England v Australia, Sunday 19 November 2:00am AEDT

[Alex Sharpe]

It's a hard game to analyse as a Wallabies fan. My feelings are very mixed.

We were without Coleman and Folau. It was a dreary Twickers, with driving rain. It was a game we should have lost... and we did.

England are a very good side. Their game plan was perfect for the conditions, but to our credit we put them under pressure time and time again.

Our defence was good, especially on the scramble. Our scrum was great. Our forward play was good. Our handling was poor, but in those conditions it's forgiveable.

We had a few moments to reach out and take the game, but we just couldn't. It's not the fault of any one player or coach. The bounce of the ball went England's way, but they were the better team. We had our chances but couldn't take them.

England are a better team than us, for sure. But despite the scoreline I think we're closer to them than where we were last year. Which is not that satisfying, but it is something.
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Barbarian I really find it hard to agree that the English are a better team than us. I just feel that we are letting them win games that they really shouldn't. Even in the June test series last year, we scored more tries than them in 2 of the 3 tests, yet we lost 3-0. it's a constant theme that we compete with and surpass them in a many areas of the game, yet do not get any yield on the scoreboard for it. I certainly do not think that we are getting outclassed by them. The test overnight was the clearest example.

 

[KOB1987]

Barbarian I really find it hard to agree that the English are a better team than us. I just feel that we are letting them win games that they really shouldn't. Even in the June test series last year, we scored more tries than them in 2 of the 3 tests, yet we lost 3-0. it's a constant theme that we compete with and surpass them in a many areas of the game, yet do not get any yield on the scoreboard for it. I certainly do not think that we are getting outclassed by them. The test overnight was the clearest example.

100% agree. There's a very fine line between the top 5 - make that the top 6 - teams in the world. The only game of the past five against us that England have won on merit was the 2nd test in June last year, the other four could have gone either way.

 

[TSR]

With regards to who was better/who deserved to win etc - it may seen a simplistic arguement but, at the end of the day, that is why there is a score board.

You could argue that, save for a heap of dropped ball at the wrong time, Wales looked better for good parts of last weeks game. But they ultimately didn’t take their chances and we did.

Last night, the situation was reversed. At a few key moments last night England were more hungry, more composed and/or played smarter.

The kick try is a clear example. Leading up to the try half a dozen things could have gone slightly differently. In the end, it came down to the fact that Beale assumes until too late that the ball would go out. Daly chased hard from the outset in case it didn’t. The try wasn’t luck - it was reward for effort.

 

[Lost]

Just a curiosity but where would Aust Rugby be if Eddie Jones had been coaching for the last 10 years? Hard to imagine it would have been worse off. If this gets too much emotionally for Cheika, whose passion I admire, is there any prospect of Eddie coming back?


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[barbarian]

Barbarian I really find it hard to agree that the English are a better team than us. I just feel that we are letting them win games that they really shouldn't. Even in the June test series last year, we scored more tries than them in 2 of the 3 tests, yet we lost 3-0. it's a constant theme that we compete with and surpass them in a many areas of the game, yet do not get any yield on the scoreboard for it. I certainly do not think that we are getting outclassed by them. The test overnight was the clearest example.

Well unfortunately 5 losses to them in 18 months tells you all you need to know - they are better than us. Sure, the gap is narrow. Sure, we could win more games. But we don't.

My reason for slight optimism is that of all of those five games, this to me was the hardest for us. Long, tough year, undermanned, horrible conditions. You're right in the fact that the story was the same as the other games, so I'm far from thrilled, but the effort was there and I can't help feel like we're getting closer.

 

[Highlander35]

Chieka Chieka Chieka. Is the coaching ability worth the embarrassment for RA?

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[TSR]

Chieka Chieka Chieka. Is the coaching ability worth the embarrassment for RA?

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What do you want him to do? He is clearly an emotional guy. He has the cameras pointed on him to pick up every reaction. Despite constant provoking he didn’t actually blame the ref and he specifically said that the Wallabies has to work on what they could control.

At the end of the day he is entitled to be an emotional guy who sees things through the prism of his role.

I have felt plenty of his previous post match performances have been regrettable but I think you are being harsh on him for last night.

I note that at least a few commentators this morning think he handled the situation reasonably well.

 

[Micheal]

Did Cheika really do anything too embarrassing last night?

He's passionate in the coaching box but I certainly prefer that to Hansens robot-esque demeanour. I really don't think the national coach being animated during the game is the worst thing in the world.

Walking to the pitch he had a few words (key word: few. Very few) with fans who were giving him a lot more than they received. Again, not fussed.

During the post game press conference he was all class and refused to get dragged into the topics and conversations that the media desperately wanted.

I think most of those who dislike Cheika often do themselves a disservice by not watching the press conferences in full and often actively look for reasons to justify their dislike of him.

Otherwise, I'm speechless about the game. Absolutely gutted to be honest.

 

[KOB1987]

Chieka Chieka Chieka. Is the coaching ability worth the embarrassment for RA?

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Media media media. They bait him and replay the embarrassing parts 1000 times. They do it because it's marketable and they'd do exactly the same thing to Eddie and Steve if/when things started going against them. Eddie is the perfect candidate and I can assure you they are all waiting for an opportunity to pounce.

 

[wamberal]

Just a curiosity but where would Aust Rugby be if Eddie Jones had been coaching for the last 10 years? Hard to imagine it would have been worse off.

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RU serious? The mind boggles. There are very few coaches in the world who can keep the standard up year after year after year.


Eddie deserved to get the chop. Then he destroyed the Queensland Reds, in one short season. Maybe he has learned from his mistakes, but never forget that he is now in charge of the wealthiest national team, he came into the job when expectations were rock bottom, and he has done pretty well.


When, and if, he beats a full strength All Blacks he will have proved his credentials. Beating a Wallabies side in your own backyard without two of our very best players, a side who played with 14 men for a considerable period, and 13 for a while, and which had two tries (fairly) disallowed which really should have been scored, is not all that wonderful an achievement.

 

[Up the Guts]

Well unfortunately 5 losses to them in 18 months tells you all you need to know - they are better than us. Sure, the gap is narrow. Sure, we could win more games. But we don't.

My reason for slight optimism is that of all of those five games, this to me was the hardest for us. Long, tough year, undermanned, horrible conditions. You're right in the fact that the story was the same as the other games, so I'm far from thrilled, but the effort was there and I can't help feel like we're getting closer.

I'm more confident of beating NZ going into a game than I am England. Not because I think England is a better team just that they are more suited to nullifying our weaknesses. NZ like to throw around the ball and play footy which suits us because if we can get a quick turnover then there are opportunities to score points. Where our lighter athletic forwards can quickly capitalise on turnovers against a team like NZ they're not as effective in the long grind against the big corn fed English forwards.

Also I reckon it's easier to say "yeah the All Blacks are better than us" when you see 23 ridiculously skilled guys running in tries from any part of the field. Much harder to admit that a few beefy boys with a couple of guys kicking the ball away are better than us.

 

[Viking]

It's a hard game to analyse as a Wallabies fan. My feelings are very mixed.

We were without Coleman and Folau. It was a dreary Twickers, with driving rain. It was a game we should have lost... and we did.

England are a very good side. Their game plan was perfect for the conditions, but to our credit we put them under pressure time and time again.

Our defence was good, especially on the scramble. Our scrum was great. Our forward play was good. Our handling was poor, but in those conditions it's forgiveable.

We had a few moments to reach out and take the game, but we just couldn't. It's not the fault of any one player or coach. The bounce of the ball went England's way, but they were the better team. We had our chances but couldn't take them.

England are a better team than us, for sure. But despite the scoreline I think we're closer to them than where we were last year. Which is not that satisfying, but it is something.
.

I think we can see positives out of this one and at least some satisfaction. Make no doubts about it I think the team we put on the park was missing a few key players and certainly far from our strongest, yet I think we could have and probably should have won with the same squad. Coleman, Folau, Dempsy would make a big difference. It would also mean we don't need to play Kerevi at 12. We held our own at the area's England were meant to be dominate. Like the Scrum, and whilst they did win the kicking battle it wasn't so dominate that they were scoring points from it. We genuinely created chances and could have won that. Bounce of the ball didn't go our way this time. All of England's tries were pretty much against the run of the play. The impact from the bench does seem a worry. But I honestly don't think England are the dominate Force the scoreboard may indicate.

 

[Gnostic]

What do you want him to do? He is clearly an emotional guy. He has the cameras pointed on him to pick up every reaction. Despite constant provoking he didn’t actually blame the ref and he specifically said that the Wallabies has to work on what they could control.

At the end of the day he is entitled to be an emotional guy who sees things through the prism of his role.

I have felt plenty of his previous post match performances have been regrettable but I think you are being harsh on him for last night.

I note that at least a few commentators this morning think he handled the situation reasonably well.

Act with some diplomacy and not be a total tool. He is now a justifiable target of parody and derision through his own actions. I can respect passion and emotion, but is he a child or a professional coach. See my post a bit later about unaddressed flaws with the coaching of this side about what he should be doing and what the genesis of these losses have been and this year as last must be rated as a failure. So he has one of the worst losing records of a Wallabies coach, two failure seasons and bad behaviour. If the ARU had any managerial standing left they would be questioning his position, but they have also been rendered redundant by their total mismanagement up to this point.

 

[Viking]

Barbarian I really find it hard to agree that the English are a better team than us. I just feel that we are letting them win games that they really shouldn't. Even in the June test series last year, we scored more tries than them in 2 of the 3 tests, yet we lost 3-0. it's a constant theme that we compete with and surpass them in a many areas of the game, yet do not get any yield on the scoreboard for it. I certainly do not think that we are getting outclassed by them. The test overnight was the clearest example.

I agree with this. England seem to fine a way to score points where we simply don't. Frustrating to watch. At least the All Blacks clearly outclass us in most area's of the game so you understand where the loss comes from. It always feels like we lost due to our own accord rather then England winning it by being the more skilful team. If only Korobiete dived on that ball and slide for the try (for the Hooper offside) If only Korobiete's try was awarded if only the ball clearly hit the touch line (or if only Beale didn't give up). So many key turning points from small errors (with big ramifications).

 

[TSR]

Act with some diplomacy and not be a total tool. He is now a justifiable target of parody and derision through his own actions. I can respect passion and emotion, but is he a child or a professional coach. See my post a bit later about unaddressed flaws with the coaching of this side about what he should be doing and what the genesis of these losses have been and this year as last must be rated as a failure. So he has one of the worst losing records of a Wallabies coach, two failure seasons and bad behaviour. If the ARU had any managerial standing left they would be questioning his position, but they have also been rendered redundant by their total mismanagement up to this point.

Gnostic - I look forward to your later post, as I always do.

I get that he is a victim of his own past behaviour - and I would agree he has acted petulantly in previous media conferences.

But I think you are being harsh on his behaviour this morning. Do we really expect every well paid coach to have a stoic demeanour.

I just think we are starting to hold people to impossible standards. He is human. Last night he was frustrated.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Did Cheika really do anything too embarrassing last night?

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He mouthed "fucking cheats" over the Hooper no try. Thats embarrassing on so many levels: hooper is in front of the kicker and advances without waiting to be put on side - he knows it because he puts his hands up. But this isn't the primary school yard and putting your hands up does not make you invisible. So Cheika doesn't know the laws. But also, in his view there's more than one cheat: that explains his use of the plural and since he doesn't differentiate between the cheats they must all have some common characteristic - what is it? Does he mean the poms? the refs? all the TMOs? What is this group of cheats? And in what way did they cheat? the second embarrassing thing he did last night was continue to select Simmons.

 

[Viking]

RU serious? The mind boggles. There are very few coaches in the world who can keep the standard up year after year after year.


Eddie deserved to get the chop. Then he destroyed the Queensland Reds, in one short season. Maybe he has learned from his mistakes, but never forget that he is now in charge of the wealthiest national team, he came into the job when expectations were rock bottom, and he has done pretty well.


When, and if, he beats a full strength All Blacks he will have proved his credentials. Beating a Wallabies side in your own backyard without two of our very best players, a side who played with 14 men for a considerable period, and 13 for a while, and which had two tries (fairly) disallowed which really should have been scored, is not all that wonderful an achievement.

He's beaten us 5 times in a row. A turnaround from us kicking them out of their own RWC. And let's be honest, most of the wins were won on tactics rather then skill or player ability. England play to their strengths and that's down to the coaching. Pretty sure they have also won the 6 nations a few times too. Let's give credit where credit is due. Eddie is doing a damn fine job of coaching. And even though they are apparently the richest national side, I'm the guy accross the ditch at the All Blacks has it way easy with a solid grass roots system, home competition, 5 well coached and performing super xv sides, creating an almost endless pool of depth.

 

[wamberal]

Frankly, if he did say that, I would be happy to see him shown the door.

 

[Gnostic]

The genesis of this loss is in the woeful defensive structures that the team is playing under. Unlike others I do not think Folau would have made any difference, Coleman certainly would have secured the scrum and breakdown better, but overall the loss is down to defence. The bullshit they sold themselves last week about their "D" is what they have been telling themselves all year with no acknowledgment of the repeated flaws.

Easy metres are continuously conceded in the medfield and the flanks, due in large part to the constant shuffling and F^%$%ing around of players moving all over the shop, simply because far too many of them are incapable of executing the core skills required of their position at test level and in some cases at any level.

The result is a huge number of line breaks and the scrambling defence, perhaps the best it has ever been is why they do not concede even more tries. But it results in placing the defenders under extreme pressure and ends up giving away a lot of penalties and 4 yellow cards in two games.

Individual matters such as the ball touching the line while Beale jogged and watched it etc, will be questioned but the issues remain the fundamental defensive issues which were shown all season. Individual players get lots of blame and I have mentioned it as well, but as Grey showed with the Tahs this year the structures he has produced since the 2015 RWC have been rubbish.

Gagger said a few weeks ago on the Podcast about the gauge of the success of this season would be redemption against the Poms. They failed in spectacular style and after watching the Scots game I loss against them is a reasonable expectation, Scotland just needs to attack intelligently and exploit the Wallabies woeful defensive structures.

This season for the Wallabies, follows the managerial incompetence (to the point of corruption as they have taken money for what they have done - which should be regarded a fraud for posing as professional managers) of the ARU and the total failure of the Australian Super sides.

 

[Quick Hands]

On watching the replay this morning.

While the Wallabies did some things quite well, the score was a fair reflection of the game.

While there were some odd decisions, the referee had no impact on the result or the magnitude of the loss.

The stubborn persistence with Foley as first choice kicker is perplexing.

Wallabies need a better kicking game when they play in those wet conditions.

England and NZ clearly the best two teams in world rugby at the moment.

Scotland have improved as have Fiji.

Wales have regressed.