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Higgers to the Rebels

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Bullrush

Geoff Shaw (53)
The Force need a good cold shower if they think signing a halfback will solve there lower table worries.

Getting good players a pretty good start. That's how you become competitive - with good players.

Compare with other teams in the Top 5:

Chiefs: SBW, Cruden, Masaga, Kahui, Messam, Leonard, Elliot, Schwalger
Bulls: Spies, Chiliboy, Hougaard, Steyn, Basson, Ndungane
Stormers: Bekker, J de Villiers, de Jongh, Habana, Aplon
Crusaders: Franks, Read, McCaw, Carter, Guilford, Dagg, Whitelock

and who plays for the Force??

of course there are exceptions with teams like the Brumbies and the Blues I think the more good players you have, the better your chances are of getting wins. It's not a given but it a great start....
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Which bit is garbage?

The fact that the Force tired to go for the star approach, and failed? or the fact that ACT went for the log jam players and succeeded, and look like they will again in the coming seasons? The ACT had very few home grown players in 1996, and a lot of there talent today is still not from the ACT.

The Rebels need to go after players like Quirk and younger Fainga'a who are stuck just outside the 22, not break the bank on Higginbotham. The Force need a good cold shower if they think signing a halfback will solve there lower table worries.

That's not true at all...

The Brumbies actually started with a lot of home grown players in the squad.

I'm pretty sure close to 1/3 of the Brumbies' inaugural XV were ACT players.

Obviously they took plenty of fringe players from NSW and Qld, but they had a good foundation to build on.

Particularly on the back of the Kookaburras introduction into the Shute Shield and the sudden rise of local Wallabies like Gregan and Roff.

The number of locals have dropped off in recent years, but that's also given rise to the number of ACT players who are plying their trade elsewhere.
 

Nusadan

Chilla Wilson (44)
The latest news from the ARU that it will be getting an extra 12 million or so from the IRB over next few years to compensate further the loss of earning in World Cup years will definitely boost the cause for a salary cap increase...
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Or JON's wallet will get fatter?

In the meantime the salary cap will be decreased...

Fewer ARU top ups...

More Super Rugby...

More tests...

I'm sure JON is looking at ways to have 7 test matches a week with 30 Wallaby contracts.

Most of the players will be on something like unpaid work experience...
 

Penguin

John Solomon (38)
Getting good players a pretty good start. That's how you become competitive - with good players.

Compare with other teams in the Top 5:

Chiefs: SBW, Cruden, Masaga, Kahui, Messam, Leonard, Elliot, Schwalger
Bulls: Spies, Chiliboy, Hougaard, Steyn, Basson, Ndungane
Stormers: Bekker, J de Villiers, de Jongh, Habana, Aplon
Crusaders: Franks, Read, McCaw, Carter, Guilford, Dagg, Whitelock

and who plays for the Force??

of course there are exceptions with teams like the Brumbies and the Blues I think the more good players you have, the better your chances are of getting wins. It's not a given but it a great start....


And all those teams can keep most of those players if they desire because of no salary cap restricting them.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
So offer him less. If he really wanted to stay he would. And why does he have to decide now? Surely he can hold off until RUPA's negotiation with the ARU has produced an outcome?

My point is this- in a world with no salary cap the Reds would still be struggling to hold onto their top players. Despite 2011 their finances still aren't in great shape. S
.
The point is, regardless of whether the Reds can afford him, they cannot resign him on competitive terms due to an artificial salary cap that 2/3 of the comp do not have to deal with.
Any arguments that if he really wanted to stay he would are just too silly to justify a response.
 
J

Jiggles

Guest
That's not true at all...

The Brumbies actually started with a lot of home grown players in the squad.

I'm pretty sure close to 1/3 of the Brumbies' inaugural XV were ACT players.

But the majority of the squad, and a number of key players were NSW/QLD "rejects" so to speak, and it goes to show there is a lot of talent that can excel if given the right environment. What you say doesn't justify the Force or Rebels breaking the bank on 1 or 2 key stars and neglecting development of other squad players.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
But the majority of the squad, and a number of key players were NSW/QLD "rejects" so to speak, and it goes to show there is a lot of talent that can excel if given the right environment. What you say doesn't justify the Force or Rebels breaking the bank on 1 or 2 key stars and neglecting development of other squad players.

But the ACT being a rugby town meant that the Brumbies were able to start off with a lot of locally produce players in the team, and bring in some outsiders to make up the numbers...

The Force and the Rebels didn't have good quality local players to build upon...

Like I said earlier, nearly a 1/2 of the starting XV* that took on Transvaal in the Brumbies' first ever match were ACT players... the Force or the Rebels cannot claim such a thing...


*off the top of my head there were at least 6 or 7 locals in the starting team with more on the bench, plus others in the squad who debuted that year
 
J

Jiggles

Guest
Getting good players a pretty good start. That's how you become competitive - with good players.

Compare with other teams in the Top 5:

Chiefs: SBW, Cruden, Masaga, Kahui, Messam, Leonard, Elliot, Schwalger
Bulls: Spies, Chiliboy, Hougaard, Steyn, Basson, Ndungane
Stormers: Bekker, J de Villiers, de Jongh, Habana, Aplon
Crusaders: Franks, Read, McCaw, Carter, Guilford, Dagg, Whitelock

and who plays for the Force??

of course there are exceptions with teams like the Brumbies and the Blues I think the more good players you have, the better your chances are of getting wins. It's not a given but it a great start....

Who plays for the Brumbies? you could ask the same question at the start of this season, and you'd get McCabe and then a lot of head scratching.

The situation in NZ or South Africa isn't like it is in Australia so it is irrelevant. As it stands in Australia the majority of Super Rugby players come from NSW and Queensland. There have been 2 clear expansion methods in Australia with the desired aim of building depth by exposing more players to super rugby. The ACT model which focused on developing a successful culture, and the Force Model which focused on signing a few big stars. The Brumbies are again rebuilding using their initial strategy of culture, and its paying dividends. I'll let you decide which model has been the most successful to date.
 

Bullrush

Geoff Shaw (53)
Who plays for the Brumbies? you could ask the same question at the start of this season, and you'd get McCabe and then a lot of head scratching.

The situation in NZ or South Africa isn't like it is in Australia so it is irrelevant. As it stands in Australia the majority of Super Rugby players come from NSW and Queensland. There have been 2 clear expansion methods in Australia with the desired aim of building depth by exposing more players to super rugby. The ACT model which focused on developing a successful culture, and the Force Model which focused on signing a few big stars. The Brumbies are again rebuilding using their initial strategy of culture, and its paying dividends. I'll let you decide which model has been the most successful to date.

Errrrr....you must have missed the "of course there are exceptions with teams like the Brumbies".....
 
J

Jiggles

Guest
But the ACT being a rugby town meant that the Brumbies were able to start off with a lot of locally produce players in the team, and bring in some outsiders to make up the numbers...

The Force and the Rebels didn't have good quality local players to build upon...

Like I said earlier, nearly a 1/3 of the starting XV that took on Transvaal in the Brumbies' first ever match were ACT players... the Force or the Rebels cannot claim such a thing...

In 1996 when the Brumbies started, the only player then who you'd could consider good enough to start at either NSW or QLD was Gregan and perhaps Roff. I don't see how it is relevant to the discussion at all and how it justifies the Force trying to splash 600k on a half back, when they have a pretty good local talent (turner) they should be developing and half back isn't there issue. Additionally I don't see how it justifies the Rebels going after Higginbotham this year when they could get a quality fringe players in Quirk or Faainga for far cheaper and also spend money on other areas like hooker and prop where they are lacking.
 

Penguin

John Solomon (38)
Actually....there is a salary cap in NZ......


True Bullrush? I did not know, how does the model work there? The Crusaders seem to keep & pick up which ever players they want & to a lesser extent the Blues (not that it's worked for them this year)
 

Bullrush

Geoff Shaw (53)
True Bullrush? I did not know, how does the model work there? The Crusaders seem to keep & pick up which ever players they want & to a lesser extent the Blues (not that it's worked for them this year)

I'm not 100% of all the ins and outs but each province has a salary cap of somewhere around $2million to contract at least 26 players. There are minimum payments a player can expect depending on there experience etc and I think the NZRFU pays a certain amount towards this. The Super Rugby franchises get the first pick at players from within their provincial unions and then the remaining players go into some kind of draft where other franchises can pick them up.

The Crusaders get the pick of the players mainly because players want to play there. You should see some of the players who went to 'play' for Tasman so they would be in the Crusaders protected player group. Yes Rico Gear I'm looking at you.....
 

redstragic

Alan Cameron (40)
I'm not 100% of all the ins and outs but each province has a salary cap of somewhere around $2million to contract at least 26 players. There are minimum payments a player can expect depending on there experience etc and I think the NZRFU pays a certain amount towards this. The Super Rugby franchises get the first pick at players from within their provincial unions and then the remaining players go into some kind of draft where other franchises can pick them up.

The Crusaders get the pick of the players mainly because players want to play there. You should see some of the players who went to 'play' for Tasman so they would be in the Crusaders protected player group. Yes Rico Gear I'm looking at you.....

Carter and McCaw and 24 other blokes are earning a combined 2mil? The nzru must have a fair top up on top of this. The ARU is not topping up like it was so maybe a bloke like Higgs is more exposed to the change. I am gutted if It is true, he has been one our best. I'll wait till the music stops though. Higgs don't go!
 

Bullrush

Geoff Shaw (53)
Carter and McCaw and 24 other blokes are earning a combined 2mil? The nzru must have a fair top up on top of this. The ARU is not topping up like it was so maybe a bloke like Higgs is more exposed to the change. I am gutted if It is true, he has been one our best. I'll wait till the music stops though. Higgs don't go!

No....the NZRFU pays the players from Super Rugby level on I think but they are restricted to how much money is the kitty - just like the ARU. That's why we've lost so many players over the years and why the NZRFU has had to think of new ways to keep players eg. playing sabbaticals.

Did any of you see what the NZRFU was trying to do to get Carl Hayman back in NZ before the RWC??
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Everyone knows my implacable opposition to this ludicrous salary cap scheme (as implemented currently) and the laughable, dysfunctional general structure we have in Australian rugby where the nanny ARU micro-manages various aspects of the franchises' affairs, but has no care for or influence over or interest in the calibre of their management and coaches.

So I'll stay away from repetition and make one or two other points:

1. If it's true that some form of technicality permits the Rebels to escape a salary cap and/or 3rd party contribution control that every non-PE owned franchise must comply with, that is not a flaw, that's a fucking outrageous scandal as the PE contributions + looser 3rd party $s could always if needed trump the other franchises' traditional income sources.

2. So amusing the posters who like the status quo system in Aus rugby and the 'averaging out salary cap' talk as though our S15 network and Aus rugby generally was in rude health and diminishing the Reds' or Tahs' fire power to help 'the growing network' was/is sorta kinda a good thing that would not affect very much the whole burgeoning system.

FFS: From 2004 to 2010, we did not win an S15! And we only won last year after a near-death QRU clean out of total proportion. No Aus team looks close to winning the 2012 S15 at this time, most of our teams are low in the S15 ladder....again. And does any Aus team look 'on the brink' of S15 glory for 2013, no. The mighty Tahs are struggling again, the Force are in the gutter, the Rebels remain an experiment (but frothing like the early Force), the Brums are being revitalised post near-death crisis through better coaching and culture, not imported expensive stars.

NO Australian S1x team has ever won an S1x on the back of expensive stars and loads of local franchise imports. The message is blindingly clear if you look at the Brumbies' S1x wins and the Reds' S15 one and what is happening again at the Brumbies today: the model that works best here and is proven is this: build on a genuine 'one of all and all for one' team concept and ethos, not an internally elitist culture; build on up-and-developing lower profile players who have much to learn from good coaching but with high latent talent and, crucially, low egos; build powerful combinations of good players not star-isolates; AND quality coaching in depth is king of the hill, nothing of real success will happen without it.

That is, the 'string of stars and top line imports' model has NEVER been proven in Aus S1x and S15, never, not once. And it's been an unequivocal failure at the Force after 6+ years of trying. But it's precisely the opposite thinking that this salary cap, combined with the low quota for overseas imports, and exclusions for PE invested franchises encourages and permits.

3. If we simply must have a salary cap, for God's sake allow players that have played say three or more consecutive seasons with the franchise to be excluded from the cap so as to permit franchises to retain their long-standing players of quality and in whom they will likely have invested substantial amounts of $ and time. To not be able to effectively compete for such players on the open market value principle is grossly inequitable to a successful franchise and will likely denude their capacity to win again in the near term (and it's multiple near term wins Aus rugby desperately needs to build sustained fan depth, sustained commercial strength and broader media interest).
 

Tangawizi

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Posted this story link in Reds 2013 but obviously relevant here too.

The process of player contracting is completely screwed at this point in time and is causing disenchantment amongst both fans and players. Not a good thing when you're already the 4th football code in a country -

"Higgers frustrated by new contract process" http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/s...ntracting-regime/story-e6frf4qu-1226349232799

The key sections from that article that really piss me off are:

In a bid to rein in its spending, the Australian Rugby Union has also decentralised its contracting system with less players given national top-up deals.
Top-up offers are now made after players negotiate with the provinces first, whereas in the past it was the reverse where negotiations started at a national level and Super Rugby contracts were even across the board, apart from third-party deals.

Now top-line players are agreeing to offers from their province on the proviso they receive the top-up they expect from the ARU, prompting players to then look overseas or interstate when it's not forthcoming.
That's the situation that Higginbotham, among others, has been left in following positive discussions with Queensland before starting negotiations with the ARU last month.
&

While it was last week reported he'd agreed to a new two-year deal with Queensland, Higginbotham denied he'd agreed on anything.
"I obviously want to stay in Queensland," he said.
"But it's just a process of going back and forth with my manager and I'm trying to stay out of it as much as I can."

So Higgers does a deal with the Reds - John O'Neill then tells him "Bob Dwyer says you're rubbish so get stuffed on the contract top up front" (or something similar) and now he's off to the Rebels to get the $$ he thinks he's worth.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
As a Reds fan it would be a shame to lose Higgers. Especially being a big fan of him, however as I said with Genia, I hope the Reds make the best offer they can afford and leave it. If Scott leaves, thanks for the good service which helped us win 1 Super Rugby title, and good luck at the Rebels who are in need of your services more than us, I'm confident we will unearth a replacement perhaps not of equal quality, but serviceable to avoid detrimentally affecting our performance.

However in addition, I think the Reds resurgence in 2010 & 2011 and the Brumbies this year shows that when splashing the big dollars, the coach will offer the best value. Both Link and White have gotten a lot out of squads of no names and rejects.
 
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