Ireland v Wallabies - Sunday 1 Dec, 2:10 AEDT

[LeCheese]

Finally had a chance to watch the replay - some rambling thoughts:

Yet again the lack of consistency in officiating head contact is just so fucking frustrating. The head contact on Valetini should have been an easy yellow card. Despicable decision and good on Turinui for blowing up on commentary. At least all the officiating across the game was consistently inconsistent for both teams. A shame that a deciding Irish score came off a questionable call, but the Wobs got lucky on a few occasions too. Don’t think the hometown replays (and lack thereof) were doing any favours either.

It’s become clear over the last several weeks that we have absolutely no idea how to deal with a messy (and maybe illegal) breakdown. Needs a lot of work before the Lions.

Defensive work, especially in our red zone, was excellent. In Laurie we trust, I guess?

I was keenly watching Noah’s clearances and kicks to touch and his technique is very much one that hooks the kick across his body - good for maximising foot speed, but not so much accuracy and makes the angle more obtuse relative to where his hips are facing. Could explain the issues we’re seeing. Prendergast’s technique (and Lynagh’s for the matter) is very much the antithesis. I thought Noah had a decent showing otherwise, although his accuracy on the attacking chip kicks also just isn’t quite there.

Very happy with JAS’ performance on this tour, but a season of Super should do him wonders to get settled. I still get worried every time he goes to make a tackle - his body height is still way too rugba loig.

A special mention for Harry Wilson. For someone who has been not-quite-good-enough for several years, he seems to have found his groove in both his core role as an international 8 with some X-factor, and as captain. The balance and complementary nature of the back row with Wilson, McReight, and Valetini is sublime.

 

[Tomthumb]

Yes but also no. It's Gordon and McDermott who really let us down here. Most teams exit via boxkick these days.

McDermott looked particulaly at sea when he came on. He really is not the 9 you want when under the pump in your own half for 40 minutes.

Noah once again got schooled in the out of hand kicking department but he was also instrumental in keeping us in the game being heavily involved in our try and kicking off the tee nicely.

Does not seem we have a solution for this issue currently.

Yes agree, but I look at a 10s kicking game as a must and a 9s kicking game as great to have but not totally needed if your 10 can control the game

You are right we don’t have a ready made solution. That why I’m for trying others as IMO we are a top class 10 away from being one of if not the the best team in the world

 

[Tomthumb]

The issues with our exits and execution of box kicks etc. is also due to a misaligned skill set priorities between our club and national teams.

For example when I heard Kiss talk earlier in the year he spoke about how the box kick was an overused strategy and the Reds wouldn’t be looking to use it as a core exit kick.

Based on the way the national team is playing and what our opponents do to us, players like Tate will need to improve that part of their game as an additional training skill.

Yeah but as Argentina have proved this year, you don’t need a box kick if your 10 has a boot

 

[Ignoto]

Surely theres an AFL player or two we could pinch and chuck at fullback to give us some booming kicks.

Hell, Latham played soccer so maybe we could find someone there who's got a turpedo in their kit.

 

[PhilClinton]

Surely theres an AFL player or two we could pinch and chuck at fullback to give us some booming kicks.

Hell, Latham played soccer so maybe we could find someone there who's got a turpedo in their kit.

Daniher just retired after winning a premiership.

I wonder if he’d be interested in a couple of dollars to kick the living piss out of the ball.

In all seriousness though I think we have a great forward pack at the moment and I’d back us to dominate lineouts and put pressure on the opposition in their own 22, if we could consistently play down there.

 

[stillmissit]

if we could consistently play down there.

Very true Phil but we need a pack going forward with a fast clean out at BD giving the kicker time to make ground or open them up.

 

[emuarse]

Yes agree, but I look at a 10s kicking game as a must and a 9s kicking game as great to have but not totally needed if your 10 can control the game

You are right we don’t have a ready made solution. That why I’m for trying others as IMO we are a top class 10 away from being one of if not the the best team in the world

Have the Springbok moved to Mars?

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

Front row held its own and was pleased to see us do well at scrum etc without bell. But how good a sub would he have been…..
Agree LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) was quiet but starters were solid across the board and feels like we again have depth in the second row as we look at Skelton too.
Back row is so good.
Fraser is ridiculous, it’s like we barely miss hoops. Very easy transition!
Valetini consistent and hard as ever. Yes should’ve been a yellow but if our player had done that head shot we’d be saying it’s a rugby incident. Overall no bad intent. I was ok for it to go.
His high elbow was a bad call
We are losing the living battle badly. Several instances where we lost 20m and forked over possession. So when Joe says run more - gees that’s why!
Max has a big kick so surprised we don’t get him back there more to field vs Noah?
Ikitau was better than all the ratings are saying
JAS - overall fine. Ball don’t get to him much this game and yes defense not bad but he was close to a few flirtations w danger in technique.
Tom wright good. Max mostly solid.
our defense scares me a bit. We drift too long I reckon and should close the space sooner. Not blitz, drift drift and close versus drift drift drift drift close.
BIL will be Ireland and Scotland with a smattering of English. God help the welsh. I’m reasonably confident that with a full strength team we could actually take it. At least it will be close.
Should get another warm up game. I’d prefer not to play the Fijians who could kill a few players w their monster hits!

 

[dru]

Not that it really matters but how are we going to end up on the rankings?

8

In essence, we are so lowly ranked against Ireland losing to them has no impact on the rankings. None. We finish the EOYT up one positiojn. And that is a pass - though we did achieve it against England.

More importantly, the Wallabies have shown a direction of their game and their improvement. BIL coming here are going to feel as highly favoured, but "who knows" with the Wallabies. It's a much better starting point than we looked like having.

It doesn't shift "tier 2" statements imo, but I do think ends the odd "tier 3" statement.

 

[JRugby2]

They don’t win the game without his monster boot

Not what I'm debating. He can kick a ball far and probably why he was picked. Otherwise was bang average at best

 

[dru]

The difference between the lineout success this week and the abysmal performance last week perfectly illustrates the detrimental effect playing Skelton has on the team. His other assets, ability to disrupt the opposition maul and atytracting multiple defenders when carrying don't compensate for the losses of possession and territory that occur by not having a proper jumper in the lineout. Just how many carries did he make in the game against Scotland? I seem to recall someone listing it as about 6 or 8 carries only, and every one of them was easily handled by the Scottish defence. We, and that means Schmidt and his assistants, should now realise that we have sufficient effective Locks here and as far as test selection is concerned, put Skelton out to pasture.

@BR I come to the same conclusion, but mate, you are being somewhat harsh on Skelton. He is just a fabulous talent - a one-off even. Our problem is he has not prioritised Wallaby access for his talents and he becomes a B plan that just does not make ends meet compared to the alternative. That alternative being (Starting) Frost Williams; Valetini, McReight, Wilson. Now every one of those (bar possibly Valetini) has challenges that might provide a different selection. But any alternative with Skelton, does not have enough time availability in training to beat the alternative. It very possibly would be different if Skelton returned to Aus in 2025.

 

[JRugby2]

Finally watched it. I think it was a very good Wallabies' effort. If you look at the numbers Ireland had the better of most stats. Our defence is really becoming a positive - I know last week was a bit off but the trajectory overall is excellent.
As others have noted we need to get more mileage from kicks - it's just not good enough to be 20-30m shorter than the opponents. Apart from the distance on his kicks from hand, Lolesio was good.
The refereeing was really not Test standard. We did not lose because of it, but rugby did. There were dud calls both ways. The non-yellow for the head contact on Valetini was a howler though. Just not close to consistent with multiple similar incidents in recent times that have all been yellow, at least (this one was a yellow every day of the week).
With a little bit of luck we'd have had 3 wins from 4, something few would have realistically predicted pre-tour. A good tour.

I'm completely fine with it being a PK only (low danger in HCP can be PK only without anything to mitigate) and assume that the referee's have made relevant adjustments from earlier games where they may have been over zealous with cards.

But at this level they need to find ways to communicated to fans/ commentators so we don't get confusion week to week, if that is the case.

 

[Tomthumb]

Have the Springbok moved to Mars?

No, they lost to Ireland and Argentina this year though

 

[BDA]

Finally got a chance to watch the full game. A few thoughts:
1. My biggest take away is how far this team has come in since the first wales game back in June. I remember at that time looking at the team and the way they were playing a thinking we dont have the players, there's nothing we do that well, we're soft defensively and lack any xfactor or point of difference. My perception of what is possible over the next 3 years is now much different.
2. I felt we looked to have tired legs in the second half. Probably to be expected given we were at the end of a long season.
3. Ireland probably played poorly by their standards but i think that was at least in part due to the pressure we created
4. I think the Lions tour is unfortunately coming about 12 months too early and based on schmidts post match presser he believes as such. You only have to look at the fact that we had 4 or 5 guys coming off the bench with little to no test experience. A guy like Kailea really looks like he has the makings of a quality test prop but he needs more seasoning as do many of our players.
5. That backrow combo of wilson/mcreight/Valetini is without question a world class backrow

All in all a successful tour in my books

 

[rod skellet]

Having watched the replay and read these comments I offer the following.

The level of possesion and territorry Ireland had was enough to win two games. The fact the Wallabies were still in it up to the final 5 minutes was very commendable.

Losing Bell prior to the game hurt, but our previous archilles heal of a weak front row was not evident in this game.

It was a pity Skelton was not available but our 2nd row stocks are healthy. Frost and Williams along with our settled back row meant that the Wallbies forward pack is now competative with the best save Sth Africa.

I will leave the comments on the inconsistency of the ref as it has been well covered and I agree with most. None of the 50/50 calls went our way and the fact that 2 Irish tries were scored of these close calls was disappointing.

So how could we have won this game.

I have not seen anyone comment directly on the Irish 5/8 clearing kicks, but three of his long kicks were torpedos. Do we have any back that can kick a torpedo consistently Roger Gould style??. When kicking inside the 22, a competent torpedo kicker can put the ball out over half way. That result immediately lifts the forwards. Also when kicking for touch from a penalty, why our current kickers do not use a drop punt aussie rules style is just beyond me. Every 5/8 from club rugby and up, must be schooled in dropping the ball 8m max from the touch line using the drop punt. Not kicking 10 rows back in the stand but only gaining 15 to 20m downfield. Lolosio sadly just does not have it in his game.

I am on the wrong side of 60 and can still drop punt a ball 30m. Our wallabies should be doing 50m with their eyes shut.

What this means is that a penalty on halfway turns into a lineout 5m out. This lifts the forwards and certainly puts the opposition in two minds on giving away penalties. Invariably the wallabies have been on the receiving end of 14 plus penalties a game.

If we can find touch with real depth and keep penalties to under 10 per game with everything else being equal, the Wallabies will be a top 5 nation again.

 

[cyclopath]

Having watched the replay and read these comments I offer the following.

The level of possesion and territorry Ireland had was enough to win two games. The fact the Wallabies were still in it up to the final 5 minutes was very commendable.

Losing Bell prior to the game hurt, but our previous archilles heal of a weak front row was not evident in this game.

It was a pity Skelton was not available but our 2nd row stocks are healthy. Frost and Williams along with our settled back row meant that the Wallbies forward pack is now competative with the best save Sth Africa.

I will leave the comments on the inconsistency of the ref as it has been well covered and I agree with most. None of the 50/50 calls went our way and the fact that 2 Irish tries were scored of these close calls was disappointing.

So how could we have won this game.

I have not seen anyone comment directly on the Irish 5/8 clearing kicks, but three of his long kicks were torpedos. Do we have any back that can kick a torpedo consistently Roger Gould style??. When kicking inside the 22, a competent torpedo kicker can put the ball out over half way. That result immediately lifts the forwards. Also when kicking for touch from a penalty, why our current kickers do not use a drop punt aussie rules style is just beyond me. Every 5/8 from club rugby and up, must be schooled in dropping the ball 8m max from the touch line using the drop punt. Not kicking 10 rows back in the stand but only gaining 15 to 20m downfield. Lolosio sadly just does not have it in his game.

I am on the wrong side of 60 and can still drop punt a ball 30m. Our wallabies should be doing 50m with their eyes shut.

What this means is that a penalty on halfway turns into a lineout 5m out. This lifts the forwards and certainly puts the opposition in two minds on giving away penalties. Invariably the wallabies have been on the receiving end of 14 plus penalties a game.

If we can find touch with real depth and keep penalties to under 10 per game with everything else being equal, the Wallabies will be a top 5 nation again.

Lolesio can kick a penalty from 48m out that easily goes 55m. He can generate the speed to get better distance - either with a drop punt or conventional punt. I think it's a confidence issue - he does not want to miss touch, and aims conservatively with penalty kicks for touch and kicks in general play. I completely agree it's a problem but I reckon he can, and should do much better.

 

[Tomthumb]

Lolesio can kick a penalty from 48m out that easily goes 55m. He can generate the speed to get better distance - either with a drop punt or conventional punt. I think it's a confidence issue - he does not want to miss touch, and aims conservatively with penalty kicks for touch and kicks in general play. I completely agree it's a problem but I reckon he can, and should do much better.

But he does miss touch from his open field clearing kicks, quite a lot

 

[Pfitzy]

I remember:
- Two missed touch kicks from marks
- One missed touch kick in general play
- Another kick fielded in our 22 was run out

There's a reason territory was 76% against: we didn't exit. Ireland lineout was there for the taking

 

[cyclopath]

But he does miss touch from his open field clearing kicks, quite a lot

Yep. I think he has the attributes to kick much better. Guys like Wright and Jorgensen could be options at times too.

 

[NCT]

JAS - I had to check a few times to see if he was on the field, just didn't seem to be active in attack, and saw at least one shoulder charge on a player who had already got rid of the ball.

Also noticed him walking slowly to get back inside, real lack of urgency which I think is a league thing. Given his size and alleged skill set Wallabies need him to be racing back every time, looking to get the ball in his hands.

Tupou was surprisingly active in defence - really good low tackles and a great break. Still think he should last more than 45 minutes.

Backrow were very good and really like what Williams brings.

Kicking - the Irish were accurate in their crossfield kick-pass, Wallabies were not. Need to work on that, plus the distance in kicking for touch and box kicks.