Having no NRC is better how?

[wamberal99]

NRL has a 100+ year head start, NRL has stadiums, most NRL clubs have thriving, diverse business models.

It's absolutely pointless to look at the success of the NRL and all of the replicable things that a potential AU only professional competition could implement - without also acknowledging the stuff that we will never be able to replicate or achieve (that make the NRL a success as a professional sporting enterprise).

Not to mention poker machine palaces.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

In what way?

I speak to a lot of people, and they really enjoy what club rugby brings.

NRL lives of the exposure club league brings each week and has built off that.

I'm looking at how Rugby In Australia has changed over the last 25 years and comparing it with other countries and codes.

Only sharing ideas.

Would you be having these conversations at Marlins games? One of the many issues with going to a model of clubs first is they just don't have as much appeal as many enthusiasts believe. Yes, the Battle of the Beaches draws in bumper crowds but those may be two games a season are very much the exception to the norm. The Randwick/Easts derby does okay but it woyld manage half of the BotB. Beyond that you're looking at a range of 1500 tops most weeks for most clubs ranging down a a few hundred at regualr season games.

As a rule the Tahs would be drawing more people to a home game than all of the clubs would combined most weeks. And they would be getting more viewers on Stan.

 

[Dave Beat]

NRL has a 100+ year head start, NRL has stadiums, most NRL clubs have thriving, diverse business models.

It's absolutely pointless to look at the success of the NRL and all of the replicable things that a potential AU only professional competition could implement - without also acknowledging the stuff that we will never be able to replicate or achieve (that make the NRL a success as a professional sporting enterprise).

How - I go and watch Sydney uni play and I hear all about the Birth Place.
Manly Marlins have a history back to 1883.

I never said replicate the NRL - but is what we have working?

A CEO, not long back now, had RA pulling support away from the grass roots rather than supporting them - how have we performed and grown since then?

 

[Dave Beat]

Would you be having these conversations at Marlins games? One of the many issues with going to a model of clubs first is they just don't have as much appeal as many enthusiasts believe. Yes, the Battle of the Beaches draws in bumper crowds but those may be two games a season are very much the exception to the norm. The Randwick/Easts derby does okay but it woyld manage half of the BotB. Beyond that you're looking at a range of 1500 tops most weeks for most clubs ranging down a a few hundred at regualr season games.

As a rule the Tahs would be drawing more people to a home game than all of the clubs would combined most weeks. And they would be getting more viewers on Stan.

Very fair points you raised.

Whilst the game has changed substantially from when the Wicks played the AB's.

Only sharing ideas - I can't see a lot of improvement since a CEO pulled support from the pathways.

 

[JRugby2]

How - I go and watch Sydney uni play and I hear all about the Birth Place.
Manly Marlins have a history back to 1883.

An amateur history. Rugby made it's bed not just in the country but around the world years ago by rejecting professionalism for so long, and so the NRL had a 90ish year head start building successful businesses. Apologies if I'm misrepresenting you here, but you seem to be having the same thought many people in here have had in that "club rugby is fun to watch and has a good atmosphere so why don't we lean into that, it's what the NRL does" but it just ignores reality, IMO.

Building a completely new competition run out of amateur clubs would be (while not impossible) very unlikely to succeed by any metric for a very long time, likely multiple decades.

Rugby in Australia is already very likely a decade or two at best away from seeing long term success - and my belief in lieu of a more compelling argument is that blowing up our current professional systems and starting a fresh would most likely mean that timeline blows out by more than double and probably sends the game amateur.

I never said replicate the NRL - but is what we have working?

A CEO, not long back now, had RA pulling support away from the grass roots rather than supporting them - how have we performed and grown since then?

The honest answer here is, yes - it is working - it's just not perfect or as good as other competitions. And just because what we have now isn't perfect, doesn't mean it's not objectively getting better (it is by most metrics including viewership, fan engagement, match attendance, participation) nor does it mean we should blow it up.

And respectfully of course, just because RA has made some horrible decisions in past doesn't make this idea a good one.

 

[Dave Beat]

The honest answer here is, yes - it is working - it's just not perfect or as good as other competitions. And just because what we have now isn't perfect, doesn't mean it's not objectively getting better (it is by most metrics including viewership, fan engagement, match attendance, participation) nor does it mean we should blow it up.

And respectfully of course, just because RA has made some horrible decisions in past doesn't make this idea a good one.

You write - Working, the honest answer here is yes.

I look at the scoreboard - it tells me a vastly different story.

Our 2 major rugby states - how are their super teams performing?
That too me, tells me there is an issue within the pathways feeding them - what could that issue be?
I look at the number of players from those pathways who have to leave the pathway and go offshore or interstate - how are you proposing that be fixed?
Some of those players a seasoned Wallabies, and not just high-quality fringe super players that leave.


A National Rugby comp has been tested now on 3 separate occasions - it hasn't worked.
One of those times, club rugby had to contribute financially.

 

[JRugby2]

You write - Working, the honest answer here is yes.

I look at the scoreboard - it tells me a vastly different story.

Our 2 major rugby states - how are their super teams performing?
That too me, tells me there is an issue within the pathways feeding them - what could that issue be?
I look at the number of players from those pathways who have to leave the pathway and go offshore or interstate - how are you proposing that be fixed?
Some of those players a seasoned Wallabies, and not just high-quality fringe super players that leave.


A National Rugby comp has been tested now on 3 separate occasions - it hasn't worked.
One of those times, club rugby had to contribute financially.

I'm not really proposing any solution - just promoting the argument that club rugby isn't the answer, but if I had to give an answer it would be that we are more likely to be in a better spot in 20 years time by staying the course and slowly improving what we have than blowing it and starting again.

No, we haven't had success in professional competitions for a while, and we do have a number of players plying their trade off shore or in other competitions, but I don't believe the answer to our professional teams performance ills or pathway issues lie in an amateur competition played out of suburban parks, as fun as it is to believe it might be.

 

[Dave Beat]

I'm not really proposing any solution - just promoting the argument that club rugby isn't the answer, but if I had to give an answer it would be that we are more likely to be in a better spot in 20 years time by staying the course and slowly improving what we have than blowing it and starting again.

No, we haven't had success in professional competitions for a while, and we do have a number of players plying their trade off shore or in other competitions, but I don't believe the answer to our professional teams performance ills or pathway issues lie in an amateur competition played out of suburban parks, as fun as it is to believe it might be.

I have paid attention to this so not sure - how many contracts open up each year at the reds?

I dont know the school system up there - only Churchie from my primary school tour (many many years back) but let's say there is a stack of talent coming out of school rugby - into how many contracts?

We cant catch the players with our current model.

 

[JRugby2]

I have paid attention to this so not sure - how many contracts open up each year at the reds?

I dont know the school system up there - only Churchie from my primary school tour (many many years back) but let's say there is a stack of talent coming out of school rugby - into how many contracts?

We cant catch the players with our current model.

You're right, if we had more teams we'd have more opportunities for players. I regret the loss of the rebels for this very reason.

But how does club rugby solve this? You can't just speak opportunity into existence, it's gotta be sustainable right? Where does the money come from to pay these players (average cost of player salaries in Aus SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) sides is in the realm of $10-15M), let alone run these clubs at a professional scale?

 

[Dave Beat]

More teams = the club pathways.

Money to pay these players is the question - money often comes from hard work.

If Twiggy was brought into discussions not many years back now??? - I wonder???

I haven't paid close attention to what happened with the Springbok Super teams, but I do know they have their best players playing globally, not as big a drain on the Boks financially as clubs around the world are footing the player bill.

I know I sort of contridict myself a little;
Suggesting we loose, or let players play offshore like the springboks.
But have a structure where money can also retain players with a professional club rugby comp that is funded by clubs/state / RA.

Just don't know, but a lot of money is being spilt at present with a rather bare trophy cabinet.

 

[JRugby2]

More teams = the club pathways.

Money to pay these players is the question - money often comes from hard work.

If Twiggy was brought into discussions not many years back now??? - I wonder???

I haven't paid close attention to what happened with the Springbok Super teams, but I do know they have their best players playing globally, not as big a drain on the Boks financially as clubs around the world are footing the player bill.

I know I sort of contridict myself a little;
Suggesting we loose, or let players play offshore like the springboks.
But have a structure where money can also retain players with a professional club rugby comp that is funded by clubs/state / RA.

Just don't know, but a lot of money is being spilt at present with a rather bare trophy cabinet.

I obviously can't be sure here, but my gut feeling is that a set up like this has a better chance of working in a place like South Africa than Australia as RSA doesn't have the NRL or AFL to compete with. Sure they have big professional football set up but it's not the same as the competition we face in Australia.

I feel like if we were to do the same (let all of our marquee players play off shore and still pick them for Wallabies, then run a lower cost but larger domestic comp) it wouldn't retain the same level of relative popularity or interest as professional rugby does in South Africa - who FWIW are seeing more and more players return home.

I think it would very quickly be seen as too amateur and lack cut through with the population who have a higher standard of football (albeit, league rather than union) and probably end up being another feeder comp to the NRL rather than to rugby.

 

[Dave Beat]

I obviously can't be sure here, but my gut feeling is that a set up like this has a better chance of working in a place like South Africa than Australia as RSA doesn't have the NRL or AFL to compete with. Sure they have big professional football set up but it's not the same as the competition we face in Australia.

I feel like if we were to do the same (let all of our marquee players play off shore and still pick them for Wallabies, then run a lower cost but larger domestic comp) it wouldn't retain the same level of relative popularity or interest as professional rugby does in South Africa - who FWIW are seeing more and more players return home.

I think it would very quickly be seen as too amateur and lack cut through with the population who have a higher standard of football (albeit, league rather than union) and probably end up being another feeder comp to the NRL rather than to rugby.

All a mystery - i don't think we will ever know.

But noting that - a lot of the historically weaker nations have their players developing around the world and compete world cup time.

The club I support down here (Manly) has recruited several players globally, as have several other Shute Shield clubs.
I dont feel like Rugby In Aus is supporting the same pathway - there is another thread i started a while back, think it holds the record for number of contributions - I'll go find it.

 

[Dave Beat]

Not to mention poker machine palaces.

Another close one on the weekend for you - wish you got up
My last visit (a while back now) Nth Ryde RSL had a few of these machines as well.

 

[wamberal99]

Another close one on the weekend for you - wish you got up
My last visit (a while back now) Nth Ryde RSL had a few of these machines as well.

The RSL does for sure. Small beer compared to St George League's Club, or Souths Juniors.

 

[Rob42]

The RSL does for sure. Small beer compared to St George League's Club, or Souths Juniors.

And I don't think any of that pokie money flows back to the Woods. Match-day money flows to the RSL, costing the club.

 

[moa999]

Think we lost posts over the last few days, but it appears we have a replacement for the NRC -
The "not so Super" Rugby Australia to commence in September running for four weeks plus final.

Rugby Australia confirms new domestic Super Rugby AUS competition to kick off in September

www.rugby.com.au

I say "not so Super" as it will presumably be minus the Wallabies Squads who have games against Argentina and NZ over this period.

Also has an U19 and U16 series, for which I put a thread in the Schoolboys subforum.

 

[dru]

I think club rugby should be top tier (priority) and what RA (NSW / QLD / and other rugby hubs focus on).

Hey Dave, still chasing those Kingies?

Mate, a couple of points.

1. Generically I agree with you and would have loved to have seen an alternate approach that locked in from the clubs. but...
2. It's incorrect imo, to say that that the NRC was unsuccessful. It was that in NSW where the SRU actively attacked the comp. I'd suggest it was a hit in Qld as (a third tier) and pretty effective in WA, Vic, ACT. It still concerns me that it is not obvious that the rift between RA and SRU (and NSWRU) has been resolved. It is a problem for Australian rugby whatever competition is in place.
3. A club comp as the basis for a domestic comp might have strong support in Sydney. In Brisbane I doubt many clubs would be ready to stand solo, and as we saw with the NRC, QRU would have to step in with club amalgamations or representative areas or something. So we are back to one of the key criticisms of the NRC - no built-in tribalism.
4. What club scenario in Vic or WA would manage the "first tier" club comp? We would lose the status of National Sport. For that matter, in ACT you'd possibly see the Vikings, but otherwise the club supporters would be split with animosity and creating (or sheeting home) problems, not easing them.

5. I've sadly come to the conclusion that the ship has sailed. The opportunity has, I believe, been missed for a truly National Domestic Comp - whatever basis is used for it's creation.


All the best.