Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
This sounds similar to club championship product they had proposed as part of broadcast package.
How would you like to see NRC/ARC type comp?
- Thread starter Dan54
- Start date
This sounds similar to club championship product they had proposed as part of broadcast package.
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
It's certainly a hybrid at the very least. Mixing club and 'rep' model. Which may be the best model going forward in which to get as many groups on board.
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
Yes I am more open to what the model might look like to get all groups on board. Key is getting super rugby players not involved in wallaby duties involved. Which could be via allocating to respective clubs ie mixed club and rep model.
RebelYell
Arch Winning (36)
I think what I like about it is that the Club teams get there on merit - and it's something else to be aspirational about.
The Barbarians concept means you don't have to necessartily worry too much about creating a whole club and trying to attract members, fans etc, which failed so miserably during the NRC
The Barbarians concept means you don't have to necessartily worry too much about creating a whole club and trying to attract members, fans etc, which failed so miserably during the NRC
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
What I also like about it is that it still provides pathways for players from outside of those clubs while also creating a derby situation in each of the bases. Would be interesting to see say the Vikings vs Kookaburras derby in Canberra.
KOB1987
John Eales (66)
I like the concept, but we need a pro comp. A lot of the Shute players for example have jobs. What we need is something that keeps more of our professional rugby players in the system. However, it could be a starting point to build something from. This concept would need to be done in conjunction with a move of the Shute to semi pro, which is entirely possible.
Bandar
Bob Loudon (25)
I think the easiest and way forward to to play Super AU at the conclusion of the Pacific comp. Test players are taken out and if we can get the Drua included there is a window for a full home and away comp.
You will have 3 matches each weekend for TV, Friday, Saturday & Sunday with the times dependant on where tests are being played, come finals the NRL & AFL would be done so more free eyeballs to watch and when there are Wallaby injuries, the replacement players are playing high level competition.
The down side is the impact it will have on Sydney & Brisbane clubs rugby.
You will have 3 matches each weekend for TV, Friday, Saturday & Sunday with the times dependant on where tests are being played, come finals the NRL & AFL would be done so more free eyeballs to watch and when there are Wallaby injuries, the replacement players are playing high level competition.
The down side is the impact it will have on Sydney & Brisbane clubs rugby.
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Like that as best option of all!
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
As I've said elsewhere: "Premier" rugby needs to understand its place in the bigger picture. The QRU fully backed the NRC with their 2 teams in the structure that put the player and coach development first. So they've already made the leap.
NSWRU - more to the point SRU - need to fall in line in some fashion. Can't go on pretending it is grassroots and professional pathway. Just doesn't work.
Joe King
Dave Cowper (27)
6 teams (with fiji) home and away and a final = 11 weeks. I think that could even fit after club rugby from mid-August to October.
If tests players need a game between tests or before November tour or coming back from injury, they could easily slot into their team.
I think it makes the most sense in the near future because it could be implemented immediately with the least amount of resistance.
Would also be good for the cohesion of the Super Rugby teams leading into the following season. I think they'll need it.
The torpedo
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Sneaky bump but I kinda want to have every state & territory represented - maybe have the other 3 partner with the main state?
Say:
QLD - Brisbane City & Queensland Country
NSW - Sydney City & NSW Country
ACT - Canberra Vikings/Kookaburras & NT Mozzies
VIC - Melbourne Rising & Tassie Jack Jumpers
WA - Perth Spirit & SA Black Falcons
so 10 teams and then maybe even add in a couple of pacific island teams?
But yeah that concept sounds really good
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Thanks for starting this thread Dan, it's the next big issue for Australian rugby.
Firstly as you imply, it's essential that we don't repeat the mistakes of ARC/NRC incarnations both of which tried to put start-up entities into Sydney and Brisbane and thus broke the important link to the level below. It also meant that the competitions couldn't capitalise on the one thing that can't be bought in a sporting context - the tribalism and support which comes from long-standing clubs and long-standing rivalries.
It's also clear in the Australian context that any code wanting a pro or semi-pro competition needs a significant presence in either Sydney or Melbourne (or both). The AFL and the NFL both realised this with expansion into the other's home turf. Just as important is that AFL and NRL have both also realised that even with expansion, it's fatal to neglect your heartland. Another experience from AFL and NRL is that teenagers who have aspirations of a professional career still have a desire to remain in their home state. Quite a few of the AFL top draft picks from Melbourne end up interstate and they nearly all try to get back to Melbourne when that first contract is over. Same with AFL guys from Perth drafted to the East Coast, they want to play in their home town. At the moment Sydney produces a significant percentage of rugby players but there's only one professional rugby team in a city of almost 4 million people - so a proportion of kids who are good at both league and union have a pathway of 9 NRL clubs or 1 Super Rugby franchise. Rugby is almost pushing these kids to league. (Angus Crichton as just one example)
It's also instructive to look back and see what England and France did when professional rugby arrived in 1996 and look at the path we took as a way of identifying what might work moving forward in Australia. It's also beneficial to look at England and France for two other reasons - firstly rugby isn't the dominant winter sport in either country, and secondly rugby isn't evenly spread in either country but has a heartland in parts of each nation where more teams are located than bare population numbers would suggest.
In both cases, previously amateur clubs were given the opportunity to professionalise their operations and become elite professional set-ups. There was no move to create new entities devoid of history or emotional connections with a local fan base. Some clubs took up the professional challenge and have progressed in the 25 years on professional rugby, while others chose to remain amateur or semi-pro in lower divisions. Many of these clubs draw from a population of fewer people than some Sydney and Brisbane clubs (see below). There's also a geographical bias towards the rugby heartland areas so that the areas which produce more rugby players and have more rugby fans have more teams.
English Premiership Rugby (12 clubs)
South West England (4 clubs)
Bristol (pop 467,000)
Bath (pop 88,000)
Gloucester (pop 129,000)
Exeter (pop 131,000)
Midlands (4 clubs)
Northampton (pop 215,000)
Worcester (pop 101,000)
Leicester (pop 357,000)
Wasps (Coventry - pop 325,000)
North East (1 club)
Newcastle (pop 302,000)
North West (1 club)
Sale (pop 55,000)
London (2 clubs)
Saracens
London Irish
French Top 14 (14 clubs)
South West (7 clubs)
La Rochelle (pop 75,000)
Perpignan (pop 121,000)
Toulouse (pop 471,000)
Brive (pop 46,000)
Pau (pop 76,000)
Biarritz (pop 24,500)
Bordeaux-Begles (pop 257,000)
South and South East (4 clubs)
Lyon (pop 518,000)
Montpellier (pop 240,000)
Castres (pop 41,700)
Toulon (pop 176,500)
Paris (2 clubs)
Stade Francais
Racing 92
Central (1 club)
Clermont-Ferrand (pop 141,000)
On occasion Grenoble (from the east of the country in the Alps - pop 158,000) are also in the competition under the French promotion/relegation system)
So in taking an approach where any national rugby competition takes advantage of historical clubs and the associated would be my strong preference and I'd suggest it's the only option with a realistic chance of success. This should be coupled with a concentration in the heartland of the game where there are the most fans and players.
Any competition should have 10 -12 teams - and I assume that it would be uncontroversial to have a Melbourne team and a Perth team in the expansion states (to occupy similar roles to Melbourne Storm RL and Brisbane Lions AFL).
Then there becomes a whole range of different permeations which could work depending on who would want to participate and under what terms.
At this point I would note that Eastwood have recently sold their ground at Eastwood in the Ryde part of their area and are going to build an elite playing and training complex at Dural in the growing hills district of their area. They may be now the richest rugby club in Australia and well set up to play in a national competition should they want to do so. Combined population of Hills Shire and Ryde is 230,000.
Sydney University have significant resources and the ability to run an elite rugby programme on campus. I think they would have the resources if they wanted to go there. (They could even link up with Norths and Gordon as the Sydney Waratahs - the Waratahs name would give every other team in the competition a place to focus irrational hatred -this part is tongue in cheek
)Randwick have always harboured desires to participate as Randwick in a national competition. I don't know if they still do, but I suspect that the baton is still in the knapsack) Population of Randwick City LGA is 156,000, when combined with parts of their area in other LGAs it's over 220,000).
The Manly-Warringah area (Northern Beaches LGA population 275,000) competes as one combined team in every sport except rugby. It has in the past always been their view that they should play as Manly-Warringah in any national competition. This also has important brand recognition through the MW Sea Eagles on a national level and would unite the whole area.
Parramatta/Western Sydney can't be left out. Cumberland Council have just built them a great facility and West Harbour are part of a high performance hub at Concord Oval. The area has a huge population Parramatta, Cumberland and Penrith LGAs have over 750,000 people (before you even get to Blacktown, Liverpool etc which takes the population to almost 2 million), and there are plenty of rugby people. Would need NSWRU or RA support.
In Canberra, I quite like the idea of a Tuggeranong Vikings and a combined Canberra Brumbies as it brings a Canberra derby but I would bow to greater local knowledge on this. At face value it seems something which should at least be examined seriously.
For a 12 team competition, this leaves 3 teams to go in Queensland. Not wanting to offend anyone in Queensland by presuming to say what I think would work best, I'll leave it by saying that it's logical for a 12 team competition to have 3 in Queensland. The truth is I simply don't have the local knowledge of Brisbane rugby to say what would work best.
In terms of when such a competition should run, my very strong view is that it should run parallel to Shute Shield, Brisbane PR etc. Obviously as we still have Super Rugby, then this competition would be semi-pro - which probably isn't a bad way to start.
Just my views or course, but that's what the site is for and I expect criticism - but if you're not being criticised then you probably aren't doing anything worthwhile.
I'm just going out to put my crash helmet on for the incoming.
KOB1987
John Eales (66)
I won’t quote it QH but that’s a very informative post. I had no idea about the origins of the EPR in particular and a similar approach could be a good way to get things going here. I.e. ask for a show of hands as to who wants to go pro. Whatever route is chosen it needs both a fan base and the support of the participants (by that I mean not operating under duress). If Randwick for example chose to enter a team, they will be recruiting within whatever limits are set, so there’s no reason they still couldn’t participate in SS, maybe some rebranding would be necessary? I don’t know the answer but it’s an interesting proposition nonetheless.
Monty
Frank Nicholson (4)
I’m a big supporter of the NRC and think it needs to come back in some way. I’m not against SS and QPR clubs playing in a national comp if it means they no longer play in their current club comps, and so the national club comp effectively becomes the NRC as QH talks to.
I don’t know enough about the SS and QPR clubs to know if some would be willing to forgo their historical rivalries to make the step up.
But Australian rugby needs an NRC type competition of ~8 semi-pro clubs playing consistently. I don’t mind which ones they are as long as they’re there.
I don’t know enough about the SS and QPR clubs to know if some would be willing to forgo their historical rivalries to make the step up.
But Australian rugby needs an NRC type competition of ~8 semi-pro clubs playing consistently. I don’t mind which ones they are as long as they’re there.
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
Yep there is no doubt at all we need a nrc and longer we don’t have one that other leading rugby nations like nZ and sa have we put ourselves have an advantage. As to what it looks like I am flexible too and the only must have criteria is it works and garners broader fan and stakeholder support for.
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
I really like this idea QH, well thought out. Now as it a forum as you say, I admit to being keen on a few ideas that have been thrown up, I love the idea of recognised teams etc to get the tribalism. As I have said I am a huge fan of NPC (and Hearland) rugby comp here in NZ, as I can relate to teams so easily and traditional rivalries come into play often (ie battle of the Bays etc). In Aus I can see the idea of clubs that want to take step up working well, as someone who lived in Brisbane for 20odd years, I could see someone like Bond Uni , Qld Uni, and say a club like Sunnybank having financial recourses, I not saying this is firm as I think Wests or someone may have the ability financially. Now if I was still in Brisbane, I know I could follow one club in local comp, but then would have no probs becoming a Wests etc supporter for a pro comp. The thing being it would give me an established identity to follow. As I said like your idea a lot!!Thanks for starting this thread Dan, it's the next big issue for Australian rugby.
Firstly as you imply, it's essential that we don't repeat the mistakes of ARC/NRC incarnations both of which tried to put start-up entities into Sydney and Brisbane and thus broke the important link to the level below. It also meant that the competitions couldn't capitalise on the one thing that can't be bought in a sporting context - the tribalism and support which comes from long-standing clubs and long-standing rivalries.
It's also clear in the Australian context that any code wanting a pro or semi-pro competition needs a significant presence in either Sydney or Melbourne (or both). The AFL and the NFL both realised this with expansion into the other's home turf. Just as important is that AFL and NRL have both also realised that even with expansion, it's fatal to neglect your heartland. Another experience from AFL and NRL is that teenagers who have aspirations of a professional career still have a desire to remain in their home state. Quite a few of the AFL top draft picks from Melbourne end up interstate and they nearly all try to get back to Melbourne when that first contract is over. Same with AFL guys from Perth drafted to the East Coast, they want to play in their home town. At the moment Sydney produces a significant percentage of rugby players but there's only one professional rugby team in a city of almost 4 million people - so a proportion of kids who are good at both league and union have a pathway of 9 NRL clubs or 1 Super Rugby franchise. Rugby is almost pushing these kids to league. (Angus Crichton as just one example)
It's also instructive to look back and see what England and France did when professional rugby arrived in 1996 and look at the path we took as a way of identifying what might work moving forward in Australia. It's also beneficial to look at England and France for two other reasons - firstly rugby isn't the dominant winter sport in either country, and secondly rugby isn't evenly spread in either country but has a heartland in parts of each nation where more teams are located than bare population numbers would suggest.
In both cases, previously amateur clubs were given the opportunity to professionalise their operations and become elite professional set-ups. There was no move to create new entities devoid of history or emotional connections with a local fan base. Some clubs took up the professional challenge and have progressed in the 25 years on professional rugby, while others chose to remain amateur or semi-pro in lower divisions. Many of these clubs draw from a population of fewer people than some Sydney and Brisbane clubs (see below). There's also a geographical bias towards the rugby heartland areas so that the areas which produce more rugby players and have more rugby fans have more teams.
English Premiership Rugby (12 clubs)
South West England (4 clubs)
Bristol (pop 467,000)
Bath (pop 88,000)
Gloucester (pop 129,000)
Exeter (pop 131,000)
Midlands (4 clubs)
Northampton (pop 215,000)
Worcester (pop 101,000)
Leicester (pop 357,000)
Wasps (Coventry - pop 325,000)
North East (1 club)
Newcastle (pop 302,000)
North West (1 club)
Sale (pop 55,000)
London (2 clubs)
Saracens
London Irish
French Top 14 (14 clubs)
South West (7 clubs)
La Rochelle (pop 75,000)
Perpignan (pop 121,000)
Toulouse (pop 471,000)
Brive (pop 46,000)
Pau (pop 76,000)
Biarritz (pop 24,500)
Bordeaux-Begles (pop 257,000)
South and South East (4 clubs)
Lyon (pop 518,000)
Montpellier (pop 240,000)
Castres (pop 41,700)
Toulon (pop 176,500)
Paris (2 clubs)
Stade Francais
Racing 92
Central (1 club)
Clermont-Ferrand (pop 141,000)
On occasion Grenoble (from the east of the country in the Alps - pop 158,000) are also in the competition under the French promotion/relegation system)
So in taking an approach where any national rugby competition takes advantage of historical clubs and the associated would be my strong preference and I'd suggest it's the only option with a realistic chance of success. This should be coupled with a concentration in the heartland of the game where there are the most fans and players.
Any competition should have 10 -12 teams - and I assume that it would be uncontroversial to have a Melbourne team and a Perth team in the expansion states (to occupy similar roles to Melbourne Storm RL and Brisbane Lions AFL).
Then there becomes a whole range of different permeations which could work depending on who would want to participate and under what terms.
At this point I would note that Eastwood have recently sold their ground at Eastwood in the Ryde part of their area and are going to build an elite playing and training complex at Dural in the growing hills district of their area. They may be now the richest rugby club in Australia and well set up to play in a national competition should they want to do so. Combined population of Hills Shire and Ryde is 230,000.
Sydney University have significant resources and the ability to run an elite rugby programme on campus. I think they would have the resources if they wanted to go there. (They could even link up with Norths and Gordon as the Sydney Waratahs - the Waratahs name would give every other team in the competition a place to focus irrational hatred -this part is tongue in cheek
Randwick have always harboured desires to participate as Randwick in a national competition. I don't know if they still do, but I suspect that the baton is still in the knapsack) Population of Randwick City LGA is 156,000, when combined with parts of their area in other LGAs it's over 220,000).
The Manly-Warringah area (Northern Beaches LGA population 275,000) competes as one combined team in every sport except rugby. It has in the past always been their view that they should play as Manly-Warringah in any national competition. This also has important brand recognition through the MW Sea Eagles on a national level and would unite the whole area.
Parramatta/Western Sydney can't be left out. Cumberland Council have just built them a great facility and West Harbour are part of a high performance hub at Concord Oval. The area has a huge population Parramatta, Cumberland and Penrith LGAs have over 750,000 people (before you even get to Blacktown, Liverpool etc which takes the population to almost 2 million), and there are plenty of rugby people. Would need NSWRU or RA support.
In Canberra, I quite like the idea of a Tuggeranong Vikings and a combined Canberra Brumbies as it brings a Canberra derby but I would bow to greater local knowledge on this. At face value it seems something which should at least be examined seriously.
For a 12 team competition, this leaves 3 teams to go in Queensland. Not wanting to offend anyone in Queensland by presuming to say what I think would work best, I'll leave it by saying that it's logical for a 12 team competition to have 3 in Queensland. The truth is I simply don't have the local knowledge of Brisbane rugby to say what would work best.
In terms of when such a competition should run, my very strong view is that it should run parallel to Shute Shield, Brisbane PR etc. Obviously as we still have Super Rugby, then this competition would be semi-pro - which probably isn't a bad way to start.
Just my views or course, but that's what the site is for and I expect criticism - but if you're not being criticised then you probably aren't doing anything worthwhile.
I'm just going out to put my crash helmet on for the incoming.
I do believe for all any discussion we have on here, you are right, it's the next big issue and by far the best thing I personally think RA needs to work on.
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Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
Interestingly RA proposed national club competition as part of broadcast deal but not the incumbent nrc competition. Suggests perhaps RAs thinking aligned to quick hands. I don’t know what the exact answer is for a successful third tier and not sure RA are exactly sure what the answer is. Hence better to start small, trial, learn, adjust and then build and expand. My only concern is nothing on the horizon for 2022 and at this rate 2023.
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Would love to hear something from RA that they are even got plans under way, even if it is with the caveat that finances can be found.
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
+ 1