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How good or bad was the EOYT?

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Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
The success or otherwise of our EOYT depends on one's point of view:

Those who say the glass is half full will say:

• It was no use picking journeymen for the tour. We were forced to use inexperienced players who are are not rugby savvy. They lack a bit of confidence and on field leadership in various positions. That game against Scotland was bound to happen. A lot of young players are now more experienced and we will see the benefit later.


The counter to that is that the scoreboard guys take no notice of inexperience. As George Allen the NFL coach of the Rams and Redskins said, famously, “The future is now.” Our inexperienced players should have stepped up against Scotland and the experienced ones should have taken more on themselves and not looked at Giteau and the likes of Rocky and Moore all the time.


They would point out that the Wallabies were like Brown's cows in the two EOYT matches they didn't win. The coaching staff should have done a better job with the players they had.


So many times we lost ball or gave up points just because of a lack of due diligence and attention to what was going on. You don't have to be experienced to to be alert. Nor do you need it to have a bit of poise and patience. All those things and otherwise not playing smart meant that Oz couldn't close out the tight matches against Ireland and Scotland. It was 3N all over again.


• The scrums were terrific this year and the lineout was good against Wales.

Some of us used to say: why do we worry so much about the our poor scrums? Our lineouts are good and make up for it; and there are more of them in a game.


Rubbish, say the half empty guys: our set pieces are average at best. These people add in semi set pieces such as mauls and restarts into the definition. Mauling is improving but restarts are an abomination. Arguably we would have had a Grand Slam had our lineouts and restarts been better in the 2nd and 3rd games. It is no use crowing about good scrums if they are not converted into good points.


• But our work at the breakdown is a lot better than last year.

It is better say the half empty critics, but it is often inaccurate and that makes cleanouts less effective. We are definitely getting there earlier but sometimes our first player in misses the cleanout of the first in opponent. It's like missing a tackle in my book.


And some of the cleanouts could do with taking out the other guys arm by bashing into it, or just lifting it on the hit. Our blokes are a bit like blowflies bashing against the window pane: they don't observe carefully enough where the force should be applied. There should be a bit of science to bashing.


• We would have won a Grand Slam if Giteau had kicked better in those two games.

Maybe so; but you have to take the bad with the good, especially when you don't have another elite goal kicker in the squad. It underlines a huge problem in Oz rugby: that the depth in goal kicking is paper thin. Of those who played for Oz this year only Giteau and Mortlock are goal kickers of note. Besides, it's karma. We won a game in Paris last year we didn't deserve to win for the same reason.


And there are no other great goal kickers on the horizon either: I have raved about a few schoolboy players in the last 5 years but I have never raved about one for his goal kicking. But I digress.


• We played some exciting rugby in parts and scored some good tries – especially against Wales.

There we go again - getting excited about style over function. Scotland are a very limited team, but they deserved to beat Oz because they played basic rugby on a wet day better than we did. We lacked a basic structure that was suitable for the conditions at Murrayfield. Our play was too random and our faults that day are too many to mention.


If you want to know what I mean by structure: look at the Poms of 2003. Often their players in 6N, over here on their EOYT and in the RWC, were like cogs in a team wheel. Our players are not of that standard but they should be coached to play like cogs in the set and semi-set pieces, and even in the tackle.


• Those bloody referees
– Kaplan missed Bull Hayes, the Ireland THP, having his hand on the ground in that last scrum, from which BOD scored, and why did the French ref let the Scotland scrummies delay putting the ball in on every Scotland scrum?


Well, Ireland fans could probably have their own list but we didn't deserve the win against a vey rusty Ireland team because a rugby game is 80 minutes long, not 60. As for the Scotland scrummies: it's karma for what Gregan did for 500 test matches.


• We could have won the Grand Slam with Barnes, Sharpe and Mortlock there.


The absence of these three fellows was a major part of the leadership problem. Sharpe would have been a better lineout leader for us and although Cooper did better on his 2nd EOYT than I could have hoped for, Barnes would have reduced the amount of Browns Cowism in the back line and improved kicking out of hand at Murrayfield.


Mortlock was missed too but don't forget that England and Wales had a lot of players out – including those in the Wales butcher's bill during the game.



Well this kept me awake watching the All Black game, just as it will send most people to sleep reading it. But my eyelids are drooping and I'll have to record the other games.
 

spectator

Bob Davidson (42)
The tour won't go down as a roaring success because of the loss to Scotland and the fact that the Irish snatched a last minute draw, but there were a number of good stories.

- The front row was the success story of the tour.
- Will Genia established himself as a halfback of real promise.
- Quade Cooper has added some positive dimensions to his game, including maturity.
- The youngsters showed in the midweek game against Cardiff that there may well be some depth in OZ rugby going forward.

On the goalkicking Lee, To'omua is very handy, just hasn't had that many games in Senior company to showcase those skills.
 
S

Spook

Guest
I think it was a great tour. Obviously not in terms of wins, but we have the younger generation coming through. Beale, Cooper, Genia and JOC (James O'Connor) will be better for being in the squad. The work at the breakdown and scrum is really quite good. I also think the kicking from hand has improved. Kepu showed he can scrummage. That was a big unknown. We are good in the air. The world is starting to notice a certain bloke by the name of David Pocock.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
the tour was better than anticipated, we only lost one game from 6 in reality, thats pretty good.
the forwards are looking better and better, problem is, the step up against NZ and SA, we didnt aim up this year and were are the NH teams if thats the case?

theres building blocks, i think the thing is now, with so many players blooded this year, by this time next year we really have to have a first 15 that fires and has combos or this will all be a waste.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
The biggest issue I have with the tour was the performance against the ABs. The remainder was a pass mark, and I'm kind of glad we didn't get the slam, as it would have covered over some of our inadequacies.

The game against the ABs showed us how far away we still are from our 2 trinations partners.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Overall good, with some significant gains, but still some concerning frailties - more in application and execution. I think the personnel is there, some may be out of position, and some are inconsistent (Horwill, Chis, Palu, Gits, Cooper, Mitchell).
Had we got a grand slam it would have been an indictment on NH rugby to be honest, as this team is not even close to the league of '84.
Pluses - scrum, breakdown work, handling the ball in the air, defence, defence, defence.
Minuses - back line play aimless often, lineouts still a bit dusty, kick-off work, kicking out of hand, consistency
 

Jets

Paul McLean (56)
Staff member
I think the first half against Wales saved the tour for the Wallabies. They are a much better team with Ioane at 13. Cross I hope has played his last game in the gold jersey. He seems happy just to make the advantage line and has no interest in breaking the line.
Cooper is a much better player because of the tour. His kicks this morning had much more control about them as opposed to his game against Scotland.
I wasn't a huge Pocock fan a month ago but I now am a convert. Smith has also come to terms with making an impact off the bench.
Palu is now the real deal in my book. Was quiet against Wales but didn't go missing like he has in the past. Deans should get his (Palu's) mum to talk to all the players.
The front row are great. Both Ben's have stepped up and I think Moore has really come of age, might need to be taught how to dive for the try line.
Horwill and Mumm played well today. The line out was improved but still needs a lot of work. Hopefully a young lock, or two, steps up in the Super 14 next year
The other good thing is the depth of the squad has now improved. Apart from half back and lock we seem to be able to cover the loss of most players.
 

Reddy!

Bob Davidson (42)
cyclopath said:
Overall good, with some significant gains, but still some concerning frailties - more in application and execution. I think the personnel is there, some may be out of position, and some are inconsistent (Horwill, Chis, Palu, Gits, Cooper, Mitchell).
Had we got a grand slam it would have been an indictment on NH rugby to be honest, as this team is not even close to the league of '84.
Pluses - scrum, breakdown work, handling the ball in the air, defence, defence, defence.
Minuses - back line play aimless often, lineouts still a bit dusty, kick-off work, kicking out of hand, consistency

I thought Palu was one of our best all tour
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
The Wallabies have had a habit this year of coming out flat at the start of the second half. Would like to see that addressed next year.
 
N

Neuter

Guest
The tour was quite poor and the side has not improved much on its Trinations effort. We already knew before this big win over Wales that the Wallabies could play well. The victory in Brisbane over the Springboks demonstrated that. The aim of this tour was to win a Grand Slam, because that would show that the side had learned how to play at a high standard over consecutive games. It failed to do that and so we are no closer to World Cup success than when we started the season.

I think it's interesting to compare the two seasons Deans has coached so far. In 2008 we finished with a 9-5 Test record. This year it was 6-7-1, with the Ireland draw. That's a big step down in success rate, so how to account for it?

First of all, the 2008 side had Dan Vickerman and Lote Tuqiri. It also had an in-form and mostly fit Stirling Mortlock, and the services of Sam Cordingley. These players weren't just experienced, they had some things in common: size, aggression, and a willingness to make things happen to get the win.

So we lost them and got some other players instead. Mortlock played injured when he played at all, and was mostly useless. Nathan Sharpe stepped in for Vickerman, but has never had that "let's fucking do something to win here" mentality. Tuqiri got replaced by much weaker players such as Drew Mitchell and Lachie Turner who were never going to make a big difference. When Mortlock went down, a bit of shuffling generally saw James O'Connor or Digby Ioane step in - both talented but not confident enough to take charge of a game.

Is there any evidence that 2010 will be a better season? I strongly doubt it, to be honest. It will depend on a sudden and unlikely growth in maturity of key players such as James Horwill and Digby Ioane, not to mention Matt Giteau. The side desperately needs two or three more players who can play focused, aggressive rugby every Test - the kind of consistency Benn Robinson, David Pocock and Will Genia have been producing.

The only thing that encourages me is that Ewen McKenzie is coaching Horwill and Ioane next year at the Reds. He's a master at getting consistent effort out of his players. Let's hope he can get it done in one season.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Reddy! said:
cyclopath said:
Overall good, with some significant gains, but still some concerning frailties - more in application and execution. I think the personnel is there, some may be out of position, and some are inconsistent (Horwill, Chis, Palu, Gits, Cooper, Mitchell).
Had we got a grand slam it would have been an indictment on NH rugby to be honest, as this team is not even close to the league of '84.
Pluses - scrum, breakdown work, handling the ball in the air, defence, defence, defence.
Minuses - back line play aimless often, lineouts still a bit dusty, kick-off work, kicking out of hand, consistency

I thought Palu was one of our best all tour
Indeed he was, but he has been very inconsistent, although the tour was better. If he could be like this all the time, we would be better off.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
If we look at the numbers of wins all year, then yes, it is a poor record.
Just to counterpoint this, look at Ireland's year. Undefeated. BUT - they played 2 Tests against top 3 nations, won one, drew one. We played 7 against the ABs and Bokke, and therein lies nearly every loss.
I am not excusing our performance all year because it was not good enough, as we had chances to win several more Tests and failed to do so. And our benchmark has to be the ABs and Bokke. I am also not rubbishing Ireland (before the lawyer comes out swinging) - they didn't lose at all, and all you can do is play and beat whoever you face, so well done. Huge year for them.
Just pointing out one of the many problems with stats.
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
Welcome, Neuter, good to see you didn't drown during your voyage across the ditch.

Agree with some of what you said. This second year of Dingo's reign was obviously when he was going to shape the squad to his satisfaction. To discard all the old bastards in his first year would've been too drastic, but we've now seen Baxter, Mortlock, Sharpe and Waugh turned out to pasture for various reasons and Smith and Dunning retained due to shortcomings in player depth in their positions. There's a chance Mortlock and/or Sharpe may return if the newbies suffer unexpected injuries but I have a suspicion Deans would like to groom their replacements.

This tour squad did reasonably well (excepting Scotland) considering its youth and those unavailable. Major problems still persist in the second row, the halves and the back three, and Dingo must decide whom he wants in the centres. There are opportunities galore for young Aussie rugby players in these positions over the next few years; I'd be thrilled to see a few standouts here in Super rugby next year.

PS. Awesome avatar. You're a fan of the great man?
 
E

El Barto

Guest
cyclopath said:
Had we got a grand slam it would have been an indictment on NH rugby to be honest, as this team is not even close to the league of '84.

Got it in one, end of story. ;)
 

disco

Chilla Wilson (44)
The biggest issue I have with the tour was the performance against the ABs. The remainder was a pass mark, and I'm kind of glad we didn't get the slam, as it would have covered over some of our inadequacies.

Spot on Scotty,
Couldn't say it better myself. What positives this tour has uncovered.

1. Will Genia is a genuine international halfback who is going to be around for a long time.
2. David Pocock is the real deal & is our #1 openside flanker.
3. Our Scrum (Benn Robinson is the best loosehead in world rugby & by some way).
4. Digby Ioane is a world class 13
5. Quade Cooper is showing some real good signs of maturity.

The negatives this tour has uncovered

1. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is our best back & we still don't know what position he'll be playing in 2011
2. Our Lineout
3. Deans doesn't have the balls to hand Giteau the 12 jersey, Who will play flyhalf next year?
4. Depth at 15
5. Depth at #8
6. A 3rd choice hooker
7. 2nd half fade outs & kicking to much when we get in front.
 

JJJ

Vay Wilson (31)
As far as I'm concerned what we needed from this tour was to develop some confidence through winning which would translate into more consistent efforts in the next 3N. A Grand Slam might've been enough. It didn't happen. Sure, they can win the odd one when the criticism builds to the point that it fires them up, and when they've taken the underdogs tag. But they can't back it up. A team which deals in upsets.

Positives:
1. have figured out what it takes to boss the breakdown (ie numbers and decent clearing out)
2. scrum has proven itself against all comers, so shouldn't leak penalties due to ref perceptions anymore
3. QC (Quade Cooper) has gotten more experience at international level
4. Pocock now knows he's good enough, and Smith knows he needs to lift
5. no major injuries

Negatives:
1. none of the above positives are likely to influence our standing in the next 3N.


So I guess we'll have to rely on a good S14 season from the Australian teams to put some confidence into our players. :eek:

ETA: oh, another positive was $$$ for the ARU. I'm not sure how much of a split we get of the gate takings, but there were some decent crowds.
 
N

Neuter

Guest
Lindommer said:
Welcome, Neuter, good to see you didn't drown during your voyage across the ditch.

Agree with some of what you said. This second year of Dingo's reign was obviously when he was going to shape the squad to his satisfaction. To discard all the old bastards in his first year would've been too drastic, but we've now seen Baxter, Mortlock, Sharpe and Waugh turned out to pasture for various reasons and Smith and Dunning retained due to shortcomings in player depth in their positions. There's a chance Mortlock and/or Sharpe may return if the newbies suffer unexpected injuries but I have a suspicion Deans would like to groom their replacements.

This tour squad did reasonably well (excepting Scotland) considering its youth and those unavailable. Major problems still persist in the second row, the halves and the back three, and Dingo must decide whom he wants in the centres. There are opportunities galore for young Aussie rugby players in these positions over the next few years; I'd be thrilled to see a few standouts here in Super rugby next year.

PS. Awesome avatar. You're a fan of the great man?

Sure I'm a fan. He was mad, though.

It does seem true, what you say about the side. I've always wondered whether a group of senior players so accustomed to losing could ever be reformed. Even very gifted players must be contaminated after years of failure - George Smith a case in point. He just doesn't expect to win anymore and it rubs off on the team. He's given away so many penalties in the last few years.

But the cost of dropping those old warriors who were good enough to keep the losing margins respectable and win their home Tests if nothing else....well, it's a big gamble.

ps. those gobblers at the fern are very good value.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Negatives:
We rely on giteau to have a good game in order for us to win
Line-out
Locks
Fullback
Injuries
We have not found good combinations in the backs, too much swapping/experimentation/injury
We cant kick ( We played well in the first half for wales. But when we changed our tactic in the 2nd half, which was obviously to get field position n kick into the corners etc, which makes sense when we are winning by a healthy margin. We did it very poorly. Also in the scotland game we did it extremely poorly. To me this is saying we are capable of playing certain strategies but completely incapable of adapting when needed. If wales had of been the AB or Boks you can be sure they would have fought back in th 2nd half successfully).


Positives:
Scrum
Forwards work rate
Breakdown
Pocock
Genia
Experience to youngsters

Like mentioned above most of our positives aren't likely to heavily influence our standing in the next Tri-nations
 

Jethro Tah

Bob Loudon (25)
All the above plus:

Positives - Rocky at captain, JOC (James O'Connor) not at fullback, a good A side putting pressure on the starting lineup for their spots, a good balance of representation from all aussie super 14 sides, and beating England.

I think there were more positives than negatives. At the start of the tour most contributors here held little hope of winning every game so to come away with a majority of wins including the A side is a good thing. After a crap 3N and Tokyo, the games against the NH teams showed signs of progress, future potential and much needed confidence boosters. At the end of the day, we missed out on the grand slam by just 3 points so that can't be too bad.

Try of the tour? AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) v England!
 

Aussie D

Desmond Connor (43)
Paris Tah said:
All the above plus:

Positives - Rocky at captain, JOC (James O'Connor) not at fullback, a good A side putting pressure on the starting lineup for their spots, a good balance of representation from all aussie super 14 sides, and beating England.

I think there were more positives than negatives. At the start of the tour most contributors here held little hope of winning every game so to come away with a majority of wins including the A side is a good thing. After a crap 3N and Tokyo, the games against the NH teams showed signs of progress, future potential and much needed confidence boosters. At the end of the day, we missed out on the grand slam by just 3 points so that can't be too bad.

Try of the tour? AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) v England!

What has Rocky done as captain that can be seen as a positive? The guy is a Wallaby version of NZ's Mr. Invisible reuben Thorne.

Progress against NH teams? we lost to Scotland for the first time in nearly 30 years so where is the progress in that?

The only positives I found in the tour was that our pack played well consistently (except one or two who had poor tours) and our dirt trackers won their two games against weak opponents (if that is a positive :nta: )
 
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