Hooper to start

[rugbywhisperer]

Anyone who knows me knows that my favourite beef is a nics Scotch or Rib Fillet.
My second favourite beef is Super 14 clubs rushing in teenagers.
This morning's news that 18yr old Michael Hooper will be starting for the Brumbies againstthe Chiefs has me absolutely seething.
Without being too arguementative, I really hope the Brumbies don't screw this lad for want of having depth.
As good as he is, I will have to be convinced an 18year old loose forward has the strength, skills and smarts to no be butchered at this level.

 

[Zinzan]

Anyone who knows me knows that my favourite beef is a nics Scotch or Rib Fillet.
My second favourite beef is Super 14 clubs rushing in teenagers.
This morning's news that 18yr old Michael Hooper will be starting for the Brumbies againstthe Chiefs has me absolutely seething.
Without being too arguementative, I really hope the Brumbies don't screw this lad for want of having depth.
As good as he is, I will have to be convinced an 18year old loose forward has the strength, skills and smarts to no be butchered at this level.

Everyone said the same about Pocock playing at 17.......look where he is now. Saw this kid play Brumby Runners & he, like Pocock got their 'Man Bodies' heaps early. He looked good but thought Colby Fainga'a looked better.

Let's not knock tthe kid until after the Chiefs game.

Australian Rugby will benefit from blooding these kids early, look at Pocock, QC (Quade Cooper), JOC (James O'Connor) etc. NZ rugby rarely play any outstanding schools or under 20 players in Super14 but than they fade out from NPC and never heard of again(never reach potential).

 

[Lee Grant]

I'm with you there whispers. It seems to get worse every year doesn't it? And it won't get any better when depth is challenged more by the advent of the Rebels team. The scouts will be waiting at the school gates.

Even if Hooper didn't have a shoulder reconstruction last year one wouldn't want to see an 18 year old fetcher playing in the Super14. Yeah we all know the exceptions such as Pocock but he was a man boy - as was TPN. I even thought the older George Smith was chucked in too early though didn't have such qualms about Waugh who looked indestructible even then - but Smith fooled me.

Let's hope that he comes though with flying colours and that the Manly club will have another fetcher who ends up playing more for the Brumbies than for them.

People may remember with some rolling of eyes my mentioning Hooper a few times as the best player of the Oz Schools tournament at Viking Park in 2008 even though he had a year to go at school. After I saw Liam Gill in the same competition last year at Knox, which Hooper missed because of the operation, I posited that Hooper and Gill would be chasing Pocock for the Oz 7 jersey after the 2011 RWC.

The chase will start on the weekend. Let's wish the young fellow well. He has the bloody mindedness required for the job, all the skills, and a Poidevin heart.

But whether he succeeds, or not, I wish he had been given at least a year of senior club rugby before this.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Anyone who knows me knows that my favourite beef is a nics Scotch or Rib Fillet.
My second favourite beef is Super 14 clubs rushing in teenagers.
This morning's news that 18yr old Michael Hooper will be starting for the Brumbies againstthe Chiefs has me absolutely seething.
Without being too arguementative, I really hope the Brumbies don't screw this lad for want of having depth.
As good as he is, I will have to be convinced an 18year old loose forward has the strength, skills and smarts to no be butchered at this level.

Everyone said the same about Pocock playing at 17.......look where he is now. Saw this kid play Brumby Runners & he, like Pocock got their 'Man Bodies' heaps early. He looked good but thought Colby Fainga'a looked better.
Let's not knock tthe kid until after the Chiefs game.
Australian Rugby will benefit from blooding these kids early, look at Pocock, QC (Quade Cooper), JOC (James O'Connor) etc. NZ rugby rarely play any outstanding schools or under 20 players in Super14 but than they fade out from NPC and never heard of again(never reach potential).

Please re-read my comment - I wasn't knocking the kid - I know how good he is and I am a huge fan. I know how rushing these youngsters into this level can either make or break hem - i would rather see a bit more commonsense and instead of seeing some broken have them all succeed. Rugby is a learning regime, it takes time particularly for forwards and I am sorry - there is no way Hooper has those smarts - yet.
You have shot yourself in the foot with your comment - JOC (James O'Connor), Beale and Cooper would have and should have all been sent to club rugby for a few years and taught the game - all three show signs of being rushed into a situation for which they were not prepared or skilled. Pocock is the only one for mine that has not shown big negatives for being rushed in too early - the other three are classic examples.

Why not let him develop in the cauldron of grade before he is thrown in at this young age.
You are wrong in your comment re the NZ players - they and SA nurture their kids until they are skilled sufficiently to take on S14 pressure. You don't see them play S14 because they have taken their time and they also have a huge reserve of players who have been prepared - because we have not taken the time to build this reserve our S14 clubs are 'forced' to rush these kids through - in many cases just so they don't lose them to the mungos.

If Pocock and others have survived then all the best to them but I would rather see a kid learn the trade before playing at this level.

last year - NZ and SA had two under 21 players regularly running on in S14 - aust teams had for memory 6 or 8. We also had the youngest.
Now - who won the Tri nations and S14 - - for all our rushing of players what has it gained? Just a couple of teenagers who at times are made to look like fools - both on and off the field.


Give me maturity any day.

 

[Lee Grant]

Zinzan,

Interesting about the young Kiwis but I like their system better. I'd rather have our youngsters play in something like an ANZC first to assess them and so they can learn their trade - and better still: a season of grade rugby before that. There are only so many professional games a body can take in a career and it's better in the long run to have that pro time shifted forward.

Those Kiwis lads who faded out of the ANZC wouldn't have made it in Super rugby anyway had they been promoted before their time.

But our youngsters are pushed into Super rugby squads because of our lack of depth, ironically caused partly because of players going offshore because they can't see a professional pathway for themselves here. The crowd at school tournaments here are chock full of rugby scouts - and league guys for that matter - and probably more so at the U/16 competitions because the older boys are already known.

Not many get to start in games the year after leaving school, but if they do one always has one's heart in one's mouth when they run on.

As for Colby Finger and Hooper: I saw them both play for the Runners in two games. I thought that Colby edged Hooper in the match against Sydney Uni at Viking Park before the S14 started, but that Hooper looked more like a S14 player against the JWs at Knox the weekend before last.

 

[Groucho]

last year - NZ and SA had two under 21 players regularly running on in S14 - aust teams had for memory 6 or 8. We also had the youngest.
Now - who won the Tri nations and S14 - - for all our rushing of players what has it gained? Just a couple of teenagers who at times are made to look like fools - both on and off the field.

That's a bit pessimistic, rugbywhisperer. Blooding youngsters rarelyhelps you in the year it happens, but when it works it is an investment is success in subsequent years. Many of Australia's best ever players started their careers at that age: Horan, Campese, Giteau... there are way too many to list. Starting an international career at that age may be a bridge too far, but many young players thrive in S14.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

last year - NZ and SA had two under 21 players regularly running on in S14 - aust teams had for memory 6 or 8. We also had the youngest.
Now - who won the Tri nations and S14 - - for all our rushing of players what has it gained? Just a couple of teenagers who at times are made to look like fools - both on and off the field.

That's a bit pessimistic, rugbywhisperer. Blooding youngsters rarelyhelps you in the year it happens, but when it works it is an investment is success in subsequent years. Many of Australia's best ever players started their careers at that age: Horan, Campese, Giteau... there are way too many to list. Starting an international career at that age may be a bridge too far, but many young players thrive in S14.

I would argue that the NZ and SA experiences are giving a better result - in the long term.

 

[Spook]

It's not like the Brumbies to rush in young blokes. Friend must have a lot of confidence in him.

 

[AussieDominance]

Especially ones that are produced in the NSW system..... Produce some of your own you lads!

 

[louie]

Especially ones that are produced in the NSW system..... Produce some of your own you lads!

we would if you fuckers would let anyone else in your comp

 

[louie]

I'm all for this. The Brumbies (like all Australian teams) need to have in their youth system. Otherwise there is not point in having one. I have deep respect for friend by givingh Hooper, Smith and Jerry runs. It's better in the long run.
They come through the system and we should trust that. he'll be fine. maybe.

 

[Geronimo]

Especially ones that are produced in the NSW system..... Produce some of your own you lads!

That's probably a bit harsh, the ACT "system" is not too large. They will always, as will the force and Rebels, rely on assistance from the other systems. Hopefully in the future the reliance will be less

 

[Geronimo]

My second favourite beef is Super 14 clubs rushing in teenagers.
This morning's news that 18yr old Michael Hooper will be starting for the Brumbies againstthe Chiefs has me absolutely seething.
Without being too arguementative, I really hope the Brumbies don't screw this lad for want of having depth.
As good as he is, I will have to be convinced an 18year old loose forward has the strength, skills and smarts to no be butchered at this level.

Everyone said the same about Pocock playing at 17.......look where he is now. Saw this kid play Brumby Runners & he, like Pocock got their 'Man Bodies' heaps early. He looked good but thought Colby Fainga'a looked better.
Let's not knock tthe kid until after the Chiefs game.
Australian Rugby will benefit from blooding these kids early, look at Pocock, QC (Quade Cooper), JOC (James O'Connor) etc. NZ rugby rarely play any outstanding schools or under 20 players in Super14 but than they fade out from NPC and never heard of again(never reach potential).[/quote]

Please re-read my comment - I wasn't knocking the kid - I know how good he is and I am a huge fan. I know how rushing these youngsters into this level can either make or break hem - i would rather see a bit more commonsense and instead of seeing some broken have them all succeed. Rugby is a learning regime, it takes time particularly for forwards and I am sorry - there is no way Hooper has those smarts - yet.
You have shot yourself in the foot with your comment - JOC (James O'Connor), Beale and Cooper would have and should have all been sent to club rugby for a few years and taught the game - all three show signs of being rushed into a situation for which they were not prepared or skilled. Pocock is the only one for mine that has not shown big negatives for being rushed in too early - the other three are classic examples.

Why not let him develop in the cauldron of grade before he is thrown in at this young age.
You are wrong in your comment re the NZ players - they and SA nurture their kids until they are skilled sufficiently to take on S14 pressure. You don't see them play S14 because they have taken their time and they also have a huge reserve of players who have been prepared - because we have not taken the time to build this reserve our S14 clubs are 'forced' to rush these kids through - in many cases just so they don't lose them to the mungos.

[/quote]

I agree RW, the aussies have at times given off an aura of being desperate for the next big thing. I am not saying that Hooper cannot handle the level of S14 play, but our recent history shows that we tend to rush players. Kurtley training with the Wallabies while still at school was a classic example. He is still struggling and I think it was not for lack of ability but because of high expectations that were placed on shoulders to young to cope. Another difference with NZ and SA compared to us is that there is no need to rush players there as they have so much more depth (player numbers) than we do

 

[Biffo]

Here's a hypothetical for the naysayers:

If Little, Horan, Eales and Kearns hadn't played in the 1991 final how many World Cups would Australia have won?

Staring early didn't seem to diminish the longevity of these blokes, did it?

 

[Reddy!]

To be frank, they were a bit older than 18 and the players your named are exceptions, once in a generation type players, who would suceed either way. Also they debut in the amateur era.

 

[Biffo]

To be frank, they were a bit older than 18 and the players your named are exceptions, once in a generation type players, who would suceed either way. Also they debut in the amateur era.

The herrings are red at your place.

They all made their debuts as kids, which they wouldn't have if the naysayers ruled.

With rugby going fully professional, kids are put on the high-performance eating and "conditioning" regimes much earlier and mature much faster than in the amateur times.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

maybe its ok after all - think of all the comedic routines we would have missed had Quade Cooper only been unleashed on s14 this year instead of 2 or 3 years ago.

 

[Lee Grant]

These views won't be reconciled: you either have one or the other.

To the views of whispers and myself plus spectator before, there are always the standard rebuttals. I've been posting to rugby forums since 1999 and the rebuttals are the same; only the names of the posters and the new examples of: what about this young player or that one, change.

It will be the same the next time we mention the subject and we will know that as we type out our opinions, but we will keep doing it anyway like Don Quixote tilting at the windmill.

We are neither right, or wrong, just persistent. I will argue to the cows come home that a body can take only so much punishment in a professional career and that it should be shifted forward. I also believe that most 18 year olds are more vulnerable to harm from contact in professional rugby than older lads who have had more preparation.

The standard rebuttal to that is usually: give me the names of lads who were so injured because they were played prematurely and I have to answer that I don't know. Maybe some injury guru could provide an answer but I can't. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have to go with what I believe.

But if it happens that a too young player (IMO) gets on the park in the S14, there is nobody more excited to see him play than me, and it will be the same when I see young Hooper as it was when I saw Horne, Beale, Rabbit, Cooper and the others. I think that is part of the nay saying to my view: that perhaps people want so much to see somebody new and exciting that they don't think about anything else.

In the last 10 years I have received PMs from 4 people whose sons were in Academies, or had been, and were put in situations where they were selected for pro rugby games against grown men the year after leaving school. They all said that though they were proud of their sons and were excited for them, they agreed with my view, for the reasons I mentioned, and had a feeling of dread.

End of condescending rant.

 

[Biffo]

These views won't be reconciled: you either have one or the other.

To the views of whispers and myself plus spectator before, there are always the standard rebuttals. I've been posting to rugby forums since 1999 and the rebuttals are the same; only the names of the posters and the new examples of: what about this young player or that one, change.

It will be the same the next time we mention the subject and we will know that as we type out our opinions, but we will keep doing it anyway like Don Quixote tilting at the windmill.

We are neither right, or wrong, just persistent. I will argue to the cows come home that a body can take only so much punishment in a professional career and that it should be shifted forward. I also believe that most 18 year olds are more vulnerable to harm from contact in professional rugby than older lads who have had more preparation.

The standard rebuttal to that is usually: give me the names of lads who were so injured because they were played prematurely and I have to answer that I don't know. Maybe some injury guru could provide an answer but I can't. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have to go with what I believe.

But if it happens that a too young player (IMO) gets on the park in the S14, there is nobody more excited to see him play than me, and it will be the same when I see young Hooper as it was when I saw Horne, Beale, Rabbit, Cooper and the others. I think that is part of the nay saying to my view: that perhaps people want so much to see somebody new and exciting that they don't think about anything else.

In the last 10 years I have received PMs from 4 people whose sons were in Academies, or had been, and were put in situations where they were selected for pro rugby games against grown men the year after leaving school. They all said that though they were proud of their sons and were excited for them, they agreed with my view, for the reasons I mentioned, and had a feeling of dread.

End of condescending rant.

This Don Quixote knows how you feel, although my windmills may differ from yours.

Can you tell us what the outcomes, short- and long- term, in those four cases were?

 

[Lee Grant]

Don't know - they were all English or at least their parents were all from the Scrum forum and they were Brits. Only one parent identified his son and the academy, but I didn't know the lad and I haven't heard of him since.