EOYT 2014

[Train Without a Station]

The question, then, is if a team of current English internationals would support him as well as a team of Toulon internationals. If he can thrive in one environment, can he thrive in both?

That actually raises an interesting question -- The Orcs vs Toulon, who takes it?

Well considering England won't be vastly superior to many of their opponents, I doubt it.

 

[Braveheart81]

If he's so amazing why was he just a decent international player when he did player for England?

Right bows he's just another example of a decent playing being the "form x in the world" out of France or England.

It's been 4 and a half years since he last played for England.

He's 29 now so you'd figure he's pretty much at the peak of his powers.

I think it's quite possible that he's a significantly better player right now and it's not just a case of his form currently being good or a bit of a grass is greener situation.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I think it's quite possible that he's a significantly better player right now

In isolation I would agree. When it forms a trend of this though, one must question the quality of the competition. If almost everybody who goes over there gets better, without being tested at international level, how strong must it be?

 

[mxyzptlk]

Well considering England won't be vastly superior to many of their opponents, I doubt it.

Clarify: You doubt that Armitage could thrive in the England set-up, that England could beat Toulon, or that Toulon would take England?

I'm assuming it's the first.

 

[Braveheart81]

In isolation I would agree. When it forms a trend of this though, one must question the quality of the competition. If almost everybody who goes over there gets better, without being tested at international level, how strong must it be?

If England won't select a player playing in France and Armitage wants a crack at the RWC then playing for an English team again is his only real option.

A move from the UK to France originally is more of a lateral move than going from Super Rugby to Europe. Given that he'd have played against many of his competitors in the Heineken Cup, he probably has a reasonable feel for whether he's actually a realistic chance to make their squad.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Guys

How many numbers in the EOYT squad ?

Most will pick themselves. But who are the smokeys' this year?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Clarify: You doubt that Armitage could thrive in the England set-up, that England could beat Toulon, or that Toulon would take England?

I'm assuming it's the first.

Just to clarify I mean in the England set up, he won't be part of a squad that is vastly superior to the majority of the opponents in the way Toulon is.

 

[BDA]

But who are the smokeys' this year?

With the RWC so close I cant see many smokeys being selected. I would have thought they'll take a squad with a similar make up to the RWC squad (minus injuries), so 32-33 players.

maybe Jones / Godwin, Neville might be the smokiest.

I'd like to see a guy like Paul Alo-Emile on tour, but I think that's highly unlikely. Unfortunately too late now to blood new test props.

I think we'll see Sio blooded as THP on tour.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Guys

How many numbers in the EOYT squad ?

Most will pick themselves. But who are the smokeys' this year?

Scrubber, I think the number of smokies will be determined this weekend and over the next week or so of C of C investigations.

If, for instance, the ABs put another half ton on us and it is attributed to a split of the Wallabies into pro/anti coach camps, and if the investigations identify others who received certain text messages and who have some responsibility for the way things turned out, then there could well be a whole lot more smokies than would otherwise be expected.

If the Wallabies are competitive, and maybe even win, and in doing so demonstrate that they are a cohesive group in support of their coach, then as you say, most will pick themselves. It's very much up to the players atm.

 

[BabyBlueElephant]

Played pretty well when he had a lot of good players around him.

My point is that all these players go over there and are suddenly in career best form. You need to question how much they are being challenged. They play good teams, but they also play teams which are getting relegated to D2 and newly promoted teams, whilst they're in a team full of internationals.

Well of the teams promoted last year Oyonnax were outstanding, and of the teams relegated one was Biarritz, who hosted players like Harinordoquy, Yachvili, Ngwenya who I'd say you're all fairly familiar with.

In the Top14 you've backrowers like Dusatoire, Lydiate, Gorgodze, Picamoles, Bonnaire etc its highly rich in quality. And in Europe against Saracens, Munster and Leinster he's been up against the likes of O'Mahony, Vunipola, Heaslip, Brown etc. He's shown himself well infront of more than decent internationals in this paragraph. More than well, I'd go as far as dealt with at ease.

Anyway even as a non England fan I still kinda want this guy to get another English call up. Sometimes when you know a player is going to impact a game that much you want to see him come through. A bit like Burgess if he comes good.

 

[Aussie D]

Does anyone else think we may be better served long-term if we rest some of our key players for the EOYT to give them an off season to freshen up with the added bonus of developing some depth and seeing if others are up to test level?

Players who I think should be rested are Slipper, Moore, TPN, Kepu, Hooper, Palu, Genia, Cooper, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Folau, Robinson. I know some of these guys are / haven been injured and have had a 'rest' whilst recovering but my idea would allow them to have an 'off season' to help build their bodies, strengthen and freshen them up in the world cup year.

Players I would look to include would be Toby Smith, Scott Sio and Pek for LHP; Finger, Hanson, plus 1 for hooker; Weekes, Ryan, PAE for THP; Hodgson and Gill / McMahon for openside; Higgers plus one for 8; Phipps, White plus one (Frisby ?) for half; keep the current fly-half rotation (minus Quade); bring in Speight, Morahan, Lucas for wing / fullback.

Is this a worthwhile idea or could it lead to arguments of devaluing test rugby?

 

[No4918]

Is this a worthwhile idea or could it lead to arguments of devaluing test rugby?

It definitely devalues test rugby. It would reduce revenue as well and with about 8 matches to go before the RWC it doesn't give combinations the time they need. The instafix is not going to happen.

I do think something needs to be done though. Rescheduling of the TRC to allow for a greater break before the EOYT and reducing the EOYT to 4 games maximum are two options. But the revenue comes into the last one, more games = more money. No need to explain why that is important.

 

[Braveheart81]

Is this a worthwhile idea or could it lead to arguments of devaluing test rugby?

I think it would be met with complete disdain if it was anymore than one or two players being rested.

Australian fans react poorly when the touring side in June doesn't bring out some of their biggest names (even if those names are injured and/or about three years past their best and struggling to make the team).

The year before the RWC is probably the only time you could get away with it though.

 

[Slim 293]

Is this a worthwhile idea or could it lead to arguments of devaluing test rugby?

Based on recent performances I think most of our players need more time playing together.............

 

[Highlander35]

Kepu and Slipper should be rested. I'm adamant about that. Extra 4 weeks break and no travel.

Apart from that, don't think anybody's been run into the ground enough, but is not already injured.

 

[Slim 293]

Kepu and Slipper should be rested. I'm adamant about that. Extra 4 weeks break and no travel.

Apart from that, don't think anybody's been run into the ground enough, but is not already injured.

Certainly guys who have been putting in a lot of minutes this year need to be managed well...............

And with Sio being injured for much of the test season he should get plenty of game time to get back up to speed.............

 

[Viking]

Does anyone else think we may be better served long-term if we rest some of our key players for the EOYT to give them an off season to freshen up with the added bonus of developing some depth and seeing if others are up to test level?

Players who I think should be rested are Slipper, Moore, TPN, Kepu, Hooper, Palu, Genia, Cooper, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Folau, Robinson. I know some of these guys are / haven been injured and have had a 'rest' whilst recovering but my idea would allow them to have an 'off season' to help build their bodies, strengthen and freshen them up in the world cup year.

Players I would look to include would be Toby Smith, Scott Sio and Pek for LHP; Finger, Hanson, plus 1 for hooker; Weekes, Ryan, PAE for THP; Hodgson and Gill / McMahon for openside; Higgers plus one for 8; Phipps, White plus one (Frisby ?) for half; keep the current fly-half rotation (minus Quade); bring in Speight, Morahan, Lucas for wing / fullback.

Is this a worthwhile idea or could it lead to arguments of devaluing test rugby?

A bit extreme I think. I would rotate Falou, Slipper, Hooper, Kepu, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on EOYT. They are too valuable to leave behind.

I would be putting Cooper and Genia back into the wallaby environment as soon as possible, they definitely should go on tour. I think they will benefit more from the wallaby environment then a pre-season.

Palu, TPN, Moore with very recent injury probably better off with pre-seasons.

 

[BDA]

The problem with resting guys is that you don't create a winning culture in the team. Resting our top props in particular would be a dangerous game to play because we run the risk of encouraging perceptions among referees that we are a poor scrummaging team. The result will be that every 50/50 call in the RWC will go against us.

I think the sensible time to rest our key players is:-
1) during the 2015 Super Rugby Season - make the Super teams rest the key wallaby players in various games throughout the season - I'd argue that they should be Aus Pool Derby games so as to not affect our performance against the NZ and SA teams.
2) during the RC.

 

[Braveheart81]

The ARU should hire Michael Foley as a consultant to work out a resting schedule for Wallabies from Super Rugby games next season. He's an expert.

 

[daz]

The ARU should hire Michael Foley as a consultant to work out a resting schedule for Wallabies from Super Rugby games next season. He's an expert.

Can you still be an expert if you actually get it mind-blowingly wrong?

Asking for a friend.