France v Australia, Saturday 19 November

[barbarian]

You can make a fair case for every change Nick, but when you step back and look at the whole picture it's all just a bit much IMO.

 

[Pfitzy]

Gotta say, I'm seeing a lot of pissing and moaning about this team.

What's the big fucking deal?

Let's remember the discussions we had about winning a Grand Slam, and the difficulty of going 5 games in a row on tour, especially with Ireland and England in the last two weeks.

Let's remember the 2016 we had, and the depth we DID NOT HAVE, and the number of players we had to blood in a very short time.

Let's remember the carry-on about this player being selected over that, or how this player only got 5 minutes off the bench or none at all, and how unjust that was.

Now let's look at this team, and who the fuck is getting opportunities.

These guys aren't mugs - look at the number of caps across the team and its not much different to what we put on the field last week.

There are 493 caps in that starting lineup against France. There were 581 caps against Scotland.

Pocock gets to start - as captain
McMahon gets to start
Genia + Cooper get to start
Moore, Folau and Hooper (who hasn't missed a minute of Test rugby in 2016, by my recollection) get a rest
Morahan gets a shot

A lot of players starting have not had a lot of game time lately, so this is a good thing.

Losing would suck, sure, but it always does. At least this way we'll have some battle-ready troops on board if we get some injuries.

 

[PeterK]

PeterK just to clarify.

I.e. Those that cannot see this as a "B" team despite 11 changes and only 2 first choice current starters being retained (Kuridrani does not count as he is no longer first choice. He's an injury replacement for Kerevi).

I know you were not targeting me.

It is a B team but a B team a lot of people wanted. So many call for Morahan and to drop Folau.
So many want Hooper out, Pocock at 7.
So many want Foley out, QC (Quade Cooper) at 10.
So many wanted Moore out.

Sorry you have to include Kuridrani as a first choice, injuries happen and he would be starting in the A team.

You have Simmons (with Coleman out), Pocock, Genia, TK and Speight as first choice so 5 first choice or in other words would start in the A team.

Add in QC (Quade Cooper) who a large number feel should start so that is at least 6.

 

[Scotty]

See this is just making a negative out of a positive purely in the interest of anti-Cheikaism.

I'll give you a different point of view - Cheika wasn't convinced enough of Morahan to pick him in the squad initially, but was interested in him enough to get Deans to pick him in the BaaBaas so he could get a look at him against the Boks and Fiji knowing that he could then bring him into the squad once those games were over. He liked what he saw so he's now picked him and he'll probably stay with the squad for the rest of the tour.

Koroibete on the other hand wasn't Union-ready enough to play for the BaaBaas but Cheika wants to develop him so he picked him in the touring squad, probably in no-one's place despite your insistence that he took Morohan's, so he could work on him that way and select him when he thinks he his ready. He's not ready so he hasn't picked him.

No problems, and no jersey 'devalued'.

Here is my perspective:

The ARU or Cheika guaranteed Koroibete he would be selected if he came over so were forced to pick him. Cheika's bullshit about always knowing that he would have a chance to get Morahan involved is just an excuse.

If Cheika wasn't chasing the glory of a grand slam we wouldn't be seeing this team vs France. You, me and every other man and his dog know that.

Here is a question:

If the Kangaroos picked a union player who has never played professional league to tour with them - what do you think the reaction would be? If they changed 10 players between playing NZ and England what would the reaction be?

You could also ask similar questions based on the Australian cricket team - picking guys from club cricket or making 8 or so changes to a winning team!

What would we say about that?

 

[Pfitzy]

You can make a fair case for every change Nick, but when you step back and look at the whole picture it's all just a bit much IMO.

I'm not saying you're wrong - that number of changes can disrupt things markedly, but there are some good, experienced heads in this lineup, and its a tough place to win.

 

[Lindommer]

Presuming Skelton gets dropped from the bench (and deservedly so, do we want the narky Frogs niggling him?), six out of the remaining eight have been first choice players the last few tests. The finishers for this test bring an enormous amount of form and experience on to the field.

The clash of the PI warriors in the backs, Speight/Kuridrani/Naivalu/Naiyaravoro v Vakatawa/Fofana/Nakaitaci, should be worth the price of admission alone.

 

[PeterK]

Here is my perspective:

The ARU or Cheika guaranteed Koroibete he would be selected if he came over so were forced to pick him. Cheika's bullshit about always knowing that he would have a chance to get Morahan involved is just an excuse.

Obviously you are wrong.

The FACT is Koroibete has NOT been selected, so no he was not promised a selection at all.

That is a fact he has not been selected no matter what spin you put on it.
Cheika has always maintained that he would be looked at in the midweek Baabaas game.

He specifically mentioned Morahan as being unlucky in missing original squad selection. Now he did see him involved in 2 games and selected him.
These 2 are facts as well.

 

[fatprop]

KOB how is it "not blanket B graders" excluding Pocock and Genia?

Who is a B Grader in your mind then? Guys that can't crack Super Rugby?

Without injury some starters would not even be in the squad at all (e.g. Latu, Morahan, Godwin).

and with another few injuries they maybe all starting next, that is the reality of rugby

 

[Pfitzy]

He specifically mentioned Morahan as being unlucky in missing original squad selection. Now he did see him involved in 2 games and selected him.
These 2 are facts as well.

DON'T BRING YOUR FACTS IN HERE!!!

To be honest, if Morahan keeps up his good form - acknowledging that France will be a different prospect from the Boks or Czechoslovakia (thanks Google for the spelling) he'll be right in line to tap Speight on the shoulder.

 

[Pfitzy]

and with another few injuries they maybe all starting next, that is the reality of rugby

Shit yeah! Imagine two key injuries late against Ireland and none of the backups have no any game time

 

[KOB1987]

KOB how is it "not blanket B graders" excluding Pocock and Genia?

Who is a B Grader in your mind then? Guys that can't crack Super Rugby?

Without injury some starters would not even be in the squad at all (e.g. Latu, Morahan, Godwin).

You obviously didn't read my post above. For starters I look at the 23 not the 15. Others don't, that's what I do though.

Aside from Pocock and Genia you also have to add in Kuridrani and Speight as they have been starters in the last 2 tests. That's 4.

Slipper, Simmons, Douglas, Fardy, Moore, Mumm, Sio, Phipps, Foley were all starters in the RWC final last year so although a couple might be out of favour or down on form they are still A graders. Thats 9 more, so 13.

Quade has been in the 23 every test this year, and Alan and Latu have recently too. Thats 16.

McMahon was first choice before he got injured. 17.

So 17/23 IMO are arguably first choice in the 23. That's nowhere near close to blanket B graders.

EDIT: I forgot Timani so that's 18

 

[Scrubber2050]

Cheika is damned when he does and damned when he doesn't.

"If" Cheika rotated more in the early tests there would have been complaints about his continual tinkering stopping the team developing cohesion.

"If" Cheika makes too many changes, he is devaluing the jersey

Cheika could be shitting golden eggs and there would be complaints that they aren't big enough

To be fair Chek hasn't laid too many golden eggs in the past 12 months, big or small.

 

[Train Without a Station]

No KOB I read it. It's just bending the logic to support your view.

With a squad of 30-odd of course some bench players will be starters in the B team.

The RWC was a year ago. Saying somebody was a starter there is irrelevant to the current team. Also Sio and Slipper were not both starters. Phipps was not a starter either.

There may be a couple of fringe changes, or players higher in the pecking order coming back. That explains Quade and McMahon. But when you are already resting 3 unrivalled first choice starters in Hooper, Folau and Moore plus others on top of injuries it just further compounds when you make more selections to give players a chance.

Fatprop, well yes. Any B choice will be a starter with injuries. They're the B Choice........

Scotty, to be fair to Cheika you cannot compare Koribete to the Kangaroos. The Wallabies have a full season in their own right where the Kangaroos are closer to an All-Australian type team with much less regular meaningful competition. Further to that they select from a much wider pool than the Wallabies. Very few fit outside backs were left behind for Koribete and the issue was that we was selected in addition to 2 very similar players in Speight and Naivalu if anything.

 

[Bronzewhaler]

This is a test match. You play to win every test match.
The best team must play. This is not the best team.
If a player needs a rest then he is not fit and shouldn't be touring - they are professional athletes.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I really don't have a problem with the team chosen, particularly in light of the Irish game (and English) coming up.

There are arguments this way and that for certain players being chosen/rested.

Great to see Pocock captain the side.

The only selection (possible) that gobsmacks me is Shelton

 

[PeterK]

I do have 1 complaint.

There are too many tahs in the starting team.

There is an obvious bias of Cheika towards the tahs and this selection shows that yet again.

 

[Mr Pilfer]

I think the world cup was a good example that we struggle to get up for 5 games in a row. We should have been knocked out by Scotland, maybe that lesson has taught Cheika that the number 1 side needs a break in the middle of the tour.

I know one thing though I am more excited than normal about this test to see how some of these players go (McMahon,Cooper, Godwin, Naivalu, Naiyaravoro, Morahan)

 

[KOB1987]

No KOB I read it. It's just bending the logic to support your view.

With a squad of 30-odd of course some bench players will be starters in the B team.

The RWC was a year ago. Saying somebody was a starter there is irrelevant to the current team. Also Sio and Slipper were not both starters. Phipps was not a starter either.

You're the one leaving out Kuridrani, Speight, Simmons and Cooper so I could contend that it's you who is bending the logic to support your argument.

With the RWC players yes I said 'starters' but I meant they were in the 23. Of those 9 players the only one who hasn't been a first choice in the 23 recently is Douglas, most think he has been carrying an injury and now that Coleman's out he's in the running to be first choice for the remaining tests. You could argue Fardy as well but most on here would have him ahead of Mumm.

Agree re Koroibete.

I wonder what the feeling would be if the team was chosen this way instead:

1. Sio
2. Moore
3. Alan
4. Douglas
5. Simmons
6. Fardy
7. Pocock
8. Timani
9. Genia
10. Cooper
11. Speight
12. Foley
13. Kuridrani
14. Naivalu
15. Morahan

16. Latu
17. Slipper
18. Robertson
19. Mumm/Skelton
20. McMahon/Mumm
21. Phipps
22. Godwin
23. Nayarovoro

 

[Sully]

I have a leg in both camps. I believe we should always play our best side against tier one nations. But I'm pleasantly surprised that we can field a pretty good looking side and make 11 changes. If things click we could win with this side and it's not like they're strangers to each other. Bring it on.

Ps Skelton should be dropped and not picked again.

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[Sully]

The last 5 pages have been great. Keep it up guys.

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