How to fix the wallabies

[WorkingClassRugger]

AFAIK they play regular competitions against each other - qualifying for the Waratah Shield was incidental, just as St Augustine's qualified by winning ISA.

Thought Oakhill was playing as well.

 

[thepuma]

Hmm.

I'll start by stating that I did not attend any of these schools but I tend to disagree with the article. What is needed at that level is an expansion of schools competitions not the wholesale dismantling of existing structures which would likely see a severe backlash anyway.

The ARU needs to look to work with targeted schools to developed new schools Rugby competitions. For example, there are 8 Sports High Schools the Sydney/Hunter and Illawarra areas. The ARU should work with each of these schools to established a competition amongst these schools.

The author mentions that only 35% of schoolkids are educated in private schools. What he overlooks is that this is a growing segment of the education sector. I'm not saying we should ignore the public sector but working within a growing private system shouldn't be shunned.

However, this is all irrelevant to the actual issues that see talent move on to other sports post schooling. And that's the lack of an elite competition to bridge the gap between school and beyond. Now people will point out Club Rugby both Colts and Grade but I'm referring to an elite competition like the NRC provides.

I've known a number of Rugby players who have elected for League after school because they offer them an opportunity to develop in professional environments. Even if they aren't being paid. This is what we need to establish.

I for one believe a national Universities Championship similar to the Varsity Cup in SA would be an interesting drawcard for many. University studies are very accessible today especially with many possessing elite athlete programs and entry concession. Offering talented footballers the opportunity to train and play in a well structured, elite and professional environments that access to the facilities and coaching such a competition could provide. For those who fall outside of qualifying many Uni's have College's and arrangemwntss with TAFE organisations that could be used as well.

Players from schools and clubs could be invited to trial for spots in these programs. So they would be open to all.

All for more schools playing rugby... just not on Saturdays. Lets see clubs at the apex of the Aus. rugby pyramid!

 

[Quick Hands]

Thought Oakhill was playing as well.

When CAS and GPS withdrew, they were replaced by the teams which came second in ISA and second in CHS, so Oakhill and Westfield Sports came in to make up the four.

Oakhill defeated Hills Sports and Westfield Sports forfeited against St Augustine's because the Waratah Shield final clashed with the Arrive Alive Cup league.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

When CAS and GPS withdrew, they were replaced by the teams which came second in ISA and second in CHS, so Oakhill and Westfield Sports came in to make up the four.

Oakhill defeated Hills Sports and Westfield Sports forfeited against St Augustine's because the Waratah Shield final clashed with the Arrive Alive Cup league.

Is that the new format they are using? Because I don't mind it transforming into a kind of Champions Cup concept. I wouldn't actually mind the ARU using a similar concept in the rest of the country as part of a National Schoolboy's Cup. Might even draw the likes of the GPS and CAS to get involved.

 

[HighPlainsDrifter]

The Wallabies don't have a problem , I mean those that are playing in Europe and are not over the hill (They are better off being well away from the toxic landscape here). Cheika wants guys to put their hand up but does not seem to develop talent - . The quick fix he had employed started pre world cup ... and we came up short . I thought he had gotten the nostalgia trip out of his system , but no , he did it again . This is not building ,it is trying to build a franchise with a wider pool of 50 or so players who possibly don't feel so special . The All Blacks are not a franchise , they are the holding company with a sense of continuity and belonging . I really couldn't give a flying toss which Super 15 team , state , club or school a player comes from , I just care that he deserves his spot and plays for his team mates consistently and develops within the group , forget the ref and just play though the adversity. The best teams do across all codes. You play for your team mates your team plays for your country.

 

[Quick Hands]

Is that the new format they are using? Because I don't mind it transforming into a kind of Champions Cup concept. I wouldn't actually mind the ARU using a similar concept in the rest of the country as part of a National Schoolboy's Cup. Might even draw the likes of the GPS and CAS to get involved.

That was the concept which they tried to use, but after a full 2 round home and away season, the GPS and CAS schools withdrew as the Waratah Shield games were to be held during the trial HSC period.

 

[half]

The old saying monkey see monkey do is very apt to our current position.

Tip [poster on gngr] posted on page 33 in this thread maybe a week ago that rugby was becoming invisible. IMO it was in one sentence a statement of where we are.

SANDDZAR has delivered very few local games for either the media or public to get involved with. Its possible but not plausible that the playing schedule could have been worst.

AFL, NRL have over 200 games and its home and away, soccer about 140 games plus numerous mid-week competitions.

The media coverage for the NRL and AFL if we had talk back, print, cross promotions with their FTA partners is huge.

I have looked on the past two weekends on the News & Fairfax sites and the NCR has not got a mention I could find.

I posted this in another thread but will post again to illustrate my point,

Yesterday "She Who Must be Obeyed" sent me this suggesting she wanted to go or maybe it was an order to go.


The Central Coast Mariners are playing the Wellington Phoenix in a preseason trail match at Knox Grammar. I am also aware that Western Sydney Wanders play some matches at Kings.


Here is the link for the Central coast match.http://www.ccmariners.com.au/articl...ix-at-knox-grammar/1stl1bcu8kegf11pvwiwgjq2vm


I can only imagine what this does to rugby in the school especially when the Knox boys side has made the final 32 in the Bill Turner Cup see above post.


The status Que is changing in the schools.


Kinda makes the whole expand issue a little more urgent if that was possible.

I don’t have any idea how to solve this however for me we desperately need boots on the ground in new areas.


My only offering is its time for unity as we can no longer afford the degree of infighting that is going on.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Yes they AFL and Soccer are making very good headways into private schools was once dominated by rugby alone. I went to a GPS private school in the 80's where up till year 10 could only play rugby (and use to year 12) where that only changed whilst I was there with change in headmaster and with the introduction of soccer and now I understand they have introduced AFL in last year or two. Suffice to say my old school use to be near the top of the GPS ladder for rugby and now increasingly near the bottom.

 

[wamberal]

My only offering is its time for unity as we can no longer afford the degree of infighting that is going on.

We have NEVER been able to afford infighting, at least since 1908, anyway.


All incoming administrators and other stakeholders should be given a briefing on the history of the code in Australia, focusing on the several times that we were either on the brink of extinction (or at least severely weakened): club rugby destroyed in Brisbane by the slaughter of players in WW1, the Wallabies not touring for quite a few years (replaced by the "Waratahs"), the near demise of the international game here in the post-war years. I have mentioned several times the rescue mission that two incoming Fijian tours produced for us.

What on earth is the point of us fighting each other, when the real enemies are the rival codes (on the one hand), and the NH-oriented administration of the game on the other. Not to mention obscure and complicated rules and refereeing decisions. Let's face it, the vast majority of the population just does not understand the game, and the percentage of the ignorant increases generation by generation.

 

[RedsHappy]

We have NEVER been able to afford infighting, at least since 1908, anyway.


All incoming administrators and other stakeholders should be given a briefing on the history of the code in Australia, focusing on the several times that we were either on the brink of extinction (or at least severely weakened): club rugby destroyed in Brisbane by the slaughter of players in WW1, the Wallabies not touring for quite a few years (replaced by the "Waratahs"), the near demise of the international game here in the post-war years. I have mentioned several times the rescue mission that two incoming Fijian tours produced for us.

What on earth is the point of us fighting each other, when the real enemies are the rival codes (on the one hand), and the NH-oriented administration of the game on the other. Not to mention obscure and complicated rules and refereeing decisions. Let's face it, the vast majority of the population just does not understand the game, and the percentage of the ignorant increases generation by generation.

This somewhat defeatist theory - though containing elements of useful truths - fails to explain via broad analogue to Australia why rugby has succeeded to remain a very successful code in the UK when, historically, it has had to endure competition from league (indeed we all know the split first occurred in England) and the vast incursions and commercial explosions of soccer.

Indeed the obvious relative success of rugby v league in the UK is paradoxical vs the Australian history of rugby v league in that the UK, England in particular, is/was far more class-ridden and elitist with its original set of sporting systems than is/was the case here.

From first principles therefore, with rugby more of an 'elitist' code at root, one would tend to surmise that it might have struggled far more in the UK than in Australia as broader-based sporting codes were more widely adopted in the UK by an expanding UK middle class and more aspirant working class as has been the case there for the last 30 or so years.

My own view overcomes this paradox in that I simply believe that, overall, the rugby code has been for the most part far better run from the 1920s on in the UK than it has been in Australia. It's certainly been far better run in the UK in the professional era and today this 'hard to understand with obscure rules' code is generally in rude financial health (especially in England) and gets crowds of up to 80,000 odd into HQ just for intra-England matches.

 

[Aussie D]

Not to mention obscure and complicated rules and refereeing decisions. Let's face it, the vast majority of the population just does not understand the game, and the percentage of the ignorant increases generation by generation.

It is not the rules that have turned the fans away, it has been the style of play and sometimes the ineptness of performance. If the Wallabies start winning consistently and play a good style whilst doing it the crowds will come back.

 

[RedsHappy]

It is not the rules that have turned the fans away, it has been the style of play and sometimes the ineptness of performance. If the Wallabies start winning consistently and play a good style whilst doing it the crowds will come back.

100% AD. Just as happened with the Reds in 2010-12.

That wonderful 'beautiful winning' Reds period - coupled with good QRU management (at that time) right up and down the whole code in QLD - began to revitalise the code here yielding major growth in participation at all levels, really positive vibe around the code in Brisbane, positive media buzz for rugby etc. And big profits for the QRU, plus a c.$4m loan quickly repaid to the ARU.

It was truly amazing to see the rapid rebirth of QLD rugby in that period.

It's all (or mostly) about coaching capabilities in depth and the general quality of management within each RU and the ARU.

 

[Highlander35]

You say the UK.

We (Scotland) royally stuffed up the transition to professionalism, and survived on Murrayfield's equity, which we'd also fucked up by redeveloping ourselves before heavy Government investment became the standard.

London Welsh is on the brink of financial disaster after that awful year in the premiership. The Championship clubs are continuously in uproar with the sheer disparity in funding, and the shouts have only grown louder in the last couple of seasons. 3 or 4 premiership clubs broke the Salary cap last season, and recieved the equivalent of a slap with a wet noodle in response.

And the Welsh Clubs, Regions and the WRU board. Urgh.

 

[RedsHappy]

You say the UK.

We (Scotland) royally stuffed up the transition to professionalism, and survived on Murrayfield's equity, which we'd also fucked up by redeveloping ourselves before heavy Government investment became the standard.

London Welsh is on the brink of financial disaster after that awful year in the premiership. The Championship clubs are continuously in uproar with the sheer disparity in funding, and the shouts have only grown louder in the last couple of seasons. 3 or 4 premiership clubs broke the Salary cap last season, and recieved the equivalent of a slap with a wet noodle in response.

And the Welsh Clubs, Regions and the WRU board. Urgh.

haha - I did say 'overall'! . Yes, there are many imperfections and issues in UK rugby that I could list but I am quite happy still with my knowingly generalised summary above.

A btw: I actually think Scotland rugby does pretty damn well for a country of 5.2m people and with a massive soccer following gnawing away at it. Nearly finished us off at the last RWC and, other than NZ, the best-coached team there.

Just have a look at the Annual Report of the England RU and see what they are planning to spend in GBP on coaching, broadly based skill development, junior clubs etc. They are very financially sound and even more so post RWC (as was by and large our ARU post RWC 2003).

 

[wamberal]

It is not the rules that have turned the fans away, it has been the style of play and sometimes the ineptness of performance. If the Wallabies start winning consistently and play a good style whilst doing it the crowds will come back.

There is a vast difference between "turning fans away", on the one hand, and "attracting new fans" on the other.


Until we start understanding that there is a big difference between the erosion of our existing fan base (which is undeniable) and the failure to attract new fans to the game (which is even more undeniable) we will struggle.


Yes, existing fans are satisfied if we play good, error-free, winning rugby. That is a tough ask at the moment. None of our Soup teams qualify under any of these criteria. Ditto the Wobbs.

But to attract new fans is a whole different ball of wax. For starters, anybody who is currently associated with the game has probably grown up with it, and has learned to love it warts and all. A person like you or me, in other words. What insights do any of us have into the minds of people who know nothing at all about the game? And who have grown up watching soccer, or Aussie Rules, or loig (or none of them), none of which experiences prepares one for the quite different, often frustrating, game of rugby?

 

[The torpedo]

In recent times we always seem to have trouble with the Scots.
2009: L (9-8)
2010: DNP
2011: DNP
2012: L (6-9)
2013: W (15-21)
2014: DNP
2015: W (35-34)

Only 50% winning record

 

[Gnostic]

There is a vast difference between "turning fans away", on the one hand, and "attracting new fans" on the other.





Until we start understanding that there is a big difference between the erosion of our existing fan base (which is undeniable) and the failure to attract new fans to the game (which is even more undeniable) we will struggle.





Yes, existing fans are satisfied if we play good, error-free, winning rugby. That is a tough ask at the moment. None of our Soup teams qualify under any of these criteria. Ditto the Wobbs.



But to attract new fans is a whole different ball of wax. For starters, anybody who is currently associated with the game has probably grown up with it, and has learned to love it warts and all. A person like you or me, in other words. What insights do any of us have into the minds of people who know nothing at all about the game? And who have grown up watching soccer, or Aussie Rules, or loig (or none of them), none of which experiences prepares one for the quite different, often frustrating, game of rugby?

This is a superficial KPI for most fans. The rusted on hardcore are indeed happy and will be over the moon with such outcomes. The rest of the base is not so easily pleased. I have for many many years harped on about the declining skill base of Australian players and the commensurate decline in playing tactics. Basically modern Australian professional players are IMO no where near the skill levels of their amateur contemporaries. I will readily admit they would kill them in terms of strength and conditioning. That skill deficiency means there is simply no way that the ensemble game the Wallabies of 1982-1994 played under Jones and Dwyer could be executed by modern players. They simply cannot pass or kick well enough.

The great resurgence in Australian Rugby's popularity comes in this time because they played a beautiful skilful game that could bring an entire crowd to their feet no matter who you supported.

In the pro era the closest we have come to such a side was the early Brumbies dominated by players in that change over from amateur to pro.

Since then Australian Rugby's most successful side in terms of finals appearances was the Tahs, which played the most boring, percentage based game known outside of the Welsh national side. Almost devoid of skill its crowning highlight for me was Chris Hickey/Foley telling Tahs fans they should be happy because the statistics said they were the best side in the comp, despite their fans not wanting to watch them AND them not winning any games.

The Reds then revitalised Australian Rugby by playing some skilful risky rugby. Despite where they finished the season on the table the recovery didn't start in 2010, it started in 2009.

It isn't a coincidence that the success in terms of crowd following is linked to the watchability of the games, which is directly linked to the skills of the players coupled with the tactics/strategies available to the coaching group with that skill set.

The predicament Australian Rugby is in now is caused by a lack of skills and a belief that winning the next game in any way possible will fix it. Winning this weekend against the Bok will make the rusted on rabid fans happy. For those who came to rugby for the skills it takes a lot more.

I think it is possible to fix the problem, without a doubt, but my solutions would be very unpopular with may of those rusted on type fans and its not a quick fix like buying a big name player or signing a popular ex-player as a coach.

 

[Highlander35]

A btw: I actually think Scotland rugby does pretty damn well for a country of 5.2m people and with a massive soccer following gnawing away at it. Nearly finished us off at the last RWC and, other than NZ, the best-coached team there.

Without derailing the Thread, our Board have been good in recent years. Establishing the academies, BT top to bottom sponsorship, sacraficing our guaranteed 2nd Champions Cup spot for a better share of revenue. Made some tough decisions too, selling off a few good players in Tonks, Denton and Nakarawa for funding, moving Cotter on to ensure Toonie is retained, grabbing Rennie as his replacement, getting an artificial surface in at Scotstoun. Known when to back off too, planning to move Edinburgh to Meggetland rather than in a 90% empty Murrayfield. Tried to cut back the Sevens program, and pull out of London Scottish, but after some backlash from the Rugby community, continued support of the 7s and brokered a lesser deal with the Scottish. Made two mistakes IMO. Ruling out a 3rd side rather than anticipating it, say for the 2019/2020, stagnates our domestic future between Amateur and International. Even if ruled unfeasible a year out, public plans between now then would help everybody, players, fans and investors see what's happening. The other is retaining Solomons at Edinburgh, who's style is nothing like that of Cotter and Toonie, and has done the best part of fuck all with one of the better packs in the NH outside of France.

I'm not too sure what you can take from us though. You have no stadium to sponsor, no players you're able to flog to the highest bidder, no TV marketplace and selfish owners to be wiley with. Beyond killing a Side, as we did with the Borders, much of what we've done is either unlikely, or already been done here. I suppose spending some big $ on high quality coaches, both for the International side and Domestic sides is more likely than some of the other investments, but still.

Hard to think of a solution that'll work in the 15-20+ year future that won't seriously risk killing the pro game off in the short term, but the current trajectory is a bit of a death by a thousand cuts over that medium term future. And when you don't necessarily have the BILs playing 9 games here, or the once every half dozen cycles world cup to boost the coffers, independent of either choice, then well, that's not ideal either.

 

[dru]

This somewhat defeatist theory - though containing elements of useful truths - fails to explain via broad analogue to Australia why rugby has succeeded to remain a very successful code in the UK when, historically, it has had to endure competition from league (indeed we all know the split first occurred in England) and the vast incursions and commercial explosions of soccer.

Indeed the obvious relative success of rugby v league in the UK is paradoxical vs the Australian history of rugby v league in that the UK, England in particular, is/was far more class-ridden and elitist with its original set of sporting systems than is/was the case here.

From first principles therefore, with rugby more of an 'elitist' code at root, one would tend to surmise that it might have struggled far more in the UK than in Australia as broader-based sporting codes were more widely adopted in the UK by an expanding UK middle class and more aspirant working class as has been the case there for the last 30 or so years.

My own view overcomes this paradox in that I simply believe that, overall, the rugby code has been for the most part far better run from the 1920s on in the UK than it has been in Australia. It's certainly been far better run in the UK in the professional era and today this 'hard to understand with obscure rules' code is generally in rude financial health (especially in England) and gets crowds of up to 80,000 odd into HQ just for intra-England matches.

Out of interest, have you spent much time in the UK to have a closer feel for it, or are you surmising?

My 10 years living there gels not at all with your positioning.

 

[RedsHappy]

Out of interest, have you spent much time in the UK to have a closer feel for it, or are you surmising?

My 10 years living there gels not at all with your positioning.

I lived there for 19 years. Please do study at your leisure recent England RU formal reports. Compare them, financially and commercially, to, say, the last 2 or 3 ARU reports. Also, have a look at the mainstream sports media attention devoted to rugby in the UK compared to here.

Then finally please answer me one additional question: what has been the single biggest and by far source of very recently boosted $ income to the ARU? From where and why has it arisen? Would it credibly have arisen from a declining 'in trouble' rugby code base?