ISA Rugby 2013

[RugbyTears]

I don't think that's it HJ. I don't now how or why Hooper went to Pius, ......I'm just confused as to why they are consistently so weak, given good facilities and a location at Chatswood which is at the heart of one of the strongest rugby areas in Australia. Maybe they just don't have a particular focus on rugby, it's just another part of life at the school. I think we may need an old boy to fill us in. If Hooper is any indication, they have no problem turning out fine, well-adjusted young men.

Hi Q-H, I don't think facilities, rugby heritage, location of the school or even how much focus the school puts on rugby is the issue. Only last year Pius had the Wallabies coach down at Oxford Falls mingling with the their rugby community so 'focus' is not the issue. My theory is, we are dealing with schoolboys here so winning has a lot to do with it. Pius is more than competitive in other ISA sports. They have so many soccer players because they win soccer matches most the time. So kids wants to play soccer instead. By winning I don't mean the 1st XV - its right across the board down to the 13Cs. Reason why Auggies & Oakhill always have thier most athletic kids playing rugby is because they win in the lower grades. And the trick here is the depth of their coaching -- have a look at how their 14Bs play. Even down to that level, they are well coached (not just some dad who reluctantly got dragged to do the job !) hence they win more often. So they get more kids wanting to play rugby while Pius loses and less kids want to play there. (What I have said here can easily be applied to schools like Grammar or Cranbrook or Aloys.) I suspect there is a lot of planning, organisation and effort put into their entire coaching staff at Oakhill & Auggies that we don't see. And that I suspect that is why they have endless production lines of quality players. Anyhow, just my observation & theory.

 

[Quick Hands]

Hi Q-H, I don't think facilities, rugby heritage, location of the school or even how much focus the school puts on rugby is the issue. Only last year Pius had the Wallabies coach down at Oxford Falls mingling with the their rugby community so 'focus' is not the issue. My theory is, we are dealing with schoolboys here so winning has a lot to do with it. Pius is more than competitive in other ISA sports. They have so many soccer players because they win soccer matches most the time. So kids wants to play soccer instead. By winning I don't mean the 1st XV - its right across the board down to the 13Cs. Reason why Auggies & Oakhill always have thier most athletic kids playing rugby is because they win in the lower grades. And the trick here is the depth of their coaching -- have a look at how their 14Bs play. Even down to that level, they are well coached (not just some dad who reluctantly got dragged to do the job !) hence they win more often. So they get more kids wanting to play rugby while Pius loses and less kids want to play there. (What I have said here can easily be applied to schools like Grammar or Cranbrook or Aloys.) I suspect there is a lot of planning, organisation and effort put into their entire coaching staff at Oakhill & Auggies that we don't see. And that I suspect that is why they have endless production lines of quality players. Anyhow, just my observation & theory.

Sounds logical.

I wasn't by any means bagging the school, they seem to be doing a good job turning out good young men.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I think RugbyTears is onto something. Success breeds success. Winners attract winners.

As well as the scholarships/bursaries/fee relief issues that some schools may or may not use to attract talented athletes to their school, many parents "self scholarship" by sending their kids to schools that they perceive will benefit their kids from their "better" programs in whatever discipline they think Oliver, Henry, or Lawrence is good at.

Parents will typically try to send good ice skaters to schools that have a reputation for their ice skating program. Good actors seek out Performing arts school in preference to GPS schools.

In the end the "decline" of Pius relative to Augies becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. The greater success that Augies has across the board, the more attractive that they become to talented rugby athletes.
The more talented athletes enrolled In a particular school, the more inclined the school is to spend resources on the athletics programme.

The rich get richer and the poor poorer. It is difficult to break out of that cycle.

 

[RugbyTears]

Sounds logical.

I wasn't by any means bagging the school, they seem to be doing a good job turning out good young men.

Q-Hands, I don't think anyone reckons you are bagging out Pius at all. You raised a very good question.

 

[Quick Hands]

All that is needed now is for either the ARU or NSWRU to get a regular schools competition in the area (trust me, it would thrive in the Macarthur region) to act as a feeder system for them.

Supporting village clubs and a club competition would work even better! But, yes NSWRU and ARU need to be pro-active in the region.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Nothing stopping "the powers that be" running a combined school and village Club team competition. The ACT do this.

 

[Quick Hands]

Nothing stopping "the powers that be" running a combined school and village Club team competition. The ACT do this.

As long as it works.

The model that seems to work in the 'traditional' rugby areas on the north shore, northern beaches and eastern suburbs is a village club system starting from 6s which runs parallel to the schools in 13s - opens. Many boys double up and play school on Saturday and club on Sunday.

I think that high school is too late to start, it needs to be 6s.

 

[RugbyTears]

Supporting village clubs and a club competition would work even better! But, yes NSWRU and ARU need to be pro-active in the region.

In NZ club & school rugby co-exist. Even in other sports many ISA schools field teams in local comps in soccer, basketball, netball etc. But the big difference compared to rugby in the Campbelltown area is, junior club rugby does not exist there. I hope anyone doing anything about advancing rugby at St Greg's seperate that agenda from developing junior rugby in Campbelltown. Creating new clubs from scratch is very difficult. After seeing what happened at Penrith all those years ago, I believe in 'walk before you run'. St Greg's is a unique opportunity that benefits the school & the rest of ISA. How many fields they already have with the right shape goal posts ? How many students they have ? How many PE teachers they have ? How many teams each opposition school can offer them matches every week in their comp ? The support from the school for the sport ? Even down to how many tacklebags they alreay have ? Its all there ! You compare St gregs with say St Paul's at Penrith. There is only so much you can do at Pauls no matter how much you want to grow rugby there.

 

[Quick Hands]

In NZ club & school rugby co-exist. Even in other sports many ISA schools field teams in local comps in soccer, basketball, netball etc. But the big difference compared to rugby in the Campbelltown area is, junior club rugby does not exist there. I hope anyone doing anything about advancing rugby at St Greg's seperate that agenda from developing junior rugby in Campbelltown. Creating new clubs from scratch is very difficult. After seeing what happened at Penrith all those years ago, I believe in 'walk before you run'. St Greg's is a unique opportunity that benefits the school & the rest of ISA. How many fields they already have with the right shape goal posts ? How many students they have ? How many PE teachers they have ? How many teams each opposition school can offer them matches every week in their comp ? The support from the school for the sport ? Even down to how many tacklebags they alreay have ? Its all there ! You compare St gregs with say St Paul's at Penrith. There is only so much you can do at Pauls no matter how much you want to grow rugby there.

You're absolutely right. Supporting Gregs and developing junior club rugby in the Cambelltown region need to be kept separate.

The only point that I was making is that Gregs would find it easier if a percentage of their students had been playing junior club rugby from 6s-12s before arriving at Gregs in 13s.

It's no coincidence that many Augustines and Oakhill boys have played junior club rugby in Manly, Warringah, Eastwood or Parramatta districts between 6s and 12s. It means they start 13s with a flying start rather than having to teach the boys the game.

Starting junior clubs is a long-term project.

 

[Quick Hands]

It would. However at present there are only Campbelltown and Camden to speak of in the area. They need support and efforts to get more clubs developed in the area. I like the idea of school based clubs as an option.

Whatever works getting more kids playing rugby in the area.

I'm lucky enough to come from an area where there are strong junior clubs. It makes a huge difference for a school like St Augustines to have most of their players playing for clubs before they go to the school. If NSWRU/ARU could get 2 or 3 more clubs going in the area, even if they didn't go beyond 12s, it would make a huge difference to Greg's. Just think if most of their players had played some rugby before they arrived in Year 7. It requires heavy lifting by NSWRU/ARU, you'd hope they could see the advantages in it. If I was running the show, I'd be pumping every spare dollar into places like Camden and Cambelltown.

You'll find, if the school asks for help, NSWRU/ARU will give it because they know it means that the school is doing their work for them.

 

[Quick Hands]

Well, the way I look at it is, if the NSWRU can setup up school-based clubs in the area offering the opportunity for many to access the game easily they could very well get at least half a dozen more clubs in the junior ranks. Easily. There is a large PI and PI population out this way alongside others you'd pick up. That would strengthen Greg's to no end. Parents in the area would through themselves at the opportunity for their kids to go there, and they do. Already this year they have had over 3500 application for next year's intake of Year 7 for a total of 130 places.

Basing clubs around feeder primary schools is a model that works. Remember that 6s, 7s & 8s only play 7 a side, so you only need 10 boys and you have a team. What seems to happen in this area is at that level, most clubs have 3 or 4 teams and as on field numbers increase, some end up with 1 or 2 teams by the time they reach 15 a side at 11s. If you get the right parents on board (who are willing to help) it's a great way to get kids into rugby.

I know it's not easy, but if NSWRU/ARU worked with Greg's and identify primary schools which are feeder schools to Greg's, things would start moving.

The presence of Greg's really gives rugby a much better foothold in Cambelltown that we have in Penrith.

 

[RugbyTears]

Enough of St Greg's & C'town Preseason for the 1stXV have started already - so what are the experts thinking ? Judging by Ando's survey and allowing for some people voting for more than one school, looks like everyone else is playing for second spot behind Auggies. Have to agree based on Auggies 16As from last year and how many returning in 1st & 2nds. Anyone out there disagrees ?

 

[Quick Hands]

Augustine's will be hard to beat, especially as this is the season when they have all the "big games" at home - Oakhill, Pats & Stannies. Oakhill will always be very tough as well. Wild card could be Kinross, who beat Augustines in the 16As last year (at Narrabeen) to win that grade. Next year might be the big year for those boys though.

Augustines are always well-coached and play an entertaining and fast brand of rugby. Their 16As were very strong 2 years ago and those boys are now in the 1sts.

 

[RugbyTears]

Augustine's will be hard to beat, especially as this is the season when they have all the "big games" at home - Oakhill, Pats & Stannies. Oakhill will always be very tough as well. Wild card could be Kinross, who beat Augustines in the 16As last year (at Narrabeen) to win that grade. Next year might be the big year for those boys though.

Augustines are always well-coached and play an entertaining and fast brand of rugby. Their 16As were very strong 2 years ago and those boys are now in the 1sts.

Q-H , agree Kinross 16As looked pretty good last year. Likewise Auggies 16s last year. I don't know exactly how many Auggies 1st & 2nds are returning but I suspect there is a significant number. You probably know better.

 

[Quick Hands]

Q-H , agree Kinross 16As looked pretty good last year. Likewise Auggies 16s last year. I don't know exactly how many Auggies 1st & 2nds are returning but I suspect there is a significant number. You probably know better.

From what I hear, about half of last year's 1sts and 2nds are back, plus some rep players from their 16As last year. They never seem to lose a whole side, which is a reflection of their strength throughout the age groups.

 

[Tom Ando]

If anyone didn't know the new ISA structure for this year, Div 1 comprises of Oakhill, Auggies, St Pat's, Stannies, Kinross, St Pius and St Greg's. For Div 2, St Andrew's have dropped down to join Redfield, All Saints, Chev, Redlands and Central Coast on a Home and Away basis. The newly formed Div 3 includes Scots, Blue Mountains, Oxley who have all just recently dropped from Div 2, who are to play the C Grade teams from Div 1 as I understand. As for trials this year, who knows who is playing who (for all three divisions) ?

 

[Quick Hands]

If anyone didn't know the new ISA structure for this year, Div 1 comprises of Oakhill, Auggies, St Pat's, Stannies, Kinross, St Pius and St Greg's. For Div 2, St Andrew's have dropped down to join Redfield, All Saints, Chev, Redlands and Central Coast on a Home and Away basis. The newly formed Div 3 includes Scots, Blue Mountains, Oxley who have all just recently dropped from Div 2, who are to play the C Grade teams from Div 1 as I understand. As for trials this year, who knows who is playing who (for all three divisions) ?

Thanks for that info TA, I'd heard that they were talking about something like that, but didn't know it had been implemented. When it was first mentioned, when the larger Sydney schools played Kinross for example, their Cs would play Scots Bathurst or one of the schools up that way. I'm not sure if that is still the case or which schools if any were matched up.

 

[Tom Ando]

Thanks for that info TA, I'd heard that they were talking about something like that, but didn't know it had been implemented. When it was first mentioned, when the larger Sydney schools played Kinross for example, their Cs would play Scots Bathurst or one of the schools up that way. I'm not sure if that is still the case or which schools if any were matched up.​

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Yeah no worries thats all I have heard so far so i will keep you all updated as I hear stuff Do you know about trials?​

 

[Quick Hands]

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Yeah no worries thats all I have heard so far so i will keep you all updated as I hear stuff Do you know about trials?​

I hear Augustines have trials against Eddies, Waverley & Riverview.

 

[I like to watch]

No more Scots?
Is that as a result of the 50 point drubbing last year,or due to tensions about Scots poaching Aug's talented athletes?
I hear that the Scot's Northern Beaches bus is pretty full of freebies these days.