If the ARC was to ever develop, or come again

[RugbyFuture]

A bunch of you are going to immediately dismiss this saying its never going to happen, but i think the conferance system is going to expand like many of us want into unique comps and a heinekin cup style finals series.

So i was thinking about some of the problems of the ARC and mainly its to do with branding and history, so i've been developing various things for if it was to ever come about again, of course, completely hypothetical. You've seen my team and geographical planning, and of course, we all see the awesome Icon/logo at the helm of this thread (much better than the one they used) but i noticed, every codes major national comp has or trys to be an iconic trophy, you have that mungo one where the two guys are embracing eachother in the rain (leaning in for a kiss?) you have the great toilet seat of the A league (designed by d3 design) and the premiership cup of the AFL.

if it was to happen again, this would be a chance to introduce some history into a competition which would most likely be complained about by USyd et al about lack of history. So what i propose is the Barrack Square Shield, named after the Square (part of which is now wynard) that it is said rugby was first played at in australia.

It would be a stylised shield/trophy, like two shields which intersect in the centre, on a round base, made out of a uniquely modern material like carbon fibre, wood and silver. Thats Just an idea, i tried to render it up, but im afraid its quite complex for an illustrator rendering and im not good enough at CAD right now. but yeh, opinions on it? or was this post not worth posting?

 

[RugbyFuture]

bump with best attempt at greyscale frame rendering

 

[Langthorne]

As much as I like the idea of an ARC, I think the way to achieve a national competition is to include the existing clubs and competitions. The two ideas that spring to mind are: a round robin comp (to be hosted in a single region) between the top teams from each region - probably at the end of the existing season; or a big knockout comp open to all top division teams.

An iconic trophy woud be nice too.

As an aside, I'd also advocate some kind of 'origin' series, but what does origin mean in terms of eligability.

 

[en_force_er]

As much as I like the idea of an ARC, I think the way to achieve a national competition is to include the existing clubs and competitions. The two ideas that spring to mind are: a round robin comp (to be hosted in a single region) between the top teams from each region - probably at the end of the existing season; or a big knockout comp open to all top division teams.

An FA Cup style competition would be cute. Perhaps it could be entered by any club in the country that wants to, but they need to pay their own way in. As such qualification would be region appropriate, no teams from Sydney playing teams from WA first round.

The fact it'll be pay your own way will mean it will limit a bunch of clubs but I'm sure we could get some interesting teams putting the funds together every couple of years.

However this comp would be to grow the game at grass routes level rather then to develop players, I think a real ARC in possible but not in the way you have put forward RF, as alluring as it sounds. You certainly have some good ideas though.

 

[TOCC]

ARC is a dead dream, the closest Australia will come to a ARC will be a expanded Super Rugby series orientated more on the conference system...

 

[Rob42]

Origin would be interesting, but wouldn't ever happen because it'd weaken the image of the Waratahs and Reds if you had different, "real" NSW and QLD teams running around.

Good thread though, I like to see what ideas people have out there for this. I think it has to use the current comps, clubs as a foundation, as someone mentioned above. Synthesise a new tier of teams and you disenfranchise the big clubs, and end with something like the A-League.

 

[en_force_er]

ARC is a dead dream, the closest Australia will come to a ARC will be a expanded Super Rugby series orientated more on the conference system...

The ARC in any way shape or form similar to what it was is a dead dream.

Perhaps if anyone wants to pitch a theoretical new Australian Rugby Bournemouth they shouldn't call it ARC for fear of being heckled, the reality is all ARC means is Australian Rugby Championship.

 

[RugbyFuture]

however this comp would be to grow the game at grass routes level rather then to develop players, I think a real ARC in possible but not in the way you have put forward RF, as alluring as it sounds. You certainly have some good ideas though.

ARC is a dead dream, the closest Australia will come to a ARC will be a expanded Super Rugby series orientated more on the conference system...

I think some of you have missed some sentences in the Article, my point was that the ARC would be the expanded super rugby conferances, but that it would need some kind of national platform in order to not be seen as just another bunch of games leading up to the finals series. In time I see the Currie Cup and ITM cup integrating into super rugby over time, maybe even with the Argentine Teams.

The whole point of this thread however, is to develop and come up and display the ideas of how this national platform, the media and marketing would come about.

 

[en_force_er]

I think some of you have missed some sentences in the Article, my point was that the ARC would be the expanded super rugby conferances, but that it would need some kind of national platform in order to not be seen as just another bunch of games leading up to the finals series. In time I see the Currie Cup and ITM cup integrating into super rugby over time, maybe even with the Argentine Teams.

The whole point of this thread however, is to develop and come up and display the ideas of how this national platform, the media and marketing would come about.

I think as far as fully professional outfits we can support we have 5 teams in our 5 most populous cities. I don't think this can or should be changed.

The work to do with the ARC would have to mostly be done in achieving a clearer hierarchy with strong links to each level above and bellow the one they are playing at.

 

[Bowside]

I think we can and should have the provinces/academies play a round robin competition.

Weather it happens during the super rugby season as a secondary thing, or during the test season as a domestic side-show depends on what is most feasible. Ideally they would play identical U20 and Open competitions, maybe even 7's or U18 as well. But thats not feasible yet.

 

[en_force_er]

Because it is relevant to this thread, I’ve just written up a very basic structure of what Australian rugby could (and should in my opinion) look like.
I am just one man and perhaps this could be better fleshed out in parts so view it as something potentially great but uncompleted. If a part doesn’t make sense feel free to ask about it because I tried (and failed) to keep this concise so it is missing bits and pieces.
It’s divided up into clear tiers all linked to one another. Anyway, here it is:

1st Tier: Australian Rugby Cup
This level would run within the Super competition and would basically just be the ladder for our Super conference. Bar the Wallabies, this would be the only level of full professionalism.

Teams:

• NSW Waratahs
• Qld Reds
• Victorian & Southern States Rebels
  Melbourne would be their home but the name change simply an attempt to be more encompassing of South Australia. Much like the ACT the full name won’t have to be used all the time.
• ACT and Southern NSW Brumbies
• Western Australian Force

If Super rugby does head toward absorbing the ITM/Currie Cups and we need more teams 1 or 2 for our conference they could come from Japan and maybe one from the Pacific Islands (pretty iffy about the PIs though). These teams would be part of our conference but not the Australian Rugby Cup. Pretty simple really.

2nd Tier: Australian Rugby Plate
This level would replace the current Academy games and would run as a home OR away series throughout the first 7 weeks of the Super competition. They would whenever possible be run as opening fixtures for the Aussie Super rugby team’s games (particularly in WA’s case because it will keep costs down).
The players in this league would range from professionals/semi-professionals to players who are close to getting contracts.
The big provinces (Qld and NSW) would be expected to run two teams each in this league. Obviously NSW has by far the most depth but many of their players will play for the ACT and perhaps a few for Vic and WA.

Teams:

• Greater Western Sydney Rams (Waratah affiliated)
  Their catchment area would consist of Eastwood, West Harbour, Parramatta, Penrith and NSW Country. I am not familiar with Sydney’s geography/club quality so pretend I’ve divded up the clubs evenly.
• Central Sydney Fleet (Waratah affiliated)
  Their catchment area would consist of the inner Sydney Clubs, clubs like Eastern Suburbs, University, Randwick ect.
• Brisbane Pride (Reds affiliated)
  Their catchment area would consist of Brothers, GPS, Norths/QUT, Sunshine Coast Rugby, University and Wests.
  Named as in Lion pride, clever ey?
• Greater East Coast Sharks (Reds affiliated)
  Their catchment area would consist of Easts Tigers, Souths, Sunnybank, Gold Coast Breakers and Qld Country.
• ACT Brumby Runners (Brumby affiliated)
  Their catchment area would consist of ACT Club Rugby.
  
• Western Australia Spirit (Force affiliated)
  Their catchment area would consist of Western Australian Club Rugby.
  
• Victorian Axemen (Rebels affiliated)
  Their catchment area would consist of Victorian and South Australian Club Rugby.

Dealing out the players for this league would be complicated, so stick with me.
The Reds/Waratah affiliates could pick their side from any players associated with their Super rugby team and one of their clubs or minor unions (for example, Taff Polota Nau is a Paramatta man so if he didn't make the Tah's 22 he'd be eligible for Greater Western Sydney).
This means they’d get to choose from unneeded Super rugby players, extended squad players and academy players as WELL as any other player from the clubs/smaller unions in their catchment.
The other teams affiliated with smaller rugby provinces would be able to pick members their Super squad or extended Super squad. The rest of their 22 must be made up of players playing locally or players who have play 3 or more years in the catchment areas as juniors or seniors (for example Seilala Lam could play for the Runners.)
The teams would not be able to include any members of the Super team’s 22 that week or the previous week if the Super team has a BYE that week. The Super team’s staff can elect fit players to be rested if deemed necessary.

3rd Tier: Australian Rugby Bowl
A competition to replace what was the APC and what currently is the Southern States Championship. Completely amateur and played over a long weekend much like the schoolboy tournaments.
Teams would consist only of players who are amateur and played for a club in the side’s catchment area that year. They can have played Plate level.
This comp would help act as a link to grass routes and make sure players from the smaller unions don't slip through the cracks.

Teams:

• Western Australian Sprit Development (Force affiliated)
• Victorian Axemen Development (Rebels affiliated)
• South Australian Black Falcons (loosely Rebels affiliated)
• ACT Brumby Runners Development (Brumbies affiliated)
• NSW Country Cockatoos (Waratah and Greater Western Sydney affiliated)
• Qld Country Blue Heelers (Reds and Greater East Coast affiliated)

Potential other teams:

• Tassie Jumping Jacks and Northern Territory Mosquitoes.
• Perhaps NSW and Qld Subbies.
• Possibly invitational teams (Fiji Warriors for example).

4th Tier: Australian Rugby Shields (Shute Shield, Hospital Cup, John I Dent Cup, Dewar Shield ect)
This will be the name given to the tier we currently call club rugby. Obviously not ALL the state union’s competitions are played for a Shield but most are, if they aren’t it’s not really an issue because a union has a right to call their own comp what they want.
My only change to this level of rugby is the it should move to start and end 4-6 weeks later, at least in each of the Super province’s flagship competitions.
This will ensure that there won’t be issues with transitioning players from Plate to Shield level and that we don’t leave the ITM/Currie cup window completely Aussie Rugby free.

 

[en_force_er]

If anybody reads that I will be very very pleased as it took me a while to write up and I think it has some interesting ideas.

 

[TOCC]

Enforcer i did read it, and there are some interesting ideas in there.... However, realistically this is the more probably path(2015 onwards)...

Tier 1 = Super Rugby (expanded with maybe a extra Australian/Fijian/Japan team)
Tier 2 = Premier Grade(Shute Shield, QLD Premier Grade etc)
Tier 3 = Australian Rugby Shield(QLD Country Heelers, NSW Country etc etc)

Reality is that the Super Rugby series is likely to continue to expand, the result is that there will be less time for Super Rugby players to participate in other tiers of rugby(ala NRL/AFL). The result will be that any proposal to turn another tier of rugby professional will crash and burn as the main propuct(the players) arent involved, the only other likely idea is some kind of merge between NSW and QLD premier grades as they try to improve competiveness, it will however only ever reach semi-professionalism.

 

[chief]

I'd like to really see the Sunshine Coast expand their Rugby that's for sure. I think there is great room for them, as they have no NRL team, and they really took well to the success of the Sunshine Coast in Premier Grade this year, with fairly large crowds showing up. They've got a decent size stadium down there, and I think taking a Trial match down there should just be a start, if an ARC was to come back, I would support fully the addition of the Sunshine Coast.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Interesting suggestions. I am of similar belief to that of RF that the move toward the conference system appears to be a pretty clear indication that in the future we very well may see the intergration of both the Currie Cup and ITM Cup (2011 format onwards) intergrated into Super Rugby. There may be the possiblity of a PI Super franchise but I'd imagine they would play out of the New Zealand conference with the guy that owns the Warriors licence in the NRL previously putting forth a proposal for a combined side playing out of Mt Smart stadium in Auckland. I think we will see the introduction of a Western Sydney, second Queensland based squad and possibly even an Adelaide team.

Below this I think the best we could hope for is some sort of B League set up to run alongside Super Rugby.

I do like your of the Aus Rugby Bowl. Similar to the old ARS and would provide Rugby with a good strong amateur competition capable of being used as a development tool for younger player's. Could even be an alternative to a U20s Chmapionship. Add in the Mozzies and both Brisbane and Sydney subbies teams that would give you a solid 9 teams.

What I would like to see is an Australian Schools Rugby Championship. The winners of the various schoolboys competitions (GPS,QLD GPS,CAS,ISA,CHS Vic and WA eqivalents) face off in a finals series to determined the best team in the land.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I'd like to really see the Sunshine Coast expand their Rugby that's for sure. I think there is great room for them, as they have no NRL team, and they really took well to the success of the Sunshine Coast in Premier Grade this year, with fairly large crowds showing up. They've got a decent size stadium down there, and I think taking a Trial match down there should just be a start, if an ARC was to come back, I would support fully the addition of the Sunshine Coast.

I'd even go as far as to say that if another Queensland based Super squad were to emerge they should be based out of the Sunshine Coast. The Gold Coast will soon be over subscribed with professional sporting organisations. Entering a saturated market as the last major player would be very diffeicult. Entering a region with no major code representation would give them free run of the community support and potential talent base.

 

[Nusadan]

I'd even go as far as to say that if another Queensland based Super squad were to emerge they should be based out of the Sunshine Coast. The Gold Coast will soon be over subscribed with professional sporting organisations. Entering a saturated market as the last major player would be very diffeicult. Entering a region with no major code representation would give them free run of the community support and potential talent base.

Having lived in the Sunshine Coast for seven years and played a season with Noosa Dolphins before the advent of SC Stingrays, I can say SC is very much a rugby stronghold although the local league is pretty strong there...but the major schools in there are actively involved in rugby with local competitions so I would daresay there is great scope for another Super team to be based there. Also SC is within a hour's drive from Brisbane's north so there is additional population to draw supporters from. The demographics there as compared to the bogans found in the Gold Coast certainly suit rugby!

 

[RugbyFuture]

since we're talking specifics now, i think there will end up being

1.National Representation (wallabies, A, Under 21 & Schoolboy)
2.State Representation (Rugby State of Origin, Reds and Waratahs made this level, new teams established in next tier)
3.ARC clubs (within the superugby qualification format, but with the Barrack Square Shield up for grabs)
4.City Premierships, junior reps etc etc (shute shield, CHS, CAS, GPS bla bla bla everything underneath)

en_force_er, I see your point with the clubs, but there needs to be a lookout for more and much better branding than that. I would put forward at the least, from my list the name of the brisbane team as the "Brisbane Boars"

 

[en_force_er]

since we're talking specifics now, i think there will end up being

1.National Representation (wallabies, A, Under 21 & Schoolboy)
2.State Representation (Rugby State of Origin, Reds and Waratahs made this level, new teams established in next tier)

I just don't think union will ever need, or will ever have a state of origin. Playing for the state you wish to play for makes much more sense.
3.ARC clubs (within the superugby qualification format, but with the Barrack Square Shield up for grabs)
4.City Premierships, junior reps etc etc (shute shield, CHS, CAS, GPS bla bla bla everything underneath)

en_force_er, I see your point with the clubs, but there needs to be a lookout for more and much better branding than that. I would put forward at the least, from my list the name of the brisbane team as the "Brisbane Boars"
Pride is along with the Lion theme Brisbane is taking on (Lion/Roar). I think that would make perfect sense. Also, names weren't really what I was going for, it's more about the concept of a system set-up like this.

 

[Sully]

Nicely written Enforcer. Personally I see problems with funding especially when we would be creating entirely new teams

I would be interested in people's opinion of developing a competition from the top teams in the State comps. Initially a Top 4 with the top 2 from Brisbane and Sydney. but gradually bringing more teams in from other comps. The teams would change if they didn't finish high enough in their local comp.