Force 2018

[cyclopath]

Mate, zero problem with anyone.

How can I break this down without forcing you to jump to an irrational conclusion?

When you and other posters waive off quite legitimate gripes about unfair treatment as "It's just a Sandgroper and the chip on their shoulder" (or something similar) you ignore a pattern of behaviour that has gone on well before the establishment of the Force - and in many areas of public life.

For example, you're all amazed at how cool Geoff Stooke is. He's a great bloke, we already knew that, but so many of you are in the bubble that it's only after more than 30 bloody years of service that you've heard of him.

It's just one example.

There are lists as long as your arm that document the perceived and actual imbalance in the way the ARU has dealt with the Force.

At best, it could be considered negligence by the powers that be in the east. At worst, it's a campaign.

Either way, don't just waive it off, because many of you clearly fail to understand what's actually gone on.

I agree there are some misconceptions flying around in all this discussion about various teams and players in this saga, but you're painting with a broad brush there, and I think also that many posters are well aware of the issues, rather than being as naive to them as you think.
No-one waived off gripes as being "Just a Sandgroper etc........." rather some took exception to the tag of East Coast elitism which is equally dismissive. As I said it goes both ways. I don't think either label helps advance any discussion in what is, clearly, a very fraught subject for many fans, players and otherwise from the West.
I fully understand suspicion and mistrust at the ARU after all of this, and I really cannot know how I would react if my team got axed (although I have become somewhat disillusioned with them anyway!).

 

[Shiggins]

Firstly, the Force have not been treated fairly at any point during their existence. But the Rebels didn't get a massive leg up like you think.

You mention internationals like they were great players. Have you looked at the Rebels 2011 initial squad?

Our internationals were
- Michael Lipman - played 10 games for England - last in 2008
- Danny Cipriani - played 14 games in total for England
- Hoani Macdonald - 33 games for Highlanders
- Gareth Delve - 11 games for Wales
- Ged Robinson - 5 games for the Hurricanes previously, 15 later for the Highlanders and 4 for the Crusaders

In terms of Australian players, we got squat. Stirling was the only big name but he was 2 years out of internationals.

I don't think the Rebels had one player who would be on the bench for their country let alone in the 15.

At least the Force got Cannon and Sharpe

They were Australian ..........
I meant international signings not test rugby players

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[Braveheart81]

I don't think there is any doubt the ARU has provided far more financially and otherwise to the Rebels over their history than to the Force.

I would say that there has certainly been a history of the ARU making greater efforts to make things work in Melbourne which they saw as a bigger potential market than in Perth.

When it came down to cutting a team though I don't think that impacted things.

I am entirely certain that if the time to cut a team had been during the time the ARU wholly owned the Rebels they would have been cut immediately.

 

[farva]

F

Hmmm . I think corruption is a bit of a strong accusation. Incompetence, perhaps. Clear focus on NSW and Qld, of course.

Clearly, they have had some sort of view that they wanted the Rebels to be privately owned. It failed once but they were so committed to the idea (maybe because that is how they want to progress with all teams. So when the opportunity came up again, they made the move again.

There was also a massive increase in broadcast revenue when moving to 18 teams and I don't think anyone really thought that they would be cutting teams in 2 years.

In terms of the Tahs and Reds, there is no chance that they would ever be on the chopping block. You can argue whether this is from the ARU's focus on the two states or because they have historically and currently produced most of the national team but they are always going to be untouchable.

So that leaves the Brumbies who have been Australia's best performing team albeit in a small city. Realistically, they probably should have been considered. The crowds there are as bad as the Rebels and Force and they have a much longer history of winning games. Both the Rebels and Force have had a pretty poor history of performance which would have contributed to the loss in crowds - no fun watching your team continually suck

If the Force were seeing crowds in the early days (in the 20,000's or at least high teens) and the Brumbies were seeing their current crowds, then I think there would have been much more pressure put on the Brumbies. But current crowds for the Force suck (as they do for all teams).

If the Force survive, then I bloody hope that the missing crowds from previous years turn up. The large crowds of upset Perth and Melbourne Rugby fans didn't exactly turn up on mass when the teams were under threat.

I agree that the Reds and the Tahs probably wouldnt have come out on the bottom, and that it would have been one of the Force, Rebels or Brumbies.
My point with that though is that an open assessment by a third party with clearly defined parameters for the assessment, completed by a third party and then made public (as the ARU are publicly funded) is what was needed. They didnt do that, they fudged some numbers and then made the easiest call. They took public money to do it too. Its vital in public organisations that their operations are visible. I think, had all teams been put on the table and then the Force shown to be the ones to be culled, I would have not been happy but at least accepted the decision. Instead, there has been no planning and the ARU management seemingly selecting who is to be cut based on gut feel.
The corruption bit comes in to why they need to cut a team altogether. You are probably right and it might be too hard, but I feel it is being done to make the ARU bottom line look better in the short term and therefore make Clyne, Pulver et al look better when they finish. Genia is being bought back at a reported $800k a year paid by the ARU. Pocock is on a sabatical getting $750k a year. Beale has been lured back I assume for a similar figure to Genia. That is $2m+ a year just for those three. The Force only costs $6m so the ARU probably wont go bust.

 

[farva]

I don't think there is any doubt the ARU has provided far more financially and otherwise to the Rebels over their history than to the Force.

I would say that there has certainly been a history of the ARU making greater efforts to make things work in Melbourne which they saw as a bigger potential market than in Perth.

When it came down to cutting a team though I don't think that impacted things.

I am entirely certain that if the time to cut a team had been during the time the ARU wholly owned the Rebels they would have been cut immediately.

Id argue that the ARU learned some lessons from bringing in the Force, that they applied to the Rebels.
When the Force came in, the other three franchises worked quickly to re-sign their players meaning that there were not many super quality players available to the Force. I remember reading that the Force were signing basically whoever was willing to come over. There was no real strategic planning involved.
When the Rebels came along, they realised the mistakes of the Force and relaxed some of the rules, particularly around players who would not qualify for Australia. That was done to make sure that the Rebels were more competitive. I think it worked.

 

[Braveheart81]

Id argue that the ARU learned some lessons from bringing in the Force, that they applied to the Rebels.
When the Force came in, the other three franchises worked quickly to re-sign their players meaning that there were not many super quality players available to the Force. I remember reading that the Force were signing basically whoever was willing to come over. There was no real strategic planning involved.
When the Rebels came along, they realised the mistakes of the Force and relaxed some of the rules, particularly around players who would not qualify for Australia. That was done to make sure that the Rebels were more competitive. I think it worked.

Yes, I agree completely with all this.

Certainly the ARU has poured a lot more money into the Rebels as well but I think that is entirely out of necessity to keep them afloat than any sort of favouritism. You can guarantee that the ARU would have preferred not to have spent that money on the Rebels if their financial position had been stronger.

 

[Killer]

Alan Jones, details of WF meeting with Carke and Todd Day

 

[Killer]

Cano

http://www.6pr.com.au/podcast/cannon-slams-decision-to-axe-the-force/

 

[James Pettifer]

They were Australian ....
I meant international signings not test rugby players

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Yeah, but they were pretty average players. I would believe the Force's initial squad was much stronger than the Rebels.

Part of this would have been going from 3 to 4 teams would get you better players than 4 to 5 teams.

 

[James Pettifer]

Id argue that the ARU learned some lessons from bringing in the Force, that they applied to the Rebels.
When the Force came in, the other three franchises worked quickly to re-sign their players meaning that there were not many super quality players available to the Force. I remember reading that the Force were signing basically whoever was willing to come over. There was no real strategic planning involved.
When the Rebels came along, they realised the mistakes of the Force and relaxed some of the rules, particularly around players who would not qualify for Australia. That was done to make sure that the Rebels were more competitive. I think it worked.

I personally think that if you compare the initial Rebels Squad to the the initial Force Squad that the Force Squad was materially stronger in both players who had already played and players who were then to become very strong players.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Cyclo your calls are just getting better..is this cause you're now a Kiwi?

Say what? He's this guy now?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortland_Street

 

[BLR]

Yeah, but they were pretty average players. I would believe the Force's initial squad was much stronger than the Rebels.

Part of this would have been going from 3 to 4 teams would get you better players than 4 to 5 teams.

The Force squad was still pretty weak when the Rebels were started. The ARU jumped the gun and should have waited until we have 4 strong, sustainable teams. They got greedy expecting the bright lights of Melbourne would bring them a river of money. The same concept was applied to allowing the expansion to 18 teams....

 

[Highlander35]

The Force squad was still pretty weak when the Rebels were started. The ARU jumped the gun and should have waited until we have 4 strong, sustainable teams. They got greedy expecting the bright lights of Melbourne would bring them a river of money. The same concept was applied to allowing the expansion to 18 teams..

Pretty much. Went for the equal share of broadcast revenue in the foolish hope that everything would sort itself out reasonably quick, then doubled down in hopes that new areas = enough new money.

Fundamentally, ALL of the boards spent too much time and money trying to make a competition that suited the needs of the teams above and below themselves rather than making a sustainable, worthy and competitive league in and of itself.

And the long and the short is that the decline will continue until someone decides enough is enough. It certainly won't be the ARU though.

 

[James Pettifer]

Yes, I agree completely with all this.

Certainly the ARU has poured a lot more money into the Rebels as well but I think that is entirely out of necessity to keep them afloat than any sort of favouritism. You can guarantee that the ARU would have preferred not to have spent that money on the Rebels if their financial position had been stronger.

Out of stupidity more like it. I can't understand why the ARU didn't financial controls in place after the first additional money needed to be spent. These controls should have been made stronger the more times money needed to be invested to the point where the Rebels (and other teams in the same situation) shouldn't have been able to buy a paper clip without getting ARU approval.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

Cyclo your calls are just getting better..is this cause you're now a Kiwi?

I had no idea Cyclo was now a kiwi! Does this mean I no longer have to enunicate my vowels when I direct posts towards him? YESS!

 

[Killer]

I bet Clone wishes he had just stumped up the 5.7 mil when it was on offer. Damn the promises I got my own skin to save.
But no macro vision, no 20/20 hindsight, no knowledge of WA Rugby.
Result he is now being called a liar on national radio and imo opinion totally justified.
He also has the majority of people thinking he is incompetent and wrong.
And I bet the board is having 2nd thoughts about is this the right thing. Obviously this was an agenda pushed through by Clyne, hopefully for him and rugby he has the balls to back down.

 

[ShtinaTina]

Alan Jones, details of WF meeting with Carke and Todd Day

That information just makes me ill. Those cowboys have stuffed it up well & truely.

 

[James Pettifer]

The Force squad was still pretty weak when the Rebels were started. The ARU jumped the gun and should have waited until we have 4 strong, sustainable teams. They got greedy expecting the bright lights of Melbourne would bring them a river of money. The same concept was applied to allowing the expansion to 18 teams..

I think they had the right idea with the Rebels with regards to international players, but they needed to be better players and allowed to stick around for longer. The Rebels have lost too many players who seemed to want to stick around including Ellison, Delve and Robinson. These were all solid starters for the Rebels and Delve and Robinson basically didn't have a career after the Rebels.

The other big issue is the exodus of players. There are so many Australian Super Rugby level players playing overseas. We just don't seem to be able/willing to afford those players and instead spend our player funds on the Pococks and Genia's of the world.

18 teams did bring in lots of money. Didn't the broadcast rights expand by about $20 million per year and almost double the previous rights amount? Based on that, I can see why the ARU were happy to go to 18 teams in a stupid model.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

Voice of reason here I can see both sides of the argument however I don't see how the last 3 pages of back and forth help the situation.

The whole things sucks whether it was a conspiracy or just the easiest option who know either way it stinks and people (especially force fans) have the right to feel the ways they do.

I appreciate the support that the fans of other teams have given me and the other force fans however it will take a long time to come to term with the decision.

Telling people they should think a certain way or have that opinion isn't helpful.

Unfortunately emotions are high and people thinking is all over the place I think we should take a break and refocus on the task at hand.

Sorry to get all preachy just over this whole thing.

 

[cyclopath]

Say what? He's this guy now?

View attachment 9645

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortland_Street

Yes, like a good Ludlum novel, I also fell victim to the Barnaby Conundrum.