ISA Rugby 2012

[Hugh Jarse]

I understand that mungo clubs like to use St Gregs as their preferred school for some of their "scholarship" boys at under 16-18 level.

It would be a fairly major turnaround if St Gregs were to do what St Pats Strathfield did in about 1965 IIRC when as a school they committed to a rugby programme.

The big question would be can St Gregs commit to both mungo and rugby simultaneously? The cattle seem to be there.

After all the mungo rep stuff and interschooll competitions are over, and they have full access to all their students, their rugby results do seem to be different from those early in the ISA season.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I understand that mungo clubs like to use St Gregs as their preferred school for some of their "scholarship" boys at under 16-18 level.

It would be a fairly major turnaround if St Gregs were to do what St Pats Strathfield did in about 1965 IIRC when as a school they committed to a rugby programme.

The big question would be can St Gregs commit to both mungo and rugby simultaneously? The cattle seem to be there.

After all the mungo rep stuff and interschooll competitions are over, and they have full access to all their students, their rugby results do seem to be different from those early in the ISA season.

On the first point, it's one of them. It provides their player's with the ability to train as near professionals at the school with coaches who are NRL certified (there all teachers at the school as well) at a fair price of tuition (it's something like $6,600 per year for the day school) for what is a quality education appeasing the parents of those sent.

Greg's most certainly could sustain both. The Headmaster there has a very specific direction is which he wants to steer the school in and that could lead to Rugby gaining an equal footing with League. For where he wants it to led having a strong Rugby program is actually a drawcard. It's a school that likes winning and getting a 2nd or 3rd this season could give those pushing the game at the school the impetus to develop the into a serious sporting endeavour. This would mean access to everyone including League player's who are usually cottonwoolled by the 1st XIII coaches even though they play on Thursday as part of the MCS.

 

[Wood Rat]

On the first point, it's one of them. It provides their player's with the ability to train as near professionals at the school with coaches who are NRL certified (there all teachers at the school as well) at a fair price of tuition (it's something like $6,600 per year for the day school) for what is a quality education appeasing the parents of those sent.

Greg's most certainly could sustain both. The Headmaster there has a very specific direction is which he wants to steer the school in and that could lead to Rugby gaining an equal footing with League. For where he wants it to led having a strong Rugby program is actually a drawcard. It's a school that likes winning and getting a 2nd or 3rd this season could give those pushing the game at the school the impetus to develop the into a serious sporting endeavour. This would mean access to everyone including League player's who are usually cottonwoolled by the 1st XIII coaches even though they play on Thursday as part of the MCS.

Anyone for dominos?

 

[RugbyTears]

On the first point, .........Greg's most certainly could sustain both. The Headmaster there has a very specific direction is which he wants to steer the school in and that could lead to Rugby gaining an equal footing with League. ......

W-C Rugger, I have relatives who were at St Greg’s and talking to them I appreciate it is naïve of outsider to simply say ‘go to rugby’. Their League heritage and legacy has to be respected. It would like asking Oakhill to suddenly field 5 Opens soccer team in a space of two years. But a combination of both league & union? A powerhouse in both ? No school in Australia can claim they achieved that but if there is one school that is capable, that would be St Gregs. Consider the size of the school in enrolment, the number of fields for training, number of boarders, commitment of the school culture to excel in sports – you have it all to sustain both codes and can be bloody good at both. Only issue is coaches & refs. You don’t have the same resources to draw from in the ex student and parents community like Stannies, Oakhill or Augguies. But it is not an unsurmountable problem especially if you already have a committed headmaster. Then again, the Aust & NSW Unions can be helping with such a rich opportunity. There is a school smack bang in the middle of Campbelltown with potential to field 16 rugby teams aged from 13 to 18. They can’t ignore this opportunity or can they? I don't want to sound over dramatic here, but the future of Div 1 ISA rugby may well depend on the wellbeing of rugby at St Gregs . Just look at our 2nds and A's age group comp -- how many comp games do we have now? We have to look at reducing the size of Div 1 and go to the two round format like CAS. If that is where we go, then St Gregs becomes such a crucial piece of the jigsaw.

 

[RugbyTears]

Tears, assuming Kinross beat Pius with a bonus point victory, then I think Greg's and Kinross would be equal 2nd on 22 points with Augies a point behind on 21. So, looks like the victor of the Augustine's v Kinross deferred game will take 2nd place. .

Thanks Crofty, I thought Greg's had to be up there but not sure about bonus points.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

W-C Rugger, I have relatives who were at St Greg’s and talking to them I appreciate it is naïve of outsider to simply say ‘go to rugby’. Their League heritage and legacy has to be respected. It would like asking Oakhill to suddenly field 5 Opens soccer team in a space of two years. But a combination of both league & union? A powerhouse in both ? No school inAustralia can claim they achieved that but if there is one school that is capable, that would be St Gregs. Consider the size of the school in enrolment, the number of fields for training, number of boarders, commitment of the school culture to excel in sports – you have it all to sustain both codes and can be bloody good at both. Only issue is coaches & refs. You don’t have the same resources to draw from in the ex student and parents community like Stannies, Oakhill or Augguies. But it is not an unsurmountable problem especially if you already have a committed headmaster. Then again, the Aust & NSW Unions can be helping with such a rich opportunity. There is a school smack bang in the middle of Campbelltown with potential to field 16 rugby teams aged from 13 to 18. They can’t ignore this opportunity or can they? I don't want to sound over dramatic here, but the future of Div 1 ISA rugby may well depend on the wellbeing of rugby at St Gregs . Just look at our 2nds and A's age group comp -- how many comp games do we have now? We have to look at reducing the size of Div 1 and go to the two round format like CAS. If that is where we go, then St Gregs becomes such a crucial piece of the jigsaw.

I'm a Greg's old boy and am more than aware of the history of League at the school but Rugby has been slowly building for some time now. The issue will be as you allude to coaches and refs but it's something that if the school decides to chase the sport will rectify quickly. It's becoming an attitude of providing their talented sportsmen more opportunities to excel in both codes these days instead of just one and you'd be surprised how many day boys are currently playing for the school. I would really like to see the school go down that path as they have the potential to provide a program of some excellence in a relatively short period of time in what is arguably the premier school in one of it not the major growth region of Sydney in the next 20 years.

As for the ISA 1st Div. Cutting it to 6 teams may be an option, however, my question is what is the quality of the 2nd Division like and would there be any schools in that division be capable of making the step up if they chose to expand the top division?

 

[Rugby Reality]

Alvardo

St Andrews defeated St Pats in a thriller 17-15 with a try then a conversion from the sideline which hit the crossbar and went over after the siren. Better Players for Pats where no.7 Taweel and no.8 Van Diggelen for Andrews Talanoa who was playing 8 I think? and no.10 Alvarado. Great game of rugby

 

[Rugby Reality]

St Andrews defeated St Pats in a thriller 17-15 with a try then a conversion from the sideline which hit the crossbar and went over after the siren. Better Players for Pats where no.7 Taweel and no.8 Van Diggelen for Andrews Talanoa who was playing 8 I think? and no.10 Alvarado. Great game of rugby

I enjoyed watching the game very much. SACs no 10 did score a very good try and outplayed his opposition all day. What happened to the good no 10 and 9 Pats had when SACs played them in trials? At the end of the day Pats lost the game through poor discipline.

 

[RugbyTears]

St Augustines & Oakhill won their respective Waratah Shield semi finals fairly convincingly this afternoon.

 

[coachthinks]

If oakhill win the waratah shield they just might be the best school team in the country. They have had an unbelievable year.

 

[exISA]

if Kinross beat Auggies with a bonus point this weekend - does that mean that Auggies go to 4th on the log?

 

[RugbyTears]

I'm a Greg's old boy ......As for the ISA 1st Div. Cutting it to 6 teams may be an option, however, my question is what is the quality of the 2nd Division like and would there be any schools in that division be capable of making the step up if they chose to expand the top division?

W-C Rugger, I think the number one criteria for any Div 2 school joining Div 1 will have to be the number of teams it can consistently field. At the minimum it must be able to field 3 teams per age group with the Opens stretching to 4 or 5 teams. It is not just a matter of the 1st XV being able to compete in Div 1 but also all the way down to the 13Cs. Reason I say this is not just because it is easier to schedule games, but unless the school can draw from a pool of over 35 players in the Opens, it will never be able to compete. And to be able to do this, you have to start all the way down at the 13Cs level. (Don’t get me wrong, I think there are some very talented rugby players running around Div2 – check out the Div 2 semis at Oakhill this weekend! ) So it is a big demand to field that many teams in terms of coaches, refs, fields, equipment etc etc. Coming back to reducing Div1 and making it double round --- imagine this. Auggies get to play Oakhill again at Rat Park, Kinross gets another crack at Stannies, Gregs having the chance to keep on barnstorming!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Rugby Tears Div 1 Criteria: Opens (4 teams), 16 (3 teams), 15 (3 teams), 14 (3 teams), 13 (3 teams).

Using data from the ISA Website and the Rugby Winter 2012 competition tables, a summary reveals the following:
St Augustine’s Opens (3), 16 (3), 15 (3), 14 (3), 13 (4) - Meets RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria
St Stanislaus, Opens (5), 16 (2), 15 (4), 14 (4), 13 (4) – Conceded pass for RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria - work on U16’s.
Kinross, Opens (4), 16 (2), 15 (2), 14 (2), 13 (2) - relegate to ISA Div 2
Oakhill, Opens (5), 16 (3), 15 (4), 14 (5), 13 (4) - Meets RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria
St Patrick’s, Opens (5), 16 (3), 15 (3), 14 (5), 13 (4) - Meets RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria
St Pius, Opens (3), 16 (2), 15 (3), 14 (2), 13 (4) – Conceded pass for RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria - work on U16’s, U14’s.
St Andrew’s, Opens (2), 16 (1), 15 (2), 14 (1), 13 (1) - relegate to ISA Div 2
St Gregory’s, Opens (3), 16 (1), 15 (1), 14 (2), 13 (2) - relegate to ISA Div 2

I also have a feeling that some schools like St Pats have extra teams in some of the age grades that must play in some non-ISA type competition.

Rugby Tears ISA Div 1 will now be:
St Augustine’s
Oakhill
St Patrick’s
St Pius (Warning to lift game)
St Stanislaus (Warning to lift game)

Relegate to Div 2
St Andrew’s
St Gregory’s
Kinross

A five team ISA Div 1 competition would be a more incestuous competition than the CAS closed shop. Perhaps a time to merge the 5 ISA big schools with CAS?

Based on performances this year, Oakhill and St Augies have shown that they would probably be 1 and 2 in a joint ISA/CAS 1st XV competition.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Rugby Tears Div 1 Criteria: Opens (4 teams), 16 (3 teams), 15 (3 teams), 14 (3 teams), 13 (3 teams).

Using data from the ISA Website and the Rugby Winter 2012 competition tables, a summary reveals the following:
St Augustine’s Opens (3), 16 (3), 15 (3), 14 (3), 13 (4) - Meets RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria
St Stanislaus, Opens (5), 16 (2), 15 (4), 14 (4), 13 (4) – Conceded pass for RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria - work on U16’s.
Kinross, Opens (4), 16 (2), 15 (2), 14 (2), 13 (2) - relegate to ISA Div 2
Oakhill, Opens (5), 16 (3), 15 (4), 14 (5), 13 (4) - Meets RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria
St Patrick’s, Opens (5), 16 (3), 15 (3), 14 (5), 13 (4) - Meets RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria
St Pius, Opens (3), 16 (2), 15 (3), 14 (2), 13 (4) – Conceded pass for RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria - work on U16’s, U14’s.
St Andrew’s, Opens (2), 16 (1), 15 (2), 14 (1), 13 (1) - relegate to ISA Div 2
St Gregory’s, Opens (3), 16 (1), 15 (1), 14 (2), 13 (2) - relegate to ISA Div 2

I also have a feeling that some schools like St Pats have extra teams in some of the age grades that must play in some non-ISA type competition.

Rugby Tears ISA Div 1 will now be:
St Augustine’s
Oakhill
St Patrick’s
St Pius (Warning to lift game)
St Stanislaus (Warning to lift game)

Relegate to Div 2
St Andrew’s
St Gregory’s
Kinross

A five team ISA Div 1 competition would be a more incestuous competition than the CAS closed shop. Perhaps a time to merge the 5 ISA big schools with CAS?

Based on performances this year, Oakhill and St Augies have shown that they would probably be 1 and 2 in a joint ISA/CAS 1st XV competition.

Point well taken. I'd think by relegating some teams you would provide a blow to the overall competitiveness of the competition. I think what needs to occur in the short term is maintain the current 8 and either look to expand the season to either roughly 1 and a half rounds (say 10 games) or to two complete rounds (14) with a first past the post championship. I would also suggest moving the season back as not to conflict with some schools other sporting commitments. But, that's a very subjective point of view as it would ensure my old school would be far more competitive for a longer time period. If they think they have a chance at the Championship from early in the season watch the game really begin to come on at Greg's.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I mostly disagree with the "Size matters" argument of Rugby Tears, and in some respects this view could fuel an Arms race like GPS is frequently acused of having.

Good athletes at Div 2 schools may be "encouraged" to enrol at ISA div 1 schools or CAS/GPS. The talent pool and wide base will be diminished. The collective masses need to look at ways of helping grow the game and rugby programmes in the "weaker" schools.

An 8 team competition is a nice number. So what if there are easybeats in that competition, there are at the Rugby World Cup, the Olympics and DiveBall World cup as well. Why should ISA be any different?

Last time I looked, the ISA charter was about participation not winning. Parents need to remember that sport is a "normal" school activity that is not run solely for the benefits of parents to provide them with bragging rights.

How can a 1600 student school vs a 800 student school be considered competing on a level playing field? To paraphrase J. Stalin "there is a certain quality in quanty".

Any move to relegate Kinross, Greg's and Andrew's to Div 2 would be counter productive, and most likely against the ISA charter, IMHO.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Game report from SMH (The Fitz Files)

After a shellacking by St Augustine's the week before, last Saturday the St Andrew's 1st XV had their last game of the season against St Pats Strathfield - a particularly significant day, as it has turned into their annual fund-raising game in memory of Kundayi Chiundiza, who passed away after a rugby game for the school two years ago, with the funds going to a school being built in his honour in Zimbabwe.

Played at St Andrews Oval, Sydney Uni, in front of a large crowd of supporters, the St Andrews lads were underdogs from the start but, with the help of a will to win nearly as strong as the wind at their backs, managed to make it to a 5-all score at half-time, and even to 10-all with 20 minutes to go. From this point St Pats spent so much time in the 22 of St Andrew's you'd swear they were paying rent, but tackling themselves red-raw the locals still held them out, until, finally, with three minutes left, St Pats scored in the corner for a commanding 15-10 lead over their exhausted opponents.

Just one last chance now. Retrieving the ball in - where else? - their own 22, and with nothing left on the clock, St Andrew's ruck and maul like men possessed, let it out to the backs, and then ruck and maul some more, as the crowd rises to their feet. Could they? Will they? Fifty metres out. Forty metres. They're in St Pat's 22. The St Andrews No.8 Filia Talanoa has it, and he is on the charge. Ramming speed. He breaks the first line, breaks the second line, and sets sail for the promised land until five desperate St Pats cover defenders get to him 10 metres out. However, as Filia goes down he just manages to flick out a Benji Marshall-esque pass to the hooker, Stu Takau, who hauls it in and heads for the line, even as the remaining defenders race to jump on him. Four metres … three … two … he dives just inside the corner post and … try, try, TRY in the corner, try for your life, I'll tell a man it is!

It's 15-15 with the kick to come, not that anyone has high hopes of that, so strong and contrary is the wind. In fact, so strong that three times after the kicker sets it up, the wind knocks the ball over. Or maybe it is the gusting squalls of rain. Still, all the kicker, Zayde Alvarado, can do is try. And no matter that he has already missed two much easier kicks. He lines it up, moves in and connects. The ball takes off like a sick black duck - low, wobbling, weaving, dipping and diving, trying for high altitude but failing miserably. Instead it keeps wobbling near to the ground, heading for the only other thing there that looks like mother duck - the black dot on the cross-bar. As the crowd alternately roars and holds its breath, the ball hits that black dot and bounces up! Up! Up! Up! And … over! Goal. A 17-15 victory to St Andrew's, with the St Pats lads being the first to congratulate them. And that, my friends, is rugby.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/the-fitz-files/its-time-to-revisit-the-crawford-report-20120817-24e2f.html#ixzz23sS8Iytk

 

[angrydog]

Given that you guys travel as far as Orange for a game, would anybody entertain the thought of allowing Marist and St Edmunds from Canberra into the ISA rugby? Would benefit schools as both ends I think.

 

[Blackers13]

Given that you guys travel as far as Orange for a game, would anybody entertain the thought of allowing Marist and St Edmunds from Canberra into the ISA rugby? Would benefit schools as both ends I think.

A very good idea. Can they field teams down to D's and E's in most age groups?

 

[Wood Rat]

Given that you guys travel as far as Orange for a game, would anybody entertain the thought of allowing Marist and St Edmunds from Canberra into the ISA rugby? Would benefit schools as both ends I think.

Great Idea to improve competition all 'round
though wouldn't you feal a bit dirty dancing with teams like Augies and Gregs

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Have to tread very carefully with reorganising competitions.

Bringing a Canberra team/s into the maelstrom of Sydney Schoolboy sports would need to be carefully managed at both ends.

What would be the effect on the Canberra competition (which is a combined school/club competition IIRC) if Marist and St Edmunds pulled out of them?

ISA schools usually play a soccer, hockey, tennis and some other sports. Would you contemplate going the full Monty and joining the ISA boots and all?

Could be a very late night for the Kinross Boys for the Canberra trip and vice versa (as if they don't already travel a fair bit.)

There is scope to rationalise ALL school sporting competitions across all associations on a merit basis with all the usual "level playing field", promotion/relegation, "regular strong competition" etc arguments supporting that concept.

Unfortunately the reality is that there is a lot of tradition to be undone, hatchets to be buried, politics to be resolved, school calendars to be synchronised, peace to be obtained in the Middle East and nuclear weapons to be decommissioned, before we will see a Schoolboy 1st Division competition containing Barker, Knox, Joeys, New, Augies, Oakhill, Hills Sports, Sydney Juniors Club 1, View, St Stannies, Scots, and CCC Presidents Selection, or some such selection of roughly equivalent talent.


They manage to achieve similar in the Shakey Isles to a degree, but the whole country is smaller than Sydney population wise and Rugby has never been a niche sport played mainly in the private schools. The Schools Rugby Tribune results suggest that the majority of their "better rugby schools" are from the public system.