How would you like to see NRC/ARC type comp?

[Dan54]

I go along with RN and believe that Aus really needs a NRC type comp again to fill gap between clubs and Super. I always believes ARC etc were good ideas but missed the mark, well in Qld anyway, because it was hard to identify with teams. Qld had city and country teams, but I always felt they were done wrong. I will give one example that made it hard, Sef Fa'agase who played for UQ was in country team because he played a few years at Beaudesert club as a kid, because that age grade played n Saturday and for religeous reasons Sef didn't play Sunday. So it made it hard to follow reasoning of teams etc. For Qld most of us felt it should of been club based, say clubs on one side of river fed say South Qld and those on other side North Qld . That would of been Bond, Sunnybank, Easts and Souths and other side UQ, Wests,Brothers, Gps and Norths. Something along that idea , instead of trying to find ways of having reasonably even teams, bring in tribalism so that you has a reason to go and support your team. I don't know how things would be in Sydney as I don't follow Shute or even know the layout of city! Now I must admit my thoughts are probably coloured by years of provincial rugby in NZ where you just supported your area team that was made up of club teams from within your province, so kind os enemies club season then all in together and fight the rest of the buggers!
Really intersted to hear thoughts, as really Super is all worked out whether we like it or not, and I believe that rugby fans in Aus should still have a comp going on while test season is on. Or should it just be Super teams without Test players and filled up with 30-40 young players?

 

[Wilson]

For Qld most of us felt it should of been club based, say clubs on one side of river fed say South Qld and those on other side North Qld . That would of been Bond, Sunnybank, Easts and Souths and other side UQ, Wests,Brothers, Gps and Norths.

You might have believed that, but I can't see how you can say most did. I thought the breakdown was good and the talent distribution being organised by the Reds suited the competition and it's player development aims. The country side was a good initiative and is part of an ongoing effort by the Reds/QRU to engage the regions. You also have to understand that country rugby in QLD is pretty much everything outside of Brisbane so some of the connections will seem tenuous but are there. Others were clearly parachuted in, but that was a much better option then the team being hamstrung. For what it's worth Sef also grew up in Logan as well as playing his junior rugby in Beaudesert. I can't really see why you'd hold him up as an example of someone who doesn't fit country, just because he played for UQ (and wests as well if I'm not mistaken) - the majority of top class country players in QLD with professional ambitions end up in QPR over time, that doesn't erase their past.

It's pretty clear that everyone wants some sort of NRC back up and running, but there's a lot questions to be answered, chief amongst them being how do you pay for it?

 

[KOB1987]

I don’t know enough about Qld to comment on that situation, but for NSW longer term I’d like to see the Tahs morph into the Sydney Waratahs, a Western Sydney side, and a third side which has an emphasis on players with country roots but with a home base, probably somewhere like Newcastle, or even Coffs Harbour which has an international airport. Some might argue that a Northern Sydney team is more viable than a WS one, which is fine as long as the west are incorporated into the plans of one of the teams.

Wilson, to answer your last question re finance, hopefully this is part of the PE discussions, but I also think that supporters and sponsors can be part owners of the franchises too.

 

[Dan54]

You might have believed that, but I can't see how you can say most did. I thought the breakdown was good and the talent distribution being organised by the Reds suited the competition and it's player development aims. The country side was a good initiative and is part of an ongoing effort by the Reds/QRU to engage the regions. You also have to understand that country rugby in QLD is pretty much everything outside of Brisbane so some of the connections will seem tenuous but are there. Others were clearly parachuted in, but that was a much better option then the team being hamstrung. For what it's worth Sef also grew up in Logan as well as playing his junior rugby in Beaudesert. I can't really see why you'd hold him up as an example of someone who doesn't fit country, just because he played for UQ (andclub rugby being transferred to ARC would of helped it gain more traction. wests as well if I'm not mistaken) - the majority of top class country players in QLD with professional ambitions end up in QPR over time, that doesn't erase their past.

It's pretty clear that everyone wants some sort of NRC back up and running, but there's a lot questions to be answered, chief amongst them being how do you pay for it?

Mate, I didn't just take what I thought, as even after 20 years I considered myself a newbie. It was what mates who were long time rugby stalwarts in area were saying, they struggled to get a connection with any team, and that were their words. I still went to games regardless, but was only really me and Welsh mate that followed it. Funnily enough of any of those mayes that went , only one said he felt he had a team, and he was fijian by birth, and identified with the Drua. I know about Sef being a Logan boy, that was my club, and that's why it seemed strange he was playing for country team because he played as a kid in a country comp. I know he didn't really feel an affiliation to country. I really thought the tribalism of club rugby would of been good way for people to really get behind teams.
As for how do you pay for comp, I guessing that is the question behind any domestic comp as it would need to be semi pro. Just it seems a waste to me that there is not some kind of comp happening at moment.

 

[Jimmy_Crouch]

I don’t know enough about Qld to comment on that situation, but for NSW longer term I’d like to see the Tahs morph into the Sydney Waratahs, a Western Sydney side, and a third side which has an emphasis on players with country roots but with a home base, probably somewhere like Newcastle, or even Coffs Harbour which has an international airport. Some might argue that a Northern Sydney team is more viable than a WS one, which is fine as long as the west are incorporated into the plans of one of the teams.

Wilson, to answer your last question re finance, hopefully this is part of the PE discussions, but I also think that supporters and sponsors can be part owners of the franchises too.

Coffs population is about 70k, Newcastle is at about 300k as much as we all love the idea of "country" teams it just isn't financially feasible. For these competitions you are essentially relocating people for the entire period of the competition. Don't get me wrong one off games can work in these centres but not teams based there.

My idea would be for NSWRU/SRU/NSWCRU to align each country region with a Shute Shield club. Forge ties so that good young country kids that want to move to Sydney already have a path and a support structure. I doesn't have to be a firm rule but just work to develop closer ties. Helping people get jobs etc. Maybe once a year a game can be played in that region.

Each Shute Shield team should be aligned to an NRC team (geographically). NRC teams can only be selected from those clubs forcing players at Shute Shield level to potentially shift clubs to get selected in NRC. This would help re-align talent in the Shute Shield.

I'd also have a bye in Super Rugby once a year and call it back to club day where all the the Super Rugby players play a round of Shute Shield. The draw must alternate each year so teams who played away then get to play at home the next year.

 

[KOB1987]

Coffs population is about 70k, Newcastle is at about 300k as much as we all love the idea of "country" teams it just isn't financially feasible. For these competitions you are essentially relocating people for the entire period of the competition. Don't get me wrong one off games can work in these centres but not teams based there.

My idea would be for NSWRU/SRU/NSWCRU to align each country region with a Shute Shield club. Forge ties so that good young country kids that want to move to Sydney already have a path and a support structure. I doesn't have to be a firm rule but just work to develop closer ties. Helping people get jobs etc. Maybe once a year a game can be played in that region.

Each Shute Shield team should be aligned to an NRC team (geographically). NRC teams can only be selected from those clubs forcing players at Shute Shield level to potentially shift clubs to get selected in NRC. This would help re-align talent in the Shute Shield.

I'd also have a bye in Super Rugby once a year and call it back to club day where all the the Super Rugby players play a round of Shute Shield. The draw must alternate each year so teams who played away then get to play at home the next year.

I like all that.

 

[Dan54]

Me too KOB, lot of good thoughts in that!

 

[liquor box]

I would have each Super Rugby team own 2 franchises each that they have entire control over.

These 2 teams would be made up of the Super Rugby squad split in two and the rest made up of club players from their own territory.

A draft would be held where each of the 10 franchises can top up their squad with club rugby players from the rest of the country if they don't have enough home talent. All Club Rugby players who are not signed in the initial signings by their home state can nominate for the draft and then get selected.

It could be that QLD, NSW and ACT fill their two teams with home players and Vic and WA use the draft to fill their squads.

The structure of the competition would be 2 double headers per weekend on Saturday and Sunday with both teams from one state travelling to another state to play both their teams for the double headers.

Friday night would be a single game of both of one states teams playing each other.

It would be a home and away season.

At the conclusion of the season the "best of the rest" non test players would go on a spring tour and play tier 2 nations for experience and an "A" side.

In time I would love to see an under 20's team from each state travel and make it a triple header each Saturday and Sunday.


I would prefer the games to be a spectacle with food trucks, craft breweries etc making it a special day out, who knows, with a double header maybe Rugby could steal the younger party crowd from the Races and make it a great day out dressed in good clothes and plenty of drinking.

 

[Dan54]

I would have each Super Rugby team own 2 franchises each that they have entire control over.

These 2 teams would be made up of the Super Rugby squad split in two and the rest made up of club players from their own territory.

A draft would be held where each of the 10 franchises can top up their squad with club rugby players from the rest of the country if they don't have enough home talent. All Club Rugby players who are not signed in the initial signings by their home state can nominate for the draft and then get selected.

It could be that QLD, NSW and ACT fill their two teams with home players and Vic and WA use the draft to fill their squads.

The structure of the competition would be 2 double headers per weekend on Saturday and Sunday with both teams from one state travelling to another state to play both their teams for the double headers.

Friday night would be a single game of both of one states teams playing each other.

It would be a home and away season.

At the conclusion of the season the "best of the rest" non test players would go on a spring tour and play tier 2 nations for experience and an "A" side.

In time I would love to see an under 20's team from each state travel and make it a triple header each Saturday and Sunday.


I would prefer the games to be a spectacle with food trucks, craft breweries etc making it a special day out, who knows, with a double header maybe Rugby could steal the younger party crowd from the Races and make it a great day out dressed in good clothes and plenty of drinking.

Geez lb, that sounds good. I like the way you trying to bring in a festival type thing to it. I like the concept of trying to make games a bit of a party type thing, as you say if a few came along for the fun and not just the rugby, you might just find they will start getting into game.

I know when I started this thread one or 2 just said how it going to be paid for. Sometimes it bloody good (in my opinion) to hear people's ideas of how they would like to see a comp, and ok then worry about how it would actually get up and going after.

 

[liquor box]

Geez lb, that sounds good. I like the way you trying to bring in a festival type thing to it. I like the concept of trying to make games a bit of a party type thing, as you say if a few came along for the fun and not just the rugby, you might just find they will start getting into game.

I know when I started this thread one or 2 just said how it going to be paid for. Sometimes it bloody good (in my opinion) to hear people's ideas of how they would like to see a comp, and ok then worry about how it would actually get up and going after.

If you can work out ways to get a crowd to the games then money will follow.

Suburban grounds with a "spare oval" next door are ideal for events, if people just want to turn up for the event and are not rugby fans then they stay on the other oval drinking/eating/socialising while the game plays and Rugby gets their money.

I have been to Race meetings with thousands of people partying and most did not even watch a race let alone place any bets. They went for the party.

 

[Wilson]

Geez lb, that sounds good. I like the way you trying to bring in a festival type thing to it. I like the concept of trying to make games a bit of a party type thing, as you say if a few came along for the fun and not just the rugby, you might just find they will start getting into game.

I know when I started this thread one or 2 just said how it going to be paid for. Sometimes it bloody good (in my opinion) to hear people's ideas of how they would like to see a comp, and ok then worry about how it would actually get up and going after.

Funding is absolutely key to the structure though. The reality is with little money available we need to get whatever we do right and money that potentially exists for one competition does not exist for another. Any NRC that gets up needs to have a singular purpose and decisions need to be made with that in front of mind.

That could be a comp focussed on player development and retention like the original NRC. In that case considerations around product, profitability, marketing potential and keeping existing clubs happy (where the NRC went significantly wrong) need to be put aside with all decisions geared to that end goal. That's not to say it won't increase broadcast revenue or improve fan engagement, it just means that you can't sacrifice the development goals to do that. This in the grand scheme of things is relatively cheap - as I understand it the NRC ran off a few million a year at break even, the aim would be that initially with growth to something fully professional over time to help retain and develop talent. The only way you get private equity backing on this is if their invested in RA as a whole and you sell them on the benefit to the higher levels - a competition like this should never be geared to be profitable - if you're making money directly from it than you should just be pumping that back into development of players, coaches and referees. There's also huge internal political hurdles to overcome, though the situation in NSW has maybe improved things since the last NRC.

Alternatively you try and build something that is going to be a product in it's own right, a full domestic comp with fan engagement and marketing potential at the forefront - open selection to player from anywhere in the world, get PE backing in behind the teams to front the money for the stars an push it to the front. You're going to get player development to some level for this, but it's not a structure designed to build into the super sides (or even the wallabies) so it won't prepare Australian players for that step up to the same degree as the development focused comp. By it's very nature it also threatens the on going existence of super rugby, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, just a decision that needs to be made up front. The cost on this is much higher but there is much greater potential for individual investment in teams or this specific competition as there is room for those investors to make money directly out of it.

It's all well and good to talk about what a competition could look like and throw up ideas, but trying to build some Frankenstein competition from a bunch of different thought bubbles you like the sound of is a terrible way of actually going about it. If there isn't a clarity and consistency of purpose the competition won't even be a failure, it just won't even happen in the current climate. That has to start with a question of what resources are available to us and where we go from there.

 

[Dan54]

I not suggeting it will be easy Wilson, by any means,very little worthwhie is, but I think it will still in the long rub be easier than bot having a pathway to higher rugby. As I see it the positive of it is not only pathways etc, more content for tv, a place for Wallaby players etc to play after injuries etc. I know I kind of looking at NPC in NZ, that doesn't make money either that I am aware, but is seen as a pathway for players etc. I will give an example , everyone is a fairly excited about a schoolboy 10 in Auckland at moment (he looks very good), Highlanders have got him under contract from mext season, but saying they not even considering him for Super for a couple of years and will let him earn his stripes for Otago in NPC. I really loke liquor box idea of trying to incorparate games with markets etc, you know get people to area to have a beer or something to eat, with rugby going on at same time. You couldn't do it every game, but would certainly help to get people there.

 

[liquor box]

I not suggeting it will be easy Wilson, by any means,very little worthwhie is, but I think it will still in the long rub be easier than bot having a pathway to higher rugby. As I see it the positive of it is not only pathways etc, more content for tv, a place for Wallaby players etc to play after injuries etc. I know I kind of looking at NPC in NZ, that doesn't make money either that I am aware, but is seen as a pathway for players etc. I will give an example , everyone is a fairly excited about a schoolboy 10 in Auckland at moment (he looks very good), Highlanders have got him under contract from mext season, but saying they not even considering him for Super for a couple of years and will let him earn his stripes for Otago in NPC. I really loke liquor box idea of trying to incorparate games with markets etc, you know get people to area to have a beer or something to eat, with rugby going on at same time. You couldn't do it every game, but would certainly help to get people there.

You could do it every game, if you move the games around to other areas.

Being QLD based I would imagine if you had 4 home game weekends (using my double header format mentioned earlier) then have a festival of Rugby at Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, Ballymore and even try a country area like Cairns, Townsville or Toowoomba.

 

[RebelYell]

How about something like this immediately after end of Club season:

Top 2 Shute Shield & 1 x NSW Barbarians feat. top players from other Shute Shield clubs and unaffiliated Tahs.
Same in Brisbane.
Melbourne, Canberra, Perth all do the same, but only the Premier team and the rest are barbarians. Players from other states/regional comps eligible for any Barbarian team.

12 teams. Two pools of 6, 5 games and then SF & Final (top 2 each pool).

Have not thought this through so ready for the pile on.

 

[Dan54]

You could do it every game, if you move the games around to other areas.

Being QLD based I would imagine if you had 4 home game weekends (using my double header format mentioned earlier) then have a festival of Rugby at Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, Ballymore and even try a country area like Cairns, Townsville or Toowoomba.

Yep , sounds a great idea. Never really thought of double header angles and moving it around the state would work well and imagine other states could do same.

 

[liquor box]

Yep , sounds a great idea. Never really thought of double header angles and moving it around the state would work well and imagine other states could do same.

Double headers add value and make it an attraction that provides value for money, it also allows TV to have more coverage for less cost, one commentary team, one set of cameras etc. A single ground hire for each Super Team each week instead of two and maybe even using one flight to get to games.

 

[KOB1987]

Double headers add value and make it an attraction that provides value for money, it also allows TV to have more coverage for less cost, one commentary team, one set of cameras etc. A single ground hire for each Super Team each week instead of two and maybe even using one flight to get to games.

As a variation of that, assuming all the franchises are affiliated with feeder clubs, have matches featuring one or more of those clubs as the curtain raiser. That would bring in the club crowds. E.g. say one of the franchises is Northern Sydney (using the Parra river as the boundary) then the feeder Shute clubs would be Norths, Gordon, Eastwood, Manly, Warringah & Hunter so you'd definitely schedule in the derbies between those clubs that are on the same weekend as the curtain raisers. And then taking that a step further, using Liquor Box's festival idea, involve the subbies so for e.g. you might have the Kentwell clash between Mosman & Forest on the second field. I'm talking about all grades here, hence why they wouldn't be on the main pitch but, hell if that's the 'north of the river' derby on the given weekend then showcase it. And so on, down through all the subbies divisions and the kids. We're only talking 4-5 home games a year for each franchise (assuming a 10 team, 1 round comp), make a big deal out of it when you're hosting.

 

[Dan54]

As a variation of that, assuming all the franchises are affiliated with feeder clubs, have matches featuring one or more of those clubs as the curtain raiser. That would bring in the club crowds. E.g. say one of the franchises is Northern Sydney (using the Parra river as the boundary) then the feeder Shute clubs would be Norths, Gordon, Eastwood, Manly, Warringah & Hunter so you'd definitely schedule in the derbies between those clubs that are on the same weekend as the curtain raisers. And then taking that a step further, using Liquor Box's festival idea, involve the subbies so for e.g. you might have the Kentwell clash between Mosman & Forest on the second field. I'm talking about all grades here, hence why they wouldn't be on the main pitch but, hell if that's the 'north of the river' derby on the given weekend then showcase it. And so on, down through all the subbies divisions and the kids. We're only talking 4-5 home games a year for each franchise (assuming a 10 team, 1 round comp), make a big deal out of it when you're hosting.

Like it KOB, but think for a NRC you better to play it after club rugby, as I like the idea of it involving a lot more teams do you would not want to take too many out of club land . Mind you I kind of thinking NPC style where players have played club and a number are picked from here, would I imagine get clubs on board a lot more as players still with them and not either or situation.. But cam see your idea being ok too.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

We need a nrc but to get this right after 2 goes.

I was big nrc fan and big failure was with nsw for variety of reasons. Early days when had 4 teams it was too many but I saw positive signs early when went to rays games at manly that would get 2k and some rams games at concord that got ok crowds but too many teams early, chop and change (eg moving rams to Eastwood) and lack of nswru support (or at least too late) and friction with and lack of support from Sydney shute clubs killed its potential. Oh and next to no marketing as outside of nrc tragically like me nobody would have even known it was on as you had to hunt hard for any info on it.

So key is to learn the lessons. Start with only 2 nsw teams and grow if from there. Get tahs, nswru and shute shield clubs FULLY behind it. Do some marketing. Have Fiji involved (they are a drawcard). Obviously also need your broadcast partner fully behind it as well (and funding large part of it).

We need a nrc but after 2 goes we need this one to be more successful and as possible launchpad to our domestic competition.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

How about something like this immediately after end of Club season:

Top 2 Shute Shield & 1 x NSW Barbarians feat. top players from other Shute Shield clubs and unaffiliated Tahs.
Same in Brisbane.
Melbourne, Canberra, Perth all do the same, but only the Premier team and the rest are barbarians. Players from other states/regional comps eligible for any Barbarian team.

12 teams. Two pools of 6, 5 games and then SF & Final (top 2 each pool).

Have not thought this through so ready for the pile on.

I like this idea and have suggested similar in the past. Though part of me would prefer it to be a single round robin as opposed to pools much in the same vein as the Shute Shield ran their seasons last year.