England is coming!

[USARugger]

but if anyone imagines a coach teaching a prop to go at that angle, I would think it best to just let you think there is any advantage in it.

Worked pretty well for the Lions.

Nobody is discrediting the Wallabies scrum. Kepu turned himself into one of the best THPs in the world over the last few years and it was awesome to see. Holmes, Sio, and Slipper all followed on a similar trajectory and our scrum is easily better than it's been in a decade.

The angling crap is just something very apparent in the game of Marler/M. Vunipola when they are wearing white.

 

[Dan54]

Hell don't get me wrong USA, I know almost all looseheads will try and go in a bit,especially on opposition ball when ref is usually on other side, all I saying I don't believe anyone will try and go in that far. Anyway we will agree to perhaps see things a little differently . Anyone who thinks all front rows don't have their own little tricks that most of don't know about including Wallabies and All Blacks etc are probably living in dream world. One of the most illuminating evenings I had was sitting in a pub with mate, and we were joined by a couple of props (one test, one super) and they were just laughing to each other tricks different players (including themselves ) used.

 

[Gagger]

Geez Groucho, you fellas are just not prepared to give Wallaby front row credit are you, I still think Marler has been done in that scrum, he has got no power going forward, but if anyone imagines a coach teaching a prop to go at that angle, I would think it best to just let you think there is any advantage in it. I know EVERY loosehead tries to come and put the tighthead under pressure, but if he doesn't succeed and tighthead gets onto his inside shoulder he will get turned out like that. I say give credit to Wallaby front row where it is deserved.

In truth , I'd say both happened. The Wallabies pretty much knew what Marler (and the back 5 behind him) would try on and knew how they'd fight it - by shearing his connection and driving through. In effect, Marler sets up his own demise.

The biggest giveaway is Robshaw's lack of any bind on his second row (illegal) at set up. He binds purely on Marler so they can angle out. If he gets under Kepu the rest of the pommy pack will swing around and look to drive through Kepu to make it look like they've got ascendancy.

That doesn't happen through Kepu's strength and the drive from the Aus pack who make Marler pay by shearing him off.

I was astounded at how much the Pommy pack rested on that tactic and how much of the pommy game plan rested on penalties from the scrum. In retrospect was much higher risk than crazy ball in hand.

 

[the sabanator]

Is Mario Itoje like a Lopeti Timani who can jump?

No that sells him well short. I don't think any Australian player is a good comparison, but if anyone maybe Scott Fardy but a No. 1 lineout option.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

In truth , I'd say both happened. The Wallabies pretty much knew what Marler (and the back 5 behind him) would try on and knew how they'd fight it - by shearing his connection and driving through. In effect, Marler sets up his own demise.

The biggest giveaway is Robshaw's lack of any bind on his second row (illegal) at set up. He binds purely on Marler so they can angle out. If he gets under Kepu the rest of the pommy pack will swing around and look to drive through Kepu to make it look like they've got ascendancy.

That doesn't happen through Kepu's strength and the drive from the Aus pack who make Marler pay by shearing him off.

I was astounded at how much the Pommy pack rested on that tactic and how much of the pommy game plan rested on penalties from the scrum. In retrospect was much higher risk than crazy ball in hand.

Yeah they had absolutely nothing else did they? Once we started belting them at the breakdown it was all over. The shame of it was that they had some serious talent out in that backline and they opened us up a few times too. They'll be considerably better this series though. Both sides will win at least one test I reckon. It'll be very tight.

 

[boyo]

How far into matches before Hartley is carded?

You could run a book, if you are so inclined.

 

[USARugger]

His disciplinary record in Tests is pretty good.

 

[Highlander35]

No that sells him well short. I don't think any Australian player is a good comparison, but if anyone maybe Scott Fardy but a No. 1 lineout option.

Plus he's a genuine lock that can cover 6 rather than a 4/6 hybrid.

He's a bloody brilliant player, and he'll potentially have 3 World Cups at peak, plus maybe sneak in for one at the end of his career. He'll hurt everybody else for a long time.

 

[Groucho]

Geez Groucho, you fellas are just not prepared to give Wallaby front row credit are you, I still think Marler has been done in that scrum, he has got no power going forward, but if anyone imagines a coach teaching a prop to go at that angle, I would think it best to just let you think there is any advantage in it. I know EVERY loosehead tries to come and put the tighthead under pressure, but if he doesn't succeed and tighthead gets onto his inside shoulder he will get turned out like that. I say give credit to Wallaby front row where it is deserved.

I'm prepared to give the Wallaby scrum plenty of credit. They managed to get on top of the England scrum, despite Marler boring in, up until the time Marler started being penalised for it.

But they didn't make Marler bore in by some application of the black arts. Boring in is part of the black arts. It's deliberate cheating, and weaker scrums have been doing it since I was a wee sprocket. Including, of course, some famously dodgy Wallaby scrums of the past.

Some props use it as the primary offensive weapon. Step forward Martin Castrogiovanni. If you really think Casto adopts that position in every scrum because he's being turned inside out by every prop he encounters, then perhaps we'd best just let you keep on thinking there's no advantage in it. Castro does it precisely up to the point allowed by the ref of the day, and no more.

I remember Richard Loe having a particularly good spray over Castro after an All Blacks game a few years ago, specifically on this point.

 

[Groucho]

Richard Loe on Castro (and everyone else within range):

Like everyone else, I was a bit gobsmacked to hear Paddy O'Brien giving referee Stu Dickinson a bollocking after that dreadful test match in Italy.

Paddy, ever since he has been head of referees for the IRB, has been a feisty little rooster - protecting his chickens (his referees) against all comers. This time, however, he gave poor old Dickinson a real rucking.

And he was right. Dickinson's interpretations were appalling. There was no question the Italian prop Martin Castrogiovanni was boring in - an illegal manoeuvre which should have been penalised.

The things is, I don't think the All Blacks, the scrum coach and even Paddy himself can get away unscathed either.

I'm not going to say a word against Wyatt Crockett - he's a good, young prop and part of the reason he is an All Black is his mobility and his work-rate round the field. He's not the best scrummager we have but that will come, provided he gets time to do so and he isn't sacrificed after that debacle.

But I think scrum coach Mike Cron has a bit to answer for. There are ways to combat a prop boring in but the All Black front row didn't seem to know what they were.

Crockett got screwed; exposed. In 2003, when I was helping John Mitchell and Robbie Deans with the All Black scrum, they'd experienced trouble with that slippery customer, Bill Young, of Australia. He was forever boring in and disrupting things and got away with a lot. I showed his opposite of the time, Greg Somerville, how to counter it by placement of the feet, getting in tighter to get a good hit on and other methods.

I won't go into too much detail here because this will start to look like a coaching manual but, believe me, there are things you can do. The All Blacks did none of them that I could see.

Another remedy is what might be termed "corrective therapy". I know that has gone out of the game these days and fair enough - but I was still surprised no one in the All Blacks had a forceful conversation with Castrogiovanni that didn't involve any words.

I know, I know - anyone doing so would be carded. But Tialata got yellow carded anyway in Dickinson's confused way of dealing with things - so what's the difference?

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/richard-loe/news/article.cfm?a_id=227&objectid=10610797

 

[Gnostic]

Groucho I won't quote it but other international refs came out post retirement and stated that Paddy was wrong and Stuart was right.

Apart from that the fiasco compromised O'Brien, a former Police Officer, with his visit to the ABs and apology to them in breach of all good practice to maintain impartiality. I note his former profession, the same as Stuart BTW, because he would have known of the absolute requirement to maintain one's integrity at all times and how that can be compromised with such actions. So statements from a compromised referee, who had a coloured past as a referee are nothing to support in that particular example.

As for Richard Loe, the cheap shot thug, if he told me the sky was blue I'd go and have a look for myself and still tell him to Go get %$#%$^. His "other methods" would have involved tackling a player on his back on the ground with his forearm to the face or gouging the eyes of his own team mate.

 

[Groucho]

All true, Gnostic. I'm just providing an example of someone discussing boring in outside this forum.

 

[Sully]

Groucho I won't quote it but other international refs came out post retirement and stated that Paddy was wrong and Stuart was right.

Apart from that the fiasco compromised O'Brien, a former Police Officer, with his visit to the ABs and apology to them in breach of all good practice to maintain impartiality. I note his former profession, the same as Stuart BTW, because he would have known of the absolute requirement to maintain one's integrity at all times and how that can be compromised with such actions. So statements from a compromised referee, who had a coloured past as a referee are nothing to support in that particular example.

As for Richard Loe, the cheap shot thug, if he told me the sky was blue I'd go and have a look for myself and still tell him to Go get %$#%$^. His "other methods" would have involved tackling a player on his back on the ground with his forearm to the face or gouging the eyes of his own team mate.

Opinions are like; well you know the quote. It doesn't make them right. Neither does the shoot the messenger type argument you're using here. Loe was a great scummager and I'd trust his opinion on anything to do with front row play.

 

[Gnostic]

Opinions are like; well you know the quote. It doesn't make them right. Neither does the shoot the messenger type argument you're using here. Loe was a great scummager and I'd trust his opinion on anything to do with front row play.

I know Sully, but the facts in the first two paragraphs are correct are they not?

As for Loe being a great scrummager, well apparently Donald Trump is a successful businessman....just saying I wouldn't trust Donald's opinion on anything either.

 

[Sully]

I know Sully, but the facts in the first two paragraphs are correct are they not?

As for Loe being a great scrummager, well apparently Donald Trump is a successful businessman..just saying I wouldn't trust Donald's opinion on anything either.

But Loe was a good scrummager.

 

[Gnostic]

But Loe was a good scrummager.

I know and Trump is a billionaire even if the twit inherited most of it and made the rest from idiotic reality TV for other idiots. Point is Loe was a dirty ^%$%^^ as a rugby player and the question has to be asked how much of his dominance came from illegal and dirty acts. So as I said he could tell me the sky was blue and I wouldn't give him the time of day even if I was getting sunburnt.

And yes I know the dark arts are universal among front rowers and Australia has produced more than one or two questionable props........

Anyway back to the England game, see you in the bar afterwards to continue this over a beer or two.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Who has Fast Eddy got as his forwards/scrum coach?

 

[wamberal]

Who has Fast Eddy got as his forwards/scrum coach?

Eddy doesn't believe in scrum coaches.


Okay, I made that up, but it is a reasonable assumption based on history.

 

[Gnostic]

Wallabies can expect a torrid time in the forwards with Borthwick coaching. Don't know scrum coach but we certainly would have heard the consternation is EJ (Eddie Jones) had taken Dal Maso with him from Japan.

 

[boyo]

His disciplinary record in Tests is pretty good.

You mean the ones in which he's not banned? (Lions 2013, RWC 2015, etc.)