You were comparing QC (Quade Cooper) at the start of his test career (when he was 20 after a year of pro rugby) with Foley at the start of his career as a 25 year old with years of pro rugby under his belt.
Caps don't enter into it.
England v Australia
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You were comparing QC (Quade Cooper) at the start of his test career (when he was 20 after a year of pro rugby) with Foley at the start of his career as a 25 year old with years of pro rugby under his belt.
Caps don't enter into it.
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Well, actually I was pointing out the improvement Quade has shown over a career that now spans 6 years at Test level, as a foil to the argument bandied about by the experts here that Foley has reached his "ceiling" and doesn't deserve his spot.
Well, they fucking do. According to the websites of the teams they play for:
TEST CAPS: Quade 53 (debut 2008), Foley 18 (debut 2013)
SUPER CAPS: Quade 100 (debut 2007), Foley 48 (debut 2012)
So while Quade was good enough to start at a younger age in top level pro rugby (Foley's 7s stint was around 2010/11), it has served him well in terms of experience.
If you're good enough to play 150 games of professional rugby over 8 years, you're probably going to have needed a fair bit of improvement in that time to stay there. Particularly as Quade was tossed by Deans and effectively missed a year of Wallaby games.
So I'm not slagging Quade - far from it. I'm using him as a great example of how you can't judge someone's career on form right at the start of it. Otherwise most people here would have chucked him on the tip right after RWC2011.
Lorenzo
Colin Windon (37)
It's more like saying your son is struggling with year 4 and the end of term 1 in year 4.
The fact that players might improve with time and experience doesn't mean you can't sometimes safely conclude that they will be never be quite good enough.
I would likely be better in my 20th test than my first, but would certainly never be good enough. Shane Drahm, Dan Halangahu, Manny Edmonds, Shaun Berne and Brock James would probably improve with 20 tests experience but I'd say most would agree they would never have been good enough.
You don't need to be a Reds homer to note that Quade has significantly higher upside which has been clear from very early on in his test starting career. You more or less do need to be a Waratahs homer to deny it.
Absolutely Quade has more upside right now. Whether his form is better right now is not really certain. He wasn't good against the Barbarians, he had an excellent cameo against France and his stints in the other games were alright. In my opinion he certainly didn't demand a start. It would have been interesting to see against England but at the same time he got 35 minutes so we saw plenty of him.
Whether Cooper having a greater upside to Foley is a permanent situation is uncertain.
After 20 tests no one would have said that Rob Simmons would comfortably be our first choice lock by the time he got to 50 tests.
If you like, Cooper has taken the opposite path to becoming a better test player. He started out being too risk taking and too flamboyant and has toned his game back as he's matured to limit the risky plays he attempts and in turn cut out costly mistakes. He has also greatly improved his defence over the last couple of years.
Cooper has always had a huge upside to his game and on song can completely take a team apart. With that, you'd have to say that he's also had a big downside to his game when it goes wrong. He's had a couple of 'mares through his test career that have derailed the team. That is part and parcel of a playmaker who takes more risks.
Foley is reliable and more conservative. His kicking game needs to improve but should do in time as should his defence. His game relies on playing flat to the line and taking on the defence. His direct running and drawing players has worked well with a ball playing 12 outside him and a winger coming off his inside shoulder.
If Cooper and Foley have similar Super Rugby seasons in 2015 I'd probably start Cooper. If Foley appears to be in better form, I'd stick with him.
Whether Cooper having a greater upside to Foley is a permanent situation is uncertain.
After 20 tests no one would have said that Rob Simmons would comfortably be our first choice lock by the time he got to 50 tests.
If you like, Cooper has taken the opposite path to becoming a better test player. He started out being too risk taking and too flamboyant and has toned his game back as he's matured to limit the risky plays he attempts and in turn cut out costly mistakes. He has also greatly improved his defence over the last couple of years.
Cooper has always had a huge upside to his game and on song can completely take a team apart. With that, you'd have to say that he's also had a big downside to his game when it goes wrong. He's had a couple of 'mares through his test career that have derailed the team. That is part and parcel of a playmaker who takes more risks.
Foley is reliable and more conservative. His kicking game needs to improve but should do in time as should his defence. His game relies on playing flat to the line and taking on the defence. His direct running and drawing players has worked well with a ball playing 12 outside him and a winger coming off his inside shoulder.
If Cooper and Foley have similar Super Rugby seasons in 2015 I'd probably start Cooper. If Foley appears to be in better form, I'd stick with him.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
I just hope both Cooper and Foley remain injury free next year. We are going to need both of them come RWC15.
I have a feeling that the team with the greatest depth will win Bill. How many #10's did New Zealand go through at RWC11?
Let's wait and see who is left after Team Rehab Selectors have their impact on the players during TRC and Super 15's before we get too hot under the collar about who is in the starting XV.
I have a feeling that the team with the greatest depth will win Bill. How many #10's did New Zealand go through at RWC11?
Let's wait and see who is left after Team Rehab Selectors have their impact on the players during TRC and Super 15's before we get too hot under the collar about who is in the starting XV.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I thought Cooper was really good on Saturday.
Everything happened with more time. He was rusty and he got hammered at least once as a result but if he can stay healthy rustiness will not be an issue for RWC.
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Fuck.
I've just managed to sit down and watch the game up until the first Pommy scrum.
Fuck!
I'm not sure whether its the absolute Gallic indifference of Garces, his sheer incompetence, or the fact that in French rugby they just let the chips fly and fall where they may, then decide the team with the ball wins.
But fuck's sake that Pommy loosehead packed down in a manner that even Bill Young would wince at - he might as well have used his arse.
If that is the strength of England's scrum, then we've got zero to worry about next year.
Joe Marler is a fucking awful scrummager and Kepu should have headlocked him and dropped him on the floor face first. Sure, give away a penalty, but teach the fluffybunny a lesson.
I've just managed to sit down and watch the game up until the first Pommy scrum.
Fuck!
I'm not sure whether its the absolute Gallic indifference of Garces, his sheer incompetence, or the fact that in French rugby they just let the chips fly and fall where they may, then decide the team with the ball wins.
But fuck's sake that Pommy loosehead packed down in a manner that even Bill Young would wince at - he might as well have used his arse.
If that is the strength of England's scrum, then we've got zero to worry about next year.
Joe Marler is a fucking awful scrummager and Kepu should have headlocked him and dropped him on the floor face first. Sure, give away a penalty, but teach the fluffybunny a lesson.
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
25 minutes in, and I've stopped watching due to the following realisation:
@Shiggins has got a point
Examples:
Marler not packing straight
Call against us for "pre-engage" when it was pretty clear that England bumped us
Robshaw with both hands on the ground for about two seconds, then tries to attack the ball, given the penalty because our player was holding on.
Knowing the result, and having seen the first 25 minutes of refereeing, I just can't imagine its going to become any more watchable.
@Shiggins has got a point
Examples:
Marler not packing straight
Call against us for "pre-engage" when it was pretty clear that England bumped us
Robshaw with both hands on the ground for about two seconds, then tries to attack the ball, given the penalty because our player was holding on.
Knowing the result, and having seen the first 25 minutes of refereeing, I just can't imagine its going to become any more watchable.
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
And To'omua was having a good game - not sure about the flick off the ground that surrendered 40m of territory, but he was picking holes in that England rush defence like no-one's business.
It was particularly when we ran wide and pulled their backs in, then got the forwards trying the rush defence the other way.
Phipps' step-passing was a bit impediment to us scoring though. He seems to have gotten less effective as the tour went on.
As for those criticising AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to pass it - both he and Speight were in exactly the same situation in the opening period, and did exactly the same thing. The pass was NOT ON and so he held it.
It was particularly when we ran wide and pulled their backs in, then got the forwards trying the rush defence the other way.
Phipps' step-passing was a bit impediment to us scoring though. He seems to have gotten less effective as the tour went on.
As for those criticising AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to pass it - both he and Speight were in exactly the same situation in the opening period, and did exactly the same thing. The pass was NOT ON and so he held it.
Forcefield
Ken Catchpole (46)
Only he didn't 
. He spilled it forward. Right decision though.
. He spilled it forward. Right decision though.
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
By the last game I'd say Phipps, Izzy, Hooper, Slipper and Kepu, and maybe Foley, were absolutely stuffed. Whether they'd played too long having come off preety much a full Super season each or whether they had been training too hard, or a combination of both, none of them was at his best against the Poms.
Forcefield
Ken Catchpole (46)
Smart arse.
You're just shitty because Hooper winning the first penalty of the game shoots down your "HOOPER NEVER GETS TURNOVERS! BRING HODGO IN!!!" argument
I've never made that argument. I wouldn't have selected Hodgson over Hooper on the Spring Tour. I am a fan of the bring Hodgson on for the final 10 argument, but to be fair the last three games Hooper has played above and beyond in the final 10.
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Fair call. Hopefully the workload is adjusted next year.
We still had the tendency to fling it into the teeth of a rush defence e.g. Speight got cleaned up after two long passes from Phipps and To'omua.
If we'd run a couple of inside lines there were about three more tries out there.
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
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I personally find the AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) not passing criticism well overdone as at 13 he is one of the best players to spot and exploit a break opportunity....he was one of the best players against England as rated by all the expert pundits...as opposed to all the armchair critics
If AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was not around for his 100+ tests the wallabies would have had a much worse record....give it a break he deserves some credit for what he has offered the wallabies so get off your soap box and acknowledge at least what he has done for the wallabies...
HighPlainsDrifter
Jimmy Flynn (14)
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) makes significant busts and draws defenders , I don't think the passes were on ....when you have someone breaking the line in that fashion it makes sense to keep the ball in play and apply pressure ...and that's where the real problem arises . We don't seem to be putting the blow torch to the opposition , if we can work harder for quicker ball and be much more persuasive with the referees on that score the tide will turn . Just put a muzzle on Phipps ( as I think it is a turnoff for the referees ) and get Cheika to encourage the captain to be more assertive in that sense and that means no wry smiles , try shock and disgust for a change .
USARugger
John Thornett (49)
Need to mix up the "read" we force the defense to make on the inside runs off of Foley too, especially when they were largely working well during the match. Can't just be Horne 80% of the time or it becomes too easy to defend.
@HighPlainsDrifter The biggest difference between what AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) did against the English and what Kuridrani did for most of the tour is that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) made lots of meters in contact (which often left him with 3 Englishmen on him as he was going down making the offload pretty much a non-option) whereas Kuridrani was making big meters after contact (i.e., breaking the line clean or at least getting through the defender allowing him to release his arms) and by getting through the front line he was drawing only 1 defender head on and maybe a cover defender and then releasing an outside back into space or into a 1-on-1, which should be what any test back lives for.
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) showed he's still a very strong option at 13 and is an invaluable asset to the Wallabies even if he isn't a perfect player (nobody really is now that Dan Carter hardly plays). His pound-for-pound power when he runs the ball is incredibly impressive and he put is a good shift against England.
'Drani should probably still come right back into it barring an out of character drop in form or any other injuries during the Brum's Super Rugby campaign. I'd say AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Tevita play fairly similar styles/roles at 13 (Kuridrani shoots out on defense more, though) and with similar intensity, but Kuridrani is just a genetic freak on top of all of that.
In regards to Phipps' yapping.. what happened to Poker Face?
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
I've only been complaining about this every week. ARU get what they deserved when they schedule 15 Test seasons and don't throw any easy ones in there. Those guys would've played more minutes than anyone in world rugby in 2014. Cheika never rotated throughout the Super Rugby season, the Tahs played an extra 2 games and none of them ever got a break for the Wallabies. It was madness starting them in the last game, I'm surprised they lasted so long.
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