Heineken Cup 2013/14

[Bardon]

All 4 Irish provinces will be happy with their wins but only Connacht and Ulster will be happy with their performance.

I thought Leinster were a bit disjointed, not helped by Gopperth performance. The pack did pretty well, but they've worked to do on their set piece. Scrum struggled at times and lineout didn't always go to plan. Some stupidity from Castres made life a little easier for them.

It seems to me that Leinster aren't sure what type of team they are anymore. They're somewhere between the expansive team from Schmidt's era and the more conservative team that O'Connor wants them to be. Hopefully they'll figure it out before January.

Munster put in a similar performance, but they tried to force it more often than Leinster did. They've still got more work to do and they're not the finished article. But I get the feel that a breakthrough is within their grasp. They just need one or two things to click and they'll put a lot of points on someone. They've got a couple of months for that to happen before their back to back with Perpignan.

Didn't see the Ulster or Connacht games but by all reports Ulster were very impressive. They're the one Irish province that are definitely moving forward. Connacht will be happy they got the win, even if it was expected.

Outside Ireland I watched Cardiff beat Toulon 19-15. Wasn't the best game. But was impressed with Cardiff beating the defending champions.

I was less impressed with the guy on the tannoy who tried to get the crowd up. It resulted in an atmosphere just as artificial as the pitch. Much prefer it when noise is lead by the fans as they feed off each other.

Can't replicate that with an announcement every few minutes. You just end up with single shouts on cue that become quieter as the game goes on.

But back to the game. Patchell reminds me of Paddy Jackson. A young player with bags of talent and potential, but prone to making errors in big games. If he can eliminate the errors he's going to be some player.

Cardiff's defence was miles better than last week, but there are still gaps there. Toulon struggled to exploit them. When Cardiff got their chance Davies did very well to finish with a strong run and determination at the end to get the ball down close to the posts.

After an impressive win away last week Scarlets dropped points at home with a draw against Racing. They were 20-10 up at half time. Didn't see the game but the fact that match reports talk about Scarlet's hanging on for a draw, it seems like they collapsed in the 2nd half.

From the live games so far this year I haven't seen anyone who's stood out as the form team. Many teams seem to be feeling their way into the tournament this year and the theme seems to be more about ensuring you're not one of the unlucky ones that's out of it after 2 games. In January we'll probably see more teams take their pool by the scruff of the neck.

I'm looking forward to the eliminator that is Ospreys v Northampton. Will be cheering for Ospreys in that one. Then later it's Clermont v Harlequins. Quins need to win to avoid being also-rans in the pool. Clermont is a very tough place to do that so I'm hoping for a special game.

The red button games are Glasgow v Exeter. Glasgow need to win against an Exeter team that will be full of confidence after last week. I think Glasgow will pull it off and keep their hopes alive. But their HEC form isn't consistent enough and I'd expect them to be effectively eliminated in January.

Perpignan v Edinburgh should be an interesting one. Once again Edinburgh performed above their Pro12 position and beat Muster last week. Perpignan won't be happy with the away defeat to Gloucester. With Munster beating Gloucester yesterday I can see Perpignan winning at home and the pool remain a 4 way battle for the back to backs in January when we should see 2 contenders emerge to slug it out over rounds 5 and 6. Unless Edinburgh can somehow produce a win today, it's already looking like the winner of this pool will be away in the Quarter Finals.

 

[boyo]

"I was less impressed with the guy on the tannoy who tried to get the crowd up. It resulted in an atmosphere just as artificial as the pitch. Much prefer it when noise is lead by the fans as they feed off each other.

Can't replicate that with an announcement every few minutes. You just end up with single shouts on cue that become quieter as the game goes on."

This sort of behaviour seems to infect many grounds these days.

Down with dat torta ting.

 

[Bairdy]

Are you referring to the Toulon announcer before and during the match, Bardon & Boyo?

As an observer I find the traditions of Toulon, and to a lesser extent, European rugby fascinating - from the MC hyping up the crowd, to the throwing of the newspapers when Toulon score 4 tries (or win), or the hush at all Irish, and most English/French grounds when a kicker lines up for goal; even if it's somewhat contrived.

If people are having a good time and participating in/with the MC induced chants, there's no harm in that, is there?

 

[boyo]

 

[the plastic paddy]

Are you referring to the Toulon announcer before and during the match, Bardon & Boyo?

As an observer I find the traditions of Toulon, and to a lesser extent, European rugby fascinating - from the MC hyping up the crowd, to the throwing of the newspapers when Toulon score 4 tries (or win), or the hush at all Irish, and most English/French grounds when a kicker lines up for goal; even if it's somewhat contrived.

If people are having a good time and participating in/with the MC induced chants, there's no harm in that, is there?

I don't think so, there is an ear bleeding development in NH rugby of blasting the crowd with music during breaks in play rather than trusting the crowd to fill the void with singing etc. The Toulon, Clermont warm up madness is great craic, soulless Saracens deliberately trying to drown out Munster's travelling support because their own support are generally a collection of nattering menopausal women who have turned up because they get let in for free on their way to Ikea, is exactly what you would expect from that bunch of venal scumbags.

 

[Bardon]

Are you referring to the Toulon announcer before and during the match, Bardon & Boyo?

As an observer I find the traditions of Toulon, and to a lesser extent, European rugby fascinating - from the MC hyping up the crowd, to the throwing of the newspapers when Toulon score 4 tries (or win), or the hush at all Irish, and most English/French grounds when a kicker lines up for goal; even if it's somewhat contrived.

If people are having a good time and participating in/with the MC induced chants, there's no harm in that, is there?

Nope, I was talking about the guy at Cardiff. Every time he announced the score and scorer he'd end it by shouting something like "Come on get behind the blues". The first few times the crowd cheered but by then end all but a handful of fans stopped cheering. So the MC is actually cutting down participation.

Welsh fans make a great crowd. But with this guy there was no singing or chants started by the crowd at all during the game. It was like watching a S15 game.

There are better ways of creating an atmosphere. Take Leinster as an example. I remember when we moved to the RDS first and the atmosphere wasn't that great at games. Leinster were building up their fanbase at the time. To improve the atmosphere they had a section reserved for a group of fans who'd sing, had a drum etc. It wasn't long before the atmosphere improved.

In my experience from attending games up here, NH fans are more likely to get involved with songs and chants when they feel it's coming from the crowd.

The stuff you mention is fine and a good MC can blend in well. Like the one they use in France (also adopted by Leinster) which is a series of notes on a trumpet followed by everyone yelling Ole.

Then there's the loud music that's creeping in, in some places that adds nothing to the atmosphere and just drowns out any noise the crowd are trying to make. Being in the crowd at Thomond Park when the crowd sings the fields of Athenry will make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. No thinny music blasted out will do that to you.

I guess it comes down to the fact that NH fans don't want to just sit in the stands and be entertained (like watching a movie, or watching on TV), the vast majority of us want to feel part of it. It's not about stuff being preplanned or not, it's whether it fits or not. The Cardiff announcement just didn't fit and because of that it killed the atmosphere.

But then you get something like Munster v The All Blacks from a few years ago and it fits perfectly and it put the atmosphere up another notch. The entire build up was carefully planned and staged managed but it all fit in with the Munster crowd. The atmosphere that night was the stuff of legends and there are about 10 times the number of fans who claim to have been there that night than could fit into the stadium.

 

[boyo]

There is a world of difference between some guy on a microphone and a crowd singing (Bread of Heaven, Calon Lan, The Fields of Athenry. etc.).

The use of music to stimulate a crowd is unnecessary.

 

[Bairdy]

Ah, my mistake. I'm actually watching the Cardiff-Toulon match now, and the MC is a little irritating when it comes in before every restart. But the pissing rain must have contributed to the average atmosphere. Hell, I think I heard two attempts in the crowd to start up Land of My Fathers, to no avail!

 

[aeneas]

Having watched Clermont v Harlequins last night I think that there is quite a clear ceiling on where Clermont can end up. Brock James is still the Brock James of super rugby and thats not good. I would love to see Mike Brown playing Super rugby for someone he is sensational at full back.

 

[JSRF10]

I remember at Twickenham for Leinster against the Not Nots in 2010 at every break in play the stadium announcer who shout over the tannoy "Lets hear it for the Irish". Obviously this was something that happens at every London Irish game but it just kept creating more noise from the Leinster fans. Definitely an occasion of trying to create an atmosphere backfiring.

 

[KevinO]

For a pint when I come up to Sydney for the Rebels game next season?

Leinster
Toulon
Toulouse
Clermonet
Ulster
Munster

Highest runners ups: Sacacens and Leicester

Anyone want to put their necks on the line?

I reckon the 1/4 finalists will be Munster, Toulon, London South Africa, Leinster, Clermont, Ulster, Toulon, Gloucester

I am looking pretty good for that Pint

 

[JSRF10]

I am looking pretty good for that Pint

What was I thinking backing Gloucester?

 

[KevinO]

What was I thinking backing Gloucester?

Don't know, I went for teams with the weaker groups so they where pretty much going to get at least one but possibly two away wins.

 

[USARugger]

I'm fearing an Ospreys ambush this weekend for Leinster. Aside from Gopperth finding the G-spot twice and Healy's performance I found it really hard to pull many positives from the Castres game. I'm actually still trying to process the fact that Leinster actually won that one.

 

[JSRF10]

Don't know, I went for teams with the weaker groups so they where pretty much going to get at least one but possibly two away wins.

I think I bought into the Gloucester hype a bit too much, didn't see Leicester beating Montpellier twice either.

I'm fearing an Ospreys ambush this weekend for Leinster. Aside from Gopperth finding the G-spot twice and Healy's performance I found it really hard to pull many positives from the Castres game. I'm actually still trying to process the fact that Leinster actually won that one.

I'd be quietly confident at the weekend from a Leinster perspective. Ospreys are out and the 6 Nations is just around the corner, these are the type of games their Welsh heavyweights tend to go missing in. The game in the RDS last season before the Lions tour Adam Jones and AWJ just didn't look bothered at all. I can't see Leinster getting a bonus point but I think they'll win by 7+.

That said they miss SOB a lot, but Healy back gives them another ball carrying option and Ruddock should come back in. He has been immense this season and its turning into a breakout year for him. He is an injury away from the Irish 23 IMO.

 

[USARugger]

I'd be quietly confident at the weekend from a Leinster perspective. Ospreys are out and the 6 Nations is just around the corner, these are the type of games their Welsh heavyweights tend to go missing in. The game in the RDS last season before the Lions tour Adam Jones and AWJ just didn't look bothered at all. I can't see Leinster getting a bonus point but I think they'll win by 7+.

That said they miss SOB a lot, but Healy back gives them another ball carrying option and Ruddock should come back in. He has been immense this season and its turning into a breakout year for him. He is an injury away from the Irish 23 IMO.

Love the Irish insight as always. If my cousins knew how loosely I actually follow Leinster I'm pretty sure they would disown me.

 

[Bardon]

Great forwards display from Leinster tonight, backs misfired a little though. To their credit Ospreys never lay down even when Ian Evans was sent off for stamping on McCarthy's head after 20 minutes.

Leinster got 2 penalty tries and one each for man of the match Cian Healy and the impressive youngster Jordi Murphy. Leinster's made changes in the front row with Healy and Moore in ahead of Ross and McGrath.

Healy was very impressive in the loose and really up for it in the scrums where Leinster dominated. The back row of Ruddock, Jennings and Heaslip looked more balanced than last weeks back row and played a big part in an excellent display by the pack.

Reddan had a very good game at scrum half but the other backs were below par. Luke Fitzgerald looked the most dangerous with ball in hand but many moves broke down due to poor passing and handling by those around him.

Rob Kearney still doesn't look at his best and his trademark of being dominant under the high ball was missing again tonight. BOD was a mixed bag with some great turn overs but also some poor passes and kicks. His centre D'Arcy looked a little sharper and made a very good break just before departing the scene.

Gopperth as always was dangerous with ball in hand and took the ball to the line aggressively but he couldn't get the backline going with his passing game.

The win means Leinster qualify for the quarter finals and have an outside chance of a home tie. Unless results go their way they'll more than likely be away and teams will want to avoid them.

We're beginning to see Matt O'Connor's Leinster emerge but there's still work for him to do. There's a fragility there that didn't exist under Strauss or Cheika.

The tries came first from a very good driving maul that was pulled down leading to a penalty try. Then Cian Healy went over from close in after a sustain period of pressure on the Osprey line. In the 2nd half Leinster got a 2nd penalty try as they drove a scrum over the line and an Ospreys player came in from the side to prevent Heaslip from fotting it down. The final try came from an excellent line from Murphy who powered his way over.

On the Ospreys I thought the pack did well in the loose but the set piece was always under pressure. In the backs Davies at fullback and Natoga stood out. Davies looks a real footballer and Natoga seemed to be everywhere in defence, especially when they went down to 14.

Already consigned to bottom place in the pool they could have been forgiven for playing like it was a training session but they gave it their all and made it difficult for Leinster to score without really threatening themselves. The sending off and a string of injuries made their task even harder. But despite the scoreline they can hold their heads up.

In the other game in the pool Northampton beast Castres sealing the game with a late try after a chargedown in a tight affair.

 

[Bardon]

Forgot to add on Leinster I thought the Toner had a very good game. He did well in the lineout but what impressed me most was his work in the loose. As with many players who are freakishly big he's had to learn how to use his size to make an impact in the loose. A lot of such players come up relying solely on the fact that they're so much bigger than the opposition and use brute force with very little technique to make yards.

When he broke into the Leinster team he offered something in the lineout, didn't seem to add so much to the scrum and was an easy target for the opposition in the loose. He's obviously worked really hard this year and he's beginning to look like more than just a beanpole for guaranteed lineout ball. Hopefully he continues his development and next on the list should be his offloading and protection of the ball in the collision.

 

[JSRF10]

You forgot Boss, he went over for a 5th try shortly before the end. Your right about the sloppy backs moves, the skills of some of the backs have regressed since Schmidt left.

Highlight of the game of me was seeing Richardt Strauss back, 3 months or so after heart surgery and he is back playing rugby. What an inspiration!

Just to add 21 of that Leinster team are Irish qualified, 15 came through the Leinster academy. All 4 of the provincial underage staff are doing great jobs and we are starting to see the fruit of the seeds sown a number of years ago.

 

[Bardon]

It was great to see Strauss back and he got the biggest cheer of the night when he came on for Cronin.

The Leinster academy is probably the strongest in the NH and it's great to see the foresight paying off through-out all 4 provinces. I think the next couple of years will see a bit of a hand over with a number of retirements from the "Golden Generation".