Elsom: In or Out?

[ChargerWA]

The other concerning thing is it took Rocky nearly a full international season to get back anywhere near his best after his last injury layoff. Whats to say he won't take as long again. By then the RWC will be done and dusted.

 

[Ruggo]

Anyone but Sharpe. He's proven he's not captaincy material at the Force tbh.

I agree. Sharpe is inspirational in his own game but his record does not reflect that of a good captain. His sides have a terrible habit of not getting up in close matches and falling over at the last hurdle. I am a big fan of Sharpe the player but not so Sharpe the captain.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

If this injury to Elsom looks like keeping him out of the first test or two, then I think Deans ought to make the call on the captaincy now and let him get fit again without the added pressure. To me there are two issues at play: do we play Rocky at all and do we make him captain? If fit, there answer to the first question is absolutely yes. He is one of the premier flankers in the world and a huge asset to the Wallabies when he is firing. The answer to the second question is probably no if he misses some games in the 3N. I'd rather see some continuity of leadership there heading into the RWC.

If I were Deans, I'd be going and having a heart to heart with Rocky and sort out where to go from here. It's certainly not ideal to have one of your best players and captain not travelling well going into such and important test season.

 

[Hawko]

I agree. Sharpe is inspirational in his own game but his record does not reflect that of a good captain. His sides have a terrible habit of not getting up in close matches and falling over at the last hurdle. I am a big fan of Sharpe the player but not so Sharpe the captain.

I think its a bit harsh to blame the captain for the Force's failure to win close games. Did he make specific decisions to take a particular penalty a particular way or to keep the ball in close when spreading it wide was the go? Maybe last Saturday he could have given the ball to Sheehan rather than JOC (James O'Connor) or could have tapped and run but I think that the Force's under-performance this year has a whole load of other factors that are far more important.

 

[Bullrush]

Looks like if he's fit, then he's it:

WALLABIES coach Robbie Deans believes there is no point even contemplating about an alternative Test captain as he is adamant Rocky Elsom will play in the opening international against Samoa in Sydney on July 17.

Speculation that David Pocock, James Horwill or Will Genia will be handed the Test skipper's reins has intensified after Elsom discovered this week his ankle injury sustained during the Brumbies match against the Force in Perth last Saturday night was serious.

After playing his first match for the Brumbies this season, Elsom underwent an MRI scan that revealed he was suffering from syndesmosis, or a high ankle sprain.

Deans said yesterday that although Elsom was likely to be sidelined for six weeks, he anticipated his skipper would be part of the Wallabies squad for the start of their long international season, which culminates with the World Cup in September-October.

''It's syndesmosis but it is not as sinister as they often are, which is evident from the fact that Rocky finished the game,'' Deans said.

Deans said there was no point discussing an alternative captain but at least conceded that among the Wallabies leadership group there were several options.

''But we don't believe it will come to that. He will be fine by the time the [Test] program starts. There's no suggestion from the prognosis that he won't be available,'' Deans said. ''What was really evident in the Perth match was how well conditioned he is. He is in a lot better condition now than he was at any point during last year's campaign when he was carrying his hamstring injury.''

Elsom, who was the only Wallaby to play every minute of last year's international Test calendar, insisted on continuing until full-time after his injury during the Force match.

Reminds me of this other Captain Deans was in love with.....Reuben Thorne anyone??

 

[RedsHappy]

Looks like if he's fit, then he's it:....Reminds me of this other Captain Deans was in love with.....Reuben Thorne anyone??

Ah, yes, Bullrush, memories do flood back! As Wikipedia has re RT: "...his captaincy ended on a low note as the team was eliminated by the Wallabies in the semi-finals of the 2003 Rugby Union World Cup. Following the World Cup, Thorne was replaced as All Blacks captain by Tana Umaga...."

 

[Bullrush]

Ah, yes, Bullrush, memories do flood back! As Wikipedia has re RT: "...his captaincy ended on a low note as the team was eliminated by the Wallabies in the semi-finals of the 2003 Rugby Union World Cup. Following the World Cup, Thorne was replaced as All Blacks captain by Tana Umaga...."

Tana Umaga.....the man who Deans and Mitchell kept out of that semi-final despite being declared fit.....I need to stop reminiscing or I'll start crying at my desk.....

 

[DPK]

Here you go, BR, turns those tears into rage...

 

[RedsHappy]

Tana Umaga.....the man who Deans and Mitchell kept out of that semi-final despite being declared fit.....I need to stop reminiscing or I'll start crying at my desk.....

Bullrush, I am a known Deans sceptic, though around these parts, I have learnt to proceed with an uncharacteristic diplomacy of late re my unwavering assessments of The Master Coach. Nonetheless, I must echo your worthy mention of '...love of Captain...' when I see this morning's intense, unequivocal, 'Elsom will be selected as Captain and play in the winter Tests (virtually) come what may' from TMC. This is despite:

- any balanced, objective assessment of RE's Captaincy would surely yield the conclusion that the results were 'mixed';

- RE has played virtually no S15, had/has a chronic hamstring problem which, as they do, could easily recur;

- in his only S15 game, he incurs another leg injury involving a likely 6 week recovery period taking him to the very cusp of the Test period before he plays another day of rugby;

- such unqualified endorsement cannot create any legitimate pressure on RE to re-demonstrate his worth in 2011;

- such unqualified endorsement as to a guaranteed place irrespective of recent form and fitness-risk, says to all the other good Aus players in this year's S15 at 6 or thereabouts: 'thanks for the efforts blokes, you've been great, but you don't stand a chance, come what may, if RE's around.'

- Deans said end-2010: 'there are no guaranteed 2011 Wallabies, we'll start an assessment afresh in 2011.'

Ali's Choice noted the alleged benefits of RD's 'intense loyalties' to his selections and players. Some of us worry that, in various of his eccentric and inexplicable 2009-10 selections, and the latest RE-love, and his oft-noted refusal to us his bench adequately, his persistence with Giteau (especially as kicker), etc, this is but a polite version of a more apt phrase: reckless fucking stubbornness unsupported by objective fact.

 

[Scarfman]

There's quite a few senior Kiwi players who'll never forgive Mitchell and Deans for the way they were shoved aside for younger players. It didn't come off in the pressure game, though.

Cap-Tana was one of the great leaders. Why didn't D&M recognise that?

I agree with RH - why throw such unconditional support behind Rocky? Why not say - well we expect Rocky to play but of course if he's not fit we have plenty of leaders in the team who can take us to where we want to go yadda yadda.

 

[Bullrush]

Bullrush, I am a known Deans sceptic, though around these parts, I have learnt to proceed with an uncharacteristic diplomacy of late re my unwavering assessments of The Master Coach. Nonetheless, I must echo your worthy mention of '...love of Captain...' when I see this morning's intense, unequivocal, 'Elsom will be selected as Captain and play in the winter Tests (virtually) come what may' from TMC. This is despite:

- any balanced, objective assessment of RE's Captaincy would surely yield the conclusion that the results were 'mixed';

- RE has played virtually no S15, had/has a chronic hamstring problem which, as they do, could easily recur;

- in his only S15 game, he incurs another leg injury involving a likely 6 week recovery period taking him to the very cusp of the Test period before he plays another day of rugby;

- such unqualified endorsement cannot create any legitimate pressure on RE to re-demonstrate his worth in 2011;

- such unqualified endorsement as to a guaranteed place irrespective of recent form and fitness-risk, says to all the other good Aus players in this year's S15 at 6 or thereabouts: 'thanks for the efforts blokes, you've been great, but you don't stand a chance, come what may, if RE's around.'

- Deans said end-2010: 'there are no guaranteed 2011 Wallabies, we'll start an assessment afresh in 2011.'

Ali's Choice noted the alleged benefits of RD's 'intense loyalties' to his selections and players. Some of us worry that, in various of his eccentric and inexplicable 2009-10 selections, and the latest RE-love, and his oft-noted refusal to us his bench adequately, his persistence with Giteau (especially as kicker), etc, this is but a polite version of a more apt phrase: reckless fucking stubbornness unsupported by objective fact.

I'll never forget Deans and Mitchell telling NZ that Christian Cullen was the 3rd best fullback in the country behind Mils and Leon MacDonald....and then calling up Ben Blair and then Ben Atiga to be their cover....

 

[Bullrush]

There's quite a few senior Kiwi players who'll never forgive Mitchell and Deans for the way they were shoved aside for younger players. It didn't come off in the pressure game, though.

Cap-Tana was one of the great leaders. Why didn't D&M recognise that?

I agree with RH - why throw such unconditional support behind Rocky? Why not say - well we expect Rocky to play but of course if he's not fit we have plenty of leaders in the team who can take us to where we want to go yadda yadda.

I read Tana's biography where he said that he didn't even know if he was in the AB team from week to week under Deans & Mitchell. He'd have to approach them after trainings to ask......What.The.Fuck

So wish Tana had stayed for another 2 years to go to the 2007 RWC....or even taken 12-18 months off and come back to play.....oh well.....

 

[Slim 293]

Don't bad mouth Ben Blair!

He's a local hero in Canberra...

 

[spectator]

I don't disagree with Deans' comments, with the caveat that Elsom has to prove that he is fit and worthy of a starting position. If he does demonstrate that he is fit and has some form, then yeah...as the incumbent he should be allowed to resume the captaincy.

Having said that, I personally think Genia is the best suited to captain.

 

[Scotty]

There's quite a few senior Kiwi players who'll never forgive Mitchell and Deans for the way they were shoved aside for younger players. It didn't come off in the pressure game, though.

Cap-Tana was one of the great leaders. Why didn't D&M recognise that?

I agree with RH - why throw such unconditional support behind Rocky? Why not say - well we expect Rocky to play but of course if he's not fit we have plenty of leaders in the team who can take us to where we want to go yadda yadda.

Well it isn't quite unconditional. He basically said 'I expect him to play the first game, so no point thinking about captain options'. The underlying message could be 'if he isn't fit, then we will think about captaincy options'.

If he said 'We will have to start thinking about captaincy options now, even though we think Rocky will be fit', it would undermine Rocky, and cause a lot of media questions about possible alternatives, and other reason why they might be replacing Elsom.

 

[Ruggo]

I read Tana's biography where he said that he didn't even know if he was in the AB team from week to week under Deans & Mitchell. He'd have to approach them after trainings to ask......What.The.Fuck

So wish Tana had stayed for another 2 years to go to the 2007 RWC....or even taken 12-18 months off and come back to play.....oh well.....

What's it called BR? I wouldn't mind a read of that one.

 

[Bullrush]

It's called:

Tana Umaga: Up Close. Here's an excerpt I found:

I was very enthusiastic going into the first test in Christchurch. I'd been looking forward to it for two years and couldn't wait to give it everything I had. Not even some of the worst weather Christchurch could throw at us could change that. Everyone knows - or thinks they know - what happened in the first 90 seconds. I went into a ruck and cleaned out Brian O'Driscoll.

I was standing over the ball trying to protect it when he bounced back to have another crack at disrupting our possession. We were tussling as he tried to get through and I grabbed his leg to try to unbalance him, a technique I'd used before and still use to this day. What I didn't realise was that Keven Mealamu was doing the same thing on the other side of the ruck. As I got one of O'Driscoll's legs up, Keven hoisted his other leg and drove him back.

He ended up with both feet off the ground, not in control of himself or the situation, a position rugby players often find themselves in. When we let him go he came down and what happened, happened. I didn't think anything of it, I just took off.

When the whistle blew and he was being attended to by his medical staff, I was completely focused on the job in hand. The game I'd been preparing for since the 2003 World Cup had just started, the pressure was on, and I was concentrating on what we were going to do next. It didn't really occur to me to go and check on what was happening in their camp. There was no conscious decision not to go over: I didn't do it then because I didn't do it, period; I'd never done it for anybody else. I was a competitive animal out there.

The flipside of that was my bedside manner when my players got injured: if I saw someone in my team on the ground, I'd say, "What's wrong with you? Just get up." I was always telling cousin Jerry that. When they carted O'Driscoll off I thought Jesus, major, then I put it out of my mind and got on with the game.

I didn't go and see him after the game but I ran into a group of their players who weren't going to the after-match function and asked Richard Hill how Brian was. He said he'd gone to hospital. Again, I didn't think anything of it. When we got back to the hotel after the dinner, Keven and I were told that we'd been cited so we had a meeting with NZRU lawyer Steve Cottrell to run through what had happened. While we were doing that, news came through that the Citing Commissioner had ruled there was no case to answer. We were relieved but not surprised; from the outset our view was that since there'd been no malice or intent, the matter shouldn't go any further.

The Lions leadership and their high-powered spin doctor Alistair Campbell wouldn't take "no case to answer" for an answer and found a way to take the matter much further. The sustained personal attack they launched against me was hard to believe and even harder to stomach. You don't want to take it personally but it's almost impossible not to when another player, a guy you had some respect for, attacks your character in the most direct and damning terms. My first thought was geez, don't be a sook; there's no use crying about it, man, it's over. On the other hand I could understand how bitterly disappointed O'Driscoll was. He would have been just like me: buzzing with anticipation, really up for it, and desperate to make a point on the field.

There was a lot of talk about the Lions' response to the haka. Someone had supposedly advised O'Driscoll to kneel down and pick a blade of grass, which he'd done, and we'd supposedly regarded that as disrespectful. The truth was we didn't care what they did. I noticed him doing it but just thought, oh, that's different. Opposition teams had tried a variety of responses and our attitude was always the same: whatever.

We didn't understand what he was doing so they were one up on us there, but it's rubbish to suggest that it had anything to do with what happened at that ruck. The media tends to provide interpretations of what they think has happened, as opposed to what actually did happen, and it's often all that speculation which creates the angst and inflames the situation.

At first, the kerfuffle didn't really bother me. It was a case of, oh well that's the way it is. But it just snowballed and O'Driscoll kept going on about the fact that I hadn't rung him to say sorry. I'd actually tried to get hold of him on the Monday via the Lions' media liaison person but I never heard back. By this stage we were in Wellington and it just kept cranking up and I was getting a bit angry. I finally obtained his number and got hold of him but it wasn't a warm exchange.

He was still angry that I hadn't gone over to see how he was and once he'd got that off his chest, he accused me of being involved in a lot of off-the-ball incidents. The Lions hadn't been impressed with the way I'd played, he said, and I had to watch it. I said, "Don't talk to me about off-the-ball incidents, talk to your own players." (With all the fuss the Lions had made over the O'Driscoll incident, it had almost been overlooked that their lock Danny Grewcock, a player with a history of foul play, had been cited, found guilty, and banned for biting Keven Mealamu.) "Look at Grewcock," I said. "He's a meathead."

"Yeah, he is a meathead," he said. "You can't change that but we're better than that. We shouldn't play like those guys. We thought you were a gentleman." While he went on along those lines, I was thinking to myself, hang on, this is a game I take seriously.

And I did: I aimed to let an opponent know I was out there and get into his mind so that next time he'd have a look to see if I was coming. I'd body-check him on the way through or if I came up quickly and the pass didn't go to him, I'd still give him a little reminder that I was around so he knew that if he didn't have his wits about him, he could get hit, and hit hard. I had no qualms about it; that was how I played. That's the gamesmanship of rugby. Players sledge. I sledged a bit and did so in that game.

I was always trying to get an edge and in that respect I was no different to a lot of players. But when he started talking about off-the-ball stuff and me not being a gentleman I thought, oh, you're reaching now. I never went out to commit foul play: I didn't punch guys on the ground or stomp on them. So I said, "Oh well, mate, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm sorry for what happened to you but there was no intent in it; it was one of those unfortunate things that happen in rugby." He said, "Yeah, but you could've helped it." "Okay, mate," I said, "all the best." And that was where we left it.

Instead of trying to get on the front foot straight away, our PR strategy was to let the storm blow itself out. But it didn't blow itself out and when I eventually held a press conference a few days later it felt like a hollow exercise. By that stage I was all for just taking it on the chin and getting on with it, but our media people wanted to respond to what had become a pretty relentless and inflammatory - as in "I could have died" - campaign.

I'd been getting a lot of support from the team all week and at the press conference I was backed up by the leadership group which was great, even though the exercise itself felt like it was all a bit late. Whether it could have been nipped in the bud is a moot point given the intensity of their media blitz but for a couple of days they had the floor to themselves and they made the most of it.

Even when I was being bombarded with questions I couldn't help seeing the funny side of it: poor little me surrounded by all those big, burly forwards as if I couldn't protect myself. It was good to have my say but I wanted to do my talking on the field. Clive Woodward had talked his team up, saying they were the best prepared Lions ever and wouldn't repeat the mistakes of the 2001 Lions tour of Australia, which was a crack at Graham Henry who'd coached that team. That kind of thing - attacking our people, talking themselves up - just steeled us. We wanted to show them that they weren't as good as they thought they were and Woodward wasn't as good as he thought he was.

They started the second test very well, scoring under the posts virtually from the kick-off. I wasn't worried because we hadn't had the ball or played any rugby. My message was let's get the ball, get down there, and give it a crack. They launched another attack but this time they dropped the ball. I picked it up and gave it to Daniel Carter because I knew he'd do something with it and I was able to run off him and score. It was a team try, pure and simple. I didn't see it as some sort of personal statement - "straight back at you" - because I never felt like it was me against them.

At times, though, they seemed to think it was them against me. As a ruck broke up, Paul O'Connell loomed over me ranting and raving. As I got up, their props Julian White and Gethin Jenkins started pushing and shoving. I knew it was going to happen at some stage so I just said, "Come on, any time, just bring it." I backed away slowly looking at them and saying, "Are you going to start playing soon or what?" Later, when O'Connell went down, I went over to him as he was rolling around the ground and said, "Mate, don't give up now, we're just getting started." He jumped straight up. When Stephen Jones came on for Jonny Wilkinson he took the ball up yelling, "For our captain!" like something out of Braveheart. I said, "Are you serious?" You could see how they were trying to motivate themselves but it became quite laughable. I got into some of their forwards about being a bit chubby and after the game Jenkins said to Steve Hansen, who'd coached him when he'd been with Wales, "Can you tell Tana it's nothing personal, it's just the game." That was a bit rich coming from them. During the game I hadn't thought about the stuff they'd been saying about me until their players started having a crack at me. I didn't go out that night but the guys who did ran into a bunch of Lions and reckoned some of them were good guys.

 

[The Mayor of Perth]

Wow! Such eloquent writing...must have had an Aussie ghost!

 

[ACT Crusader]

Obviously Deans wants Rocky to be back playing fit and confident to add to squad competitiveness etc, so he's hardly going to say something that puts a cloud over Rocky or distract Rocky from dealing with his injury and recovery.

There are warmup tests and the 3Ns that will allow the established Wallabies who may not have performed the best in the S15 to get things going. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is certainly on that list I would suggest.

 

[Gnostic]

Well Well Well.

As Reds Happy said above Deans said at the start of the Super Rugby Season that there were no 2011 Wallabies and everyone would have to earn their spot. There was not caveat on the statement when he made it. I was sceptical at the time. Is Deans now being shown to have as much verbal integrity as a Labour minister?

I find this situation objectionable on a number of levels:-
1) Elsom has not played any significant part in Super Rugby this year and other options have and have played pretty bloodly well (Dennis, Mowen, Higginbum, Kimlin, Wykes and McCalman in no particular order).
2) Those players who actually took Deans at his word and hung around in Super Rugby hoping to get a Wallabies when they could have taken Euros have every right to feel agrieved knowing now that they never had a chance no matter how well they played as the position is essentially contracted.
3) I do not accept the assertion from a few here that Elsom has been anything but average since his return from the NH. I do not rate him the best 6 in Oz on FORM and as such have thought for some time he shouldn't be selected