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Elsom's Captaincy

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The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I think that's harsh on Rocky, Naza. The bloke can play IMHO and is an integral part of the team. The captaincy question is a different thing altogether and I'm starting to agree with those who say that he probably isn't up to it.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Noticed you were mighty silent last week though. Didn't have his best game tonight, but don't think he was our worst. He has ticker, and although he may not be a captain he is our best 6 any day of the week.

Sorry Barbar man. Elsom's effort last week was against a Bok team that committed nobody to the breakdown, an average scrum and attempted to maul twice. Elsom spent the game in the centres and on the wing. Elsom is not a shadow of the player he was before his Ireland jaunt. On form Hodgeson does a hell of a lot more on the field and would provide some support to Pocock, but how much has Deans used him this year? 1 minute? Oh thats right he's tackling practice and making up team numbers on game day.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
Sorry Barbar man. Elsom's effort last week was against a Bok team that committed nobody to the breakdown, an average scrum and attempted to maul twice. Elsom spent the game in the centres and on the wing. Elsom is not a shadow of the player he was before his Ireland jaunt. On form Hodgeson does a hell of a lot more on the field and would provide some support to Pocock, but how much has Deans used him this year? 1 minute? Oh thats right he's tackling practice and making up team numbers on game day.

hodgson plays as a second seven, i think you discount how much work elsom does in close as a battering ram. With palu out we need rocky doing that work cos brown is hit and miss and pocock is better served staying fresh for the breakdown than hitting it up constantly. Hodgson is a bigger myth than Rocky and justly should be left on the bench unless needed to cover injury.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
hodgson plays as a second seven, i think you discount how much work elsom does in close as a battering ram. With palu out we need rocky doing that work cos brown is hit and miss and pocock is better served staying fresh for the breakdown than hitting it up constantly. Hodgson is a bigger myth than Rocky and justly should be left on the bench unless needed to cover injury.

I agree with what you are saying WJ but part of the problem has been making Elsom a protected species within the system. There are other players that offer what Rocky does and may just have an edge over him in the attitude department. Higgenbotham is very similar and that he is untried may just provide the Hunger to make a go of it. I was dissipointed that Mowen was not introduced into the Wallaby frame this year.

The problem was that Rocky did set the standard last night and the rest of the team followed his lead with the ill discipline ie Mitchell. We went from being a bit behind but well in the hunt to being completely screwed because of this.
 

JJJ

Vay Wilson (31)
To be fair to Rocky, he hasn't had a lot of experience as a captain. Didn't captain the Tahs, didn't captain Leinster, doesn't captain the Brumbies. He should've had the chance to make these basic captaining mistakes at a lower level where it wouldn't have such a big impact. Or he shouldn't have been made captain at all.

From memory he was made captain on the strength of his Leinster campaign and because he gave a Pocock-esque peptalk to the Wallabies when they were losing a match in one of his first games back with Aus. I'd rather Sharpe be made captain until a suitable replacement is found. At least he has some experience at the job.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Fucking Australian fans...

Elsom has been one of the hardest working forwards in Australia all year in both the Super 14 and the test season... making lots of tackles and being heavily involved in the tight...

For that he was being criticised for not bringing out the big flashy runs he produced for Leinster...

Now after a couple of matches where he's run the ball a bit more he's now a seagull?

Make up your fucking mind people...

As for the captaincy issue... I'm happy for Elsom to remain captain until the conclusion of the RWC...

After that it should go to Genia with Pocock as his deputy...
 

MrMouse

Bob Loudon (25)
Gnostic you seem to have a real bee in your bonnet about Elsom, to the point where your death-ride-coloured glasses are obstructing your view.
His captaincy/leadership/diplomacy was fairly atrocious last night. I think everyone agrees on that. And it's been an ongoing issue.
But his play as an blindside breakaway was very high quality. He worked his guts out, well past the point that he should have been replaced, and kept fighting to the last. Workrate, high. Effectiveness at the breakdown, good. Link play, not great. Seagulling, minimal.
Like WJ and Disco I thought Genia was ordinary, and I thought he struggled in a dominant side last week. He'll get back to where he was, no worries, but he doesn't need the pressure of being captain too.
Pocock has just gotten to the point where, at international level, he can truly impose himself. He is going to be a leader in the squad hopefully for the next decade, but the time is not right for him to be captain.
Benn is making his way back from injury, and doesn't really have much form as a captain.
Sharpie I suspect is not amongst first picked atm and will be challenged by Horwill et al next year. Otherwise, if we knew we could get June series and Boks level performances out of him for another season I'd agree, give it to him.
I don't think a single member of this forum would give the captaincy to Gits.
So Rocky is, at the moment, our best option. He needs to work on his dealings with the ref (and stop taking lessons from Hoiles), but those other leaders need to step up too on-field. Quite obviously, none of the lot of them is doing enough in that regard, and quite obviously, last night's loss does not belong at Elsom's feet alone.
End rant.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Elsom deserves his spot in the side, but his captaincy hasn't added anything to the side
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
But his play as an openside breakaway was very high quality. He worked his guts out, well past the point that he should have been replaced, and kept fighting to the last. Workrate, high. Effectiveness at the breakdown, good. Link play, not great. Seagulling, minimal.

Let me just highlight that part for you. Elsom is not an Openside.

Secondly show me more than three or four breakdowns that Elsom committed to. Link play was non-existant. Pocock was unsupported generally by either Brown or Elsom and the fact that in that area he still managed to dominate is amazing.

I have no special bee in my bonnet for Elsom he is just part of the problem of players believing the hype about themselves and doing nothing to justify it. The fact is that this was all predictable from the way they played last year and the form of key players in the S14. Elsom had his worst ever year in S14 IMO and didn't deserve his spot in the starting team.

Last week he was able to shine somewhat against a team that committed no one to the breakdown, did not maul and were tired after two bashings against the ABs.

If the ABs had played as they did against the Bok it would have been 60+ points. As it is this is the worst home loss in Wallabies history if I am not mistaken.
 

MrMouse

Bob Loudon (25)
Let me just highlight that part for you. Elsom is not an Openside.

Secondly show me more than three or four breakdowns that Elsom committed to. Link play was non-existant. Pocock was unsupported generally by either Brown or Elsom and the fact that in that area he still managed to dominate is amazing.

Well, first of all you are right and I am an idiot. Any kid in U/10s would know he's a blindside. Noted.

I had a look at the first half footage. I sped through a bit, but I counted 14 rucks he hit, just in the half, 3 of which we won turnovers, and once he gave away a penalty (then 10m). There were another 6+ where he was in position but went pillar/post because he wasn't needed or ball was secure. I would agree in the first half he spent too much time at OC/Wing in attack, but the consistency of it tells me it's tactical.
I think also that there's a bit of a misunderstanding in rugby thinking that all the back row should be in every breakdown. I'm sure you're not saying that, but it is a common misconception. What is most outstanding about Pocock at the moment is his ability to read the play and know the moment to go after the ball, giving him superhuman effectiveness in securing turnover ball. But it's the tight 5 who have to do the grunt work, getting a couple to every breakdown, in my opinion at least. Anyway that's straying OT.

I agree that Elsom was one of many "established" wallabies who were shite in the S14, but the fact is, unless you include Hodgeson (who played mostly at openside) or Mowen (who wasn't even selected for Baas) he was the best option. I know that Reds fans are crazy about Higgers, but besides 'highlight plays' he tended to go missing a lot. He and Mowen are genuine post-2011 options but did not deserve to be in front of Elsom. Whilst Elsom hasn't been at his (World XV calibre) best in the tests, he has been solid-good.

Cheer up it could be worse, it was only our worst home loss since 2003 (a year we made the WC Final).
 
R

rhyso

Guest
As it is this is the worst home loss in Wallabies history if I am not mistaken.

Nope, they did us 50-21 at Homebush in 2003. I was there and it sucked. A couple of great tries from us including to Sailor, but our defense was obviously horrendous. Rogers in particular was all at sea at 13.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utdf4E20IYw

We turned it around and beat them in the RWC semi-final a few months later through a magic Mortlock moment early on (back at 13):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agKbHplOM7s

That intercept made us believe we could win, and from there it was 70 minutes of desperate hard graft (like the French in 2007).
 

Boomer

Alfred Walker (16)
Regards Elsom and his work in Hong Kong... Ladies and gentlemen, the Rock has arrived as a leader of men.

I was standing in the outer, well after the siren, soaking it in. The turf was bare except for the dirt-trackers from both teams playing a bit of touch. There was one other bloke out there - Rocky. He stayed out there well after everyone else had hit the showers. He did 3/4 of the pitch, signing every autograph, taking pics, kissing kids, waving and chatting to all comers. He was the single best advertisement for Australia and the Wallabies on the day.

It's an indication he's beginning to show real leadership.

He was solid on the field and held them together when they were under the gun in the second half. There was no backchat to the ref. Afterwards, there were flashes of his old, Golden self (pre-Ireland) in the press conference.

Gone is the sulky behaviour on the pitch. Thankfully, the temper tantrum at training before the Canterbury game, it looks like that's behind him too.

Putting two and two together, I suspect the cumulative effect of a poor win-loss ratio, and the criticisms leveled at his captaincy and Dean's coaching has stung the man badly. He's as loyal as a drover's cattle dog and it must be a great relief for him personally to get one back for Deans and for his mates.

Rocky, bless you for stepping up and gutsing it out. You deserve the job and the plaudits because you've earnt it the hard way.
 

Jnor

Peter Fenwicke (45)
I was wondering why he wasn't in the post game vid on the aru site

Good on him for doing that and I reckon his captaincy is coming along well, if a little slowly. He does seem a man of his convictions though and it'll be good to see this and the other elements of the Wobs game continue to come together
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Having a no. 8 he can rely on has certainly helped his game, and as long as he can continue building a better relationship with the refs he'll do just fine...

I'm sure he would've learnt from his mistakes in the 3N...
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
It is fair to say that his captaincy hadn't been great, but I did notice that he was calmer with the ref this time and maybe that helped.
 

Boomer

Alfred Walker (16)
It is fair to say that his captaincy hadn't been great, but I did notice that he was calmer with the ref this time and maybe that helped.

He wandered off at halftime, chatting forcefully but appropriately with Alain and did fairly well to stay in his ear.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
That's good to hear. A captain has to manage the ref and nobody does it better than Messrs Smit and McCaw. Hopefully Rock has been quietly studying their work.
 
T

Travi34

Guest
Agreed that he has come leaps and bounds...

was pysched for him joining brumbies, and thus Wallabies... had a few stellar games, but hasnt been consistent at all, only just keeping his spot...

He's played as a centre/wing for a while now, and can be a great attacking force there...

I think HK showed a corner, and if we manage a good euro tour, he'll be guaranteed a spot until after the RWC...
 
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