking.

2 The JO applied the wrong test in terms of burden of proof, beyond a reasonable doubt instead of on the balance of probabilities.

3 The JO made a manifest error in his factual findings.

Point three was a hail Mary call and doesn't warrant discussion and was rightly ignored by all the parties.

If I argued the appeal on behalf of the IRB, point number 2 would have been my main focus. The JO used words to the effect that Horwill's version was "not impossible or even highly improbable". These words are what you expect to find in cases requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The correct question that needed to be answered, which wasn't, is whether Horwill's version was in fact the most probable (or at least as probable) version based on the evidence as there were only two possible versions presented at the hearing*, +.

Mew did some interesting mental gymnastics to argue that the Hampton did in fact apply the correct test, but does not really give any solid reasons to negative the IRB's argument.


The first argument is also an interesting one. Hampton referred to a 2005 clarification to point out that, in the context of rucking, contact with the head will not automatically lead to finding of guilty unless intent or recklessness can be proven. It is pretty clear why Hampton included this in his finding. The point has been raised in this very thread already with posters arguing that all contact with the head should result in some sanction being imposed. The point Hampton was making was that, in terms of the laws of the game, boots and heads will sometimes come into contact with each other without a player being guilty of an offence.

The point the IRB argued (which Horwill conceded and Hampton accepted) was that this case did not deal with rucking for the ball. The point that Hampton failed to deal with, which goes to the heart of the matter for those that believe Horwill is guilty, was that the ruling on rucking is manifestly different to the current case. Where a player is rucking for the ball, there is a legitimate (legal) reason for his movements. For those that believe Horwill was guilty of stamping, there was no legitimate reason for him putting his foot down where he did. More to the point, his actions seem so unnatural that one has to come to the conclusion that he intended to stamp on Alun Wyn Jones.

Mew correctly found that Hampton made his comment in a specific context and Hampton's failure to deal with the other issues raised does not mean that misunderstood the charge against Horwill.


It might be different in common law jurisdictions, but here one often look at the cost order to see who in fact won a case as the "winner" usually receiving cost order in his favour. In this case each party was ordered to pay their own costs. Mew is at pains to point out that, though unsuccessful, the appeal did have merit and that the IRB were right to appeal the original decision.



* It would have been interesting had Mew found for the IRB on this point. I wonder whether the case would have been retried or whether the case would have been referred back to Hampton to rule on the facts, applying a different (the correct) test.

+Based on the video we have all seen I am of the opinion that Horwill's version is not the version best which correlates with the available evidence.
 

Dai bando

Charlie Fox (21)
I'm glad he played, I haven't much doubt that Horwill deliberately stomped on AWJ, But to have beaten Australia without him would have been an injustice in its self, now there can be no bleating, we beat you unfairly and the NH brought their weight to bear on the result.
 
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Dai bando

Charlie Fox (21)
Cyclopath, My thinking on Horwill has been greatly enhanced did a very good after match speech, must have been gutted but held it together and praised the lions supporters and his fellow players, the aussie support has e been fantastic, from zero to hero me thinks.
 

Athilnaur

Arch Winning (36)
In lay terms Horwill needed to have been reckless or negligent in his stamping. By asserting he was just trying to find his feet and did not know AWJ was there he is claiming he had no knowledge AWJ was at risk of being hurt, it was a simple and unforseeable accident.

The video we see publicly shows Horwill sending his leg inwards for no apparent reason, leaving us to conclude it was not merely reckless but intentional.

Presumably the other videos show Horwill was being pushed off balance as he claims and support, or at least do not counter, Horwill's claim that AWJ was unsighted by him.

If the IRB were to make the test more strict, by necessity it would be that all acts of stamping upon a players head are citeable; that such stamping being accidental is no excuse.

I suggest that one thing none of us want in a contact sport is for the ruling body to start making any accidental contact that has the potential for injury citeable.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Gracious winners aren't prominent on Gwlad.

First time the Welsh have beaten Oz in a while. Let them sing. I was up in the rafters when Bread of Heaven broke out during the game and it was pretty awesome.

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I hate autocorrect ...
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
First time the Welsh have beaten Oz in a while. Let them sing. I was up in the rafters when Bread of Heaven broke out during the game and it was pretty awesome.

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I hate autocorrect .
first time I've heard orcs singing it! come to think of it, first time I've sung Swing low outside of a rugby club! Couple of Scots started flower of scotland, and gray wasn't even on the field. the whole thing was great fun.
 

boyo

Mark Ella (57)
Don't get me wrong, I've a bit of affinity for Wales (as no doubt you can tell by my username), but I thought that some of the reaction on Gwlad is OTT.
 

Dai bando

Charlie Fox (21)
its the welsh way buttie no offence meant by most of them, I don't visit gwlad too often, as the vitriol can as you say be a tad over the top
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Cyclopath, My thinking on Horwill has been greatly enhanced did a very good after match speech, must have been gutted but held it together and praised the lions supporters and his fellow players, the aussie support has e been fantastic, from zero to hero me thinks.



It's been a great occasion and good fun all round. Both captains are fine men who do their respective countries credit IMHO.
 
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