Ideas for NRC

[Rugbynutter39]

Have to say I am more than a little bit concerned with the removal of the Stars and the realignment of Souths to the Rays side.

I have a feeling that with these changes, the Rams will struggle big time to put a competitive side on the field (especially if Eastwood also decide to go North), and after a few years of perhaps struggling at the basement end of the ladder the temptation will be there to remove them also.

Alternatively, if most of the displaced Stars' players elect to go to the Rams, then NSW Country could find themselves in the situation I described above.

And I cannot see a lot of ex-Stars' fans (were there ever lots?) transferring their allegiances to either the Eagles or the Rams.

I accept that the model of the Stars being essentially a one-SS backed side probably wasn't going to survive long term, but I just hope that its demise is not the first in a chain of similar problems for the NRC.

I am not sure what the solution should be, but I have an uneasy feeling that it might need to embrace two NRC teams supported by the Brumbies, with three teams remaining in Sydney (Rays, Rams and Stars) where the Stars must be supported by Randwick and Easts as well as Uni. Don't know if anyone can bang heads and make it happen.

If Country played all their home games in Eastern suburbs as former stars supporter (read inner west resident) would support Country. But not going to support a team that only plays one home game in Sydney.

I would have love Stars to be successful but the one team concept as starting base I thought made it bridge too far - particularly without any promotional support.

I probably will support Rams provided they continue to play odd game in inner west (re: concord or leichardt) with option for me to travel further west to attend another game (which with country won't have an option so not interested in supporting) but yes concerned Rams left very weak with the changes and also not interested in supporting a team being whipped every week.

I don't feel the changes have been well thought through at all. Just plain dumb.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Probably missed opportunity with collapse of Stars - as idea of NRC team based out of inner west good but starting with one team SS model with min. promotional support meant would struggle and fail.

As I live in Five Dock and have large group of sports mad mates (other dads etc) in the area who we regularly organise variety of sporting events to attend with them. I am the mad rugby nutter amongst them. Not untypical for many in the area suspect as lot of young families etc with changing demographics.

Taken a few mates along to NRC matches at leichardt over last 2 years and those that could convince to come they enjoyed it. But biggest thing which limits attraction and ability to attract other mad keep sports followers (not the hard core rugby fans) was small crowds as for those not initiated created negative perceptions. Got to remember my mates and I have many sporting choices as we go to cricket games, odd soccer game (chelsea vs Sydney FC, sydney fc vs wanderers) and Waratah's games etc. Always had interest in rugby but grown through super rugby, nrc where probably would even go to odd SS game if was closer to home. Use to go to lot of live AFL games but interest wanned and can only follow so many sports and with more quality rugby on offer, AFL fell off that list.

Organised and took 8 mates to Sydney Rugby 7's who were general sports fans but not regular rugby watchers. As entertainment package was electric and now got not only them queuing up for next year but about another 5 mates badgering me about coming to next years Sevens event.

My point is sure got to get product right (eg strong teams) but also get reasonable level of crowd support with right balance of other stuff to do that to make for good atmosphere that will attract general sports followers alongside initial core of hardened rugby fans. But these are both highly correlated.

I feel need crowds of around 1500 to 2000 for games to build a base for growth and help overcome perception issues for what is a competitive and crowded sports market (spoilt for choice). Clearly never got this with local stars games at leichardt. But saw this at Manly vs Stars game went to at Manly oval and Country vs Canberra at Woollahara.

Manly vs Stars at Manly didn't have much other activities around the game but that was ok and not required as small ground with crowd of 2000 created enough of right atmosphere. whilst Country vs Canberra also worked well as had okay crowd - not quite as big - but food stalls helped create right atmosphere.

Get this sort of balance right and could have taken more mates to NRC games locally and get more converts. Anyhow hope powers that be don't give up on inner west as big growth market but got to get it right. Which is also about the product so hopefully they a) Rams play a few home games in inner west and b) some helpful oversight to ensure decent quality players allocated to Rams so competitive. As seen recent ARU strategic plan had acceptance not done enough to support and grow rugby in Western Sydney and not sure we are seeing NRC also learning from this with recent changes. Hope this is not evidence of all talk and no action. Time will tell.

Might also add - equally if had sort of crowds above with food stalls at Leichhardt for NRC games could have equally got those same mates with their wives and young kids to the games as we do a lot of that stuff with friends in the area. just unfortunately Stars were never positioned to get that as did not have right base of support to build from.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Probably missed opportunity with collapse of Stars - as idea of NRC team based out of inner west good but starting with one team SS model with min. promotional support meant would struggle and fail. <snip>

The Stars didn't collapse. They were collapsed by ARU who have apparently decided not to renew their licence.

The Stars were the best performing (and most inconsistent) NSW NRC team.

Their main failing was the lack of spectators. IIRC their average home crowd was around 600. For a TV game at an oval like Leichhardt that makes for a poor spectacle, especially when one of those games was the thrashing handed out by Brisbane City. IMHO the fact that Stars were a "single Club" team mattered little. If (and it is a big if) they had been able to fill Leichhardt Oval, they would not have been chopped from NRC. If (another big if) they could have managed to do some food and wine/beer promotions at Leichhardt to make for a good atmosphere, they may still be in the competition.

The reality is that given the rosters of the Vikings, Spirit and Rising, and the involvement of their "parent" Super Rugby club, four teams in NSW with little support from the Waratahs was always going to be a bridge too far.

To pare the NSW NRC teams down to three, given the politics of Shute Shield club rugby, the mixed ownership arrangements at each of the existing NRC clubs, along with Waratahs Ltd disinterest was always going to end in tears.

 

[neilc]

You need the Waratahs support for the NSW NRC teams. I don't understand why they are not involved. Here in Qld the Reds run the two teams and do it well. They promote the games, make sure the players are spread between the teams and training is at Reds HQ so have access to everything. The aim is to grow the talent base in Qld rugby overall, which is what NSW should be doing.

 

[TOCC]

You need the Waratahs support for the NSW NRC teams. I don't understand why they are not involved. Here in Qld the Reds run the two teams and do it well. They promote the games, make sure the players are spread between the teams and training is at Reds HQ so have access to everything. The aim is to grow the talent base in Qld rugby overall, which is what NSW should be doing.

QRU also provide coaching, medical, logistical, management and media staff to the teams and access to facilities and resources. All of this lowers the overheads for operating those teams whilst also providing a semi-professional environment for the players.

This is the difference between the rest of Super Rugby backed teams and the NSW teams, player distribution is only one part of the teams performance, the back room staff, resources and facilities is the other 10-20%.

That's why the Tahs need to help out, lower the operating costs of the NSW NRC teams by leveraging some of their resources and improve the professionalism of the teams.


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[dru]

You need the Waratahs support for the NSW NRC teams. I don't understand why they are not involved.

A short hunt for info found this at the point that NSW Waratahs Ltd was created.

"NSW Waratahs Limited is a new, separate and distinct controlling body charged with the sole responsibility of administering all aspects of professional rugby in NSW, including Super Rugby."

It is interesting that the reference is not limited to the franchise. If the media release is reflected in the terms of the license, NSWRU could be holding the Waratahs to account for their non-involvement in the NRC. Of course this presupposes that the NSWRU are interested in the NRC themselves, which is afterall fundamentally an ARU initiative.

I also would think that the ARU could push the matter. The bulk of the Waratahs funding comes from the ARU.

The NRC had something of an open market start. Happy to see some decissions after two years, albeit disappointed re the Stars. But perhaps the "ARU tough love" needs to go further?

We are also seeing, via the current Shute Shield v Pulver discussions, that perhaps the Shute Shield do not have a lock on talent, certainly do not equate to (all of) the grass roots. Perhaps an NRC team based in Western Sydney could be arranged via subbies/Kentwell cup teams. Yes a professional wing would be required. (See opening note regarding Waratah responsibilities.)

On the whole I like what I am seeing (regarding the NRC) from the ARU and remain confused by the Waratahs and the NSWRU.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Certainly selecting via the Kentwell Cup is much less desirable than the Shute Shield which is an established elite structure. But if it came to it, you cannot tell me that strong Kentwell Cup clubs would not be capable of making the step up within a few years if given the opportunity.

The Shute Shield clubs now love to point out the gap between the two. Considering there is zero path to Shute Shield for a club, I cannot see any reason why Kentwell Cup clubs would dedicate their resources to bridging that gap as there is nothing to ever gain presently.

 

[Dave Beat]

God helps us TWAS has changed to cuddly Koala.

 

[Slim 293]

God helps us TWAS has changed to cuddly Koala.

TWAS has always been a Reds supporter...........

 

[Lindommer]

My 2 cents' worth:

• How about the NSWRU get off their collective arses and DO something positive about rugby in that bit of New South Wales which is their responsibility. For starters, get involved in the overall management and support of the NRC teams in this state. On this point the QRU are miles in front of us, leading to successful sides the last two years.
• The collapse/euthanation of the Stars SHOULD lead to some sensible re-organisation of the survivors. Letting Southern Districts wander over to the northern lot smacks of a horse designed by a committee. What's wrong with going back to the ARC model of 2007? A much more sensible geographical grouping.
• I realise Wazza wanted his beloved Leichhardt Oval used for NRC matches, but, really, it belongs in an industrial archaeological museum. I've rabbitted loud and long here for the NRC to use Redfern Oval for its fixtures with its modern facilities, perfect size, near a railway station and PLENTY OF PUBS NEARBY. Who in their right mind would want to have a beer at the Golden Orange Grove Hotel in Lilyfield?
• The advantages of the NRC will start to be realised by the Brumbies and Rebels this year as talented youngsters are hardened up before they pull on a Super jumper. The Force, can't comment. The Reds will surely find a way to fuck up the bounty their two NRC teams could give them. The Tahs should do better here.

corrected

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

My 2 cents' worth:

• How about the NSWRU get off their collective arses and DO something positive about rugby in that bit of New South Wales which is their responsibility. For starters, get involved in the overall management and support of the NRC teams in this state. On this point the QRU are miles in front of us, leading to successful sides the last two years.
• The collapse/euthanation of the Stars SHOULD lead to some sensible re-organisation of the survivors. Letting Southern Districts wander over to the northern lot smacks of a horse designed by a committee. What's wrong with going back to the ARC model of 2007? A much more sensible geographical grouping.
• I realise Wazza wanted his beloved Leichhardt Oval used for NRC matches, but, really, it belongs in an industrial archaeological museum. I've rabbitted loud and long here for the NRC to use Redfern Oval for its fixtures with its modern facilities, perfect size, near a railway station and PLENTY OF PUBS NEARBY. Who in their right mind would want to have a beer at the Golden Grove in Lilyfield?
• The advantages of the NRC will start to be realised by the Brumbies and Rebels this year as talented youngsters are hardened up before they pull on a Super jumper. The Force, can't comment. The Reds will surely find a way to fuck up the bounty their two NRC teams could give them. The Tahs should do better here.

You talk so much sense in that post you should excommunicated just for dare thinking about it. Southern aligning themselves with the Rays is just madness. The ARC alignment does make the most sense (though I'm not too keen on the implications that would have on NSW Country). And the ARU should really be putting a lot more pressure on the Tahs to get involved.

 

[2bluesfan]

I wonder if the private consortium funding the Rams are scratching their heads at these developments.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The stumbling block for reorganisation or rationalisation of the NSW NRC teams is that of the now 3 surviving teams, only 1 is owned by a traditionally ARU affiliated Rugby entity(ies).

The licence for the North Harbour Rays is owned by a joint venture between 4 Shute Shield Clubs.

The licence for NSW Country Eagles is held by a couple of rugby buffs from regional NSW, and IIRC the NSW Country RU made some efforts to disassociate themselves from the Eagles.

The licence for the Greater Sydney Rams was originally owned in a Shute Shield Club JV, but when Eastwood declined to join in financially things started to go a little southward, and shortly afterwards a group of private investors formed a Consortium to formally take over ownership of that particular licence.

This mixed ownership model makes it a little tricky to simply align NSW Premier Clubs with the the surviving NRC entities.

We even saw some players jump across club lines for the NRC. Jones from Warringah Rats ended up with the Stars instead of the Rays which his club was a JV Partner in. Also Hill (IIRC) from Eastwood was recruited to the NH Rays instead of playing with the Rams, which the Woodies were more or less aligned with. There was a lock who's name escapes me ATM from the Hobbits that ended up with the Stars, as well as the Woodies back up hooker after Chibba Hanson headed off to the RWC.

 

[TOCC]

I have heard Sydney Uni have taken a controlling stake in NSW Country for 2016.


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[Jagman]

My 2 cents' worth:

• The collapse/euthanation of the Stars SHOULD lead to some sensible re-organisation of the survivors.

I can't see this happening. I mentioned last year that if NSW were to go down to 3 teams, merging last years Rams and Rays would have meant a new team with a total of 4 professional players; Roach, Holloway, Asquith and Dempsey.

If Eastwood stick with the Rams, Roach might remain with them. If Naiyaravoro is not selected for Wallabies Rams might have 2 local pros.

Rays will have; Holloway, Lucas and Dempsey.

For the Eagles, any given player from the lists below could find themselves playing them via either Syd Uni, Randwick, Easts or Country affiliation:

1st XV
Paddy Ryan
Tolu Latu
Tom Robertson
Sam Carter
Matt Philip
Ned Hanigan
Beau Robinson
Brad Wilkin
Jake Gordon
Angus Roberts
Matt Cararo
David Horwitz
Jim Stewart
Henry Clunies-Ross
Andrew Kellaway
2nd XV
Jeremy Tilse
Ryan Dalziel
Matt Sandell
Ryan McCauley
Liam Winton
Ben Matwijow
Pat McCutcheon
Sam Figg
Jock Merriman
Andrew Deegan
Charlie Clifton
Tom Carter
Ed Stubbs
Jarome McKenzie
Tom Kingston
Last year's dominant NSW U20s (just to show where all the future talent will be funnelled)
Francis Brown
Folau Fainga'a
Vunipola Fifita
Harrison Williams
Nic Kellaway
Sam Croke
Jack McCalman
Olly Kamp
Mitch Short
Connor O'Shea (2014 Aus schools fly half)
Henry Hutchison
Ben Starkey
Jack Redden
Christian Yassmin
Alex Newsome
However it turns out the Eagles are going to have a very good team this year.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

1 ultra strong NSW franchise and 2 NSW franchises filled with premier club stalwarts.

I guess this may encourage some of @Jagman's Eagles 2nd XV players to try and get a gig with Rays or Rams, or they won't get the development exposure that NRC is supposed to deliver.

This rather brutal tactic could be a means to try and force talented players to move from Randwick, Uni, and Easts to premier clubs located in Sydney's West or North to try to even out the Shute Shield competition.

Good luck with that because Uni, Wicks and Easts are middle of the table clubs in Shute Shield without their Pro players, and they will fight like hell to keep their talented developing players.

 

[Caputo]

While the NSW NRC teams seem to be dithering the Brumbies/Vikings seem to be on a full season cycle.

Currently the Under 20s are being played and at least three players have been pegged for significant roles with EPS or development contracts. Jooste, Lomax and Jackson-Hope. Reckon you could throw in Paragali and Douch to this list.

Brumby Runners had a trial against Sydney University today. 4 non Brumby's in the 15 and 7 of 8 in Reserves.

Non Brumby's are 6 OJ Noa, 7 Dean Oakman-Hunt, 12 Rakic 13 Sinoti (NSW Cockatoos)
16 Hublutzel, 17 Nadruku, 18 Dobson, 19 Wilson, 21 Burey, 22 Lorraway and 23 Robinson (back from Sydney Stars)

All except Sinoti and Lorraway were in JID train on for Canberra Vikings in May 15

 

[Caputo]

I know hope is not a plan but with the NSW NRC franchises.

I hope that the three head coaches are not current Shute Shield head coaches.

Even if NSWRU do'nt take a lead I hope for them to invest intellectually for their benefit.
I would keep Jim Williams and hope for say a Phil Waugh and Cam Blades.

See if there could be three coaching mentors in MacQueen, Dwyer and McKenzie.

I would like NSW to invest or recommend 3 S&C and have three training bases during the Shute Shield so the players can hit the ground running

 

[Brumby Runner]

Few games in the Super comp this year have had 1 point leads nearing the end, or even finished with only a 1 point margin. The excitement towards the end is enhanced by the knowledge that a penalty kick or field goal can reverse the lead, so the result is very much still up in the air.

This type of finish is just not possible with the scoring regime in the NRC. All scores are even numbers, so a 1 point margin cannot be attained. And with penalties and field goals worth two points only, a turnaround is also not possible with just one kicking attempt towards the end of the game. This is the aspect I least like about the NRC.

Surely, we would have more thrilling finishes and results if tries were worth 5 points only. Would reinstate to conditions at least in some games (those that are close affairs) for see-sawing scores at the end.

That is the change I'd like to see in future NRC comps.

 

[Highlander35]

BR, tries are worth 5, conversions 3 and PGs/DGs 2.

With no-one going for any of the latter in the vast majority of games, the 1 point margin is simply harder to achieve.

The only way I can currently think of is that if one side has at least 3 tries, of which 3 are unconverted, and the other side has one fewer try, but 2 more conversions.

Whereas the multiples of 5, 3 and 7 far more regularly create 1 point gaps, or the nearly equally exciting 2 point gap, as a single kick can still win the match.