Eddie Jones is at it again

[The Red Baron]

-sigh-

Why do people continually seek out comments from the peanut gallery, otherwise known as Eddie Jones?

Former Brumbies and Reds Super Rugby coach Eddie Jones says that the addition of a fifth Super Rugby team for Australia - the Melbourne Rebels - has hurt Australian Rugby.
Jones says that it is no surprise that four of the five Australian Super Rugby franchises are curently struggling for form.

The new Japan coach says that the Reds, Waratahs, Rebels and Force are in the bottom eight out of 15 because the talent has been diluted.

Jones may have a point as all five teams in the Australian Super Rugby Conference currently have a negative points difference.

"Australia's just got too many teams," Jones told Rugby News.

Jones, who recently named his first Japanese squad for the 2012 Asian Five Nations tournament, says the establishment of the Melbourne Rebels franchise has further diluted Australia's playing stocks after a similar situation occurred when the Force entered Super Rugby in 2006.

"Each side has been watered down because there are too many of them, and that's a real concern for the Wallabies, because you don't have your best players playing with each other," he says.

Contrary to the belief of former Wallabies like Jeremy Paul, who rubbished the notion that the Australian conference is the weakest in the SANZAR competition, Jones says, in reality, it's a fact.

He feels the standard of Super Rugby this season has been "pretty disappointing" across the board.
"There are definitely different levels (of competitiveness) between the conferences and the level of play, particularly the attack, is pretty orthodox. But the defence and breakdown work is of a good quality."

Jones says teams that are doing well - like the Stormers and the Highlanders - have a good work ethic and "high team cohesion".

The former Brumbies, Reds and Wallabies mentor says teams have not been helped by the usual exodus of players that occurs after a Rugby World Cup.

"It comes down to personnel, really. A lot of the good players have moved on - some have gone to Japan and some have gone to Europe. That's taken the depth out of teams."

Jones has also been disappointed with the standard of refereeing, particularly at the tackle-ball area, although he says any game former Super Rugby player Glen Jackson controls is worth watching.
"The refereeing, apart from Glen Jackson, has just been indifferent," he says.

"They're (referees) now giving mixed messages about what players should do at the tackle-ball area, and because of that, teams are more indecisive about whether they should keep the ball or kick the ball."

http://www.superxv.com/news/super15_rugby_news.asp?id=34709

 

[Schadenfreude]

I wonder what insight Campese has?

 

[Braveheart81]

He's probably right that it does make the Australian franchises weaker in the short term. The same happened when the Force joined the competition.

What it does do is provide 22 more players with the opportunity to play Super Rugby every week which results in strengthening Australian Rugby.

With the Force, players such as Pocock were given the opportunity to be key players way earlier than they would have at other provinces.

Now with the Rebels, players like Pyle, Jones, Saffy, Kingi, Phipps are all getting opportunities they probably wouldn't have seen at other franchises. Players like Bernard Foley are getting an opportunity at the Waratahs (because Kurtley Beale left).

There is no doubt that some of these players will go on to become Wallabies and certainly most of them will become very useful Super Rugby players throughout their careers.

Having more players playing professional rugby every week can only help Australian rugby. It might cause a little bit of short term pain, but overall it presents everyone with an opportunity.

 

[fatprop]

I agree with Jones, sure the extra side has found some gems, but there is a lot of dross getting S15 contracts at the moment as well.

As far as I care Aus rugby was still trying to swallow the Force when the Rebels were dumped on us. It will be at least another 5 years before the squads can stop trolling the Aus schoolboys teams for academy players and can rely on the U20s teams as the Kiwis do.

 

[rugbysmartarse]

What is he on about, the australian conference is easily the toughest, evidenced by the fact all the teams are beating each other. Thats why the aus teams arent faring well. Frankly I can't wait to move on to some of the easier SA and NZ teams so we can start moving up the ladder

 

[Brisbok]

What is he on about, the australian conference is easily the toughest, evidenced by the fact all the teams are beating each other. Thats why the aus teams arent faring well. Frankly I can't wait to move on to some of the easier SA and NZ teams so we can start moving up the ladder

Where is the old fishing emoticon when you need it?!

 

[wamberal]

In practical terms, meaning in commercial terms, we probably had little choice other than to embrace a fifth franchise.

Theoretically, the addition of a fifth franchise - representing a 25% increase in required playing strength - should have been comparatively less difficult than the 33% increase from three to four.

But, no pain, no gain. Hope we see the gain soon!

 

[RedsHappy]

Some of Eddie's comments confirm him as the Peter Beattie of rugby - the media tart, where's there's a journo and a mic, there's Eddie.

Please let's not restart the lazy and convenient myths that the issues of 'weak Australian franchises' is simply all about 'the paucity of good players' and 'we just don't have enough talent'. Most of that is bullshit and comes from parties that will simply not grasp the importance of quality of management and excellence in coaching in modern rugby. These excuse-makers are still obsessed with individual players and think that weekly selection and what they see every Saturday on the grass is more or less all there is to it, they're really a relic of the amateur years, preserved in aspic.

Reds: disaster in 2009, new management late 2009 +, Super title 2011. This speed of transformation - many argued here in 2010 and well into 2011 - was meant to be impossible in the allegedly talent-stricken Australian rugby theatre.

Tahs: wonderful players, but the introverted and timid NSWRU/Tahs Boards refuse to radically change the coaching base, recruit a Jake White-like talent and change the whole culture and mindset and technical skill level that clearly is at the heart of the 'tragedy of the modern Tahs' and why they never, ever realise their massive potential.

Brumbies: rebuilding after years of incompetent leadership and clueless yet conceited senior players with too much influence. Taken the courageous route and recruited a world-class coach, and look at the improvement 'with unknowns'. A process that will take 2-3 years to complete, but with excellent signs already.

Force: if they'd bitten the bullet and paid up to build a top quality back line in depth, and, RG to eat humble pie, recruited a top flight backs coach from (say) NZ, they'd be way ahead of where they are today, their forwards are good enough. Rugby WA is just too satisfied with 'if we're 65% OK, we're OK enough, so long as the excuses are also OK'.

Rebels: Real core problem is too many poor recruits in 2010 at start. Then the wrong balance of specialist coaches from start - hence shocking defence, etc - now with Muggers and some top notch backs, they're improving gradually. Jury out on Hill, may be be classic Aussie rugby model of too much money allocated to players, and not enough to calibre of leadership. IMO, a seasoned, successful SA or NZ S14/15 coach would have achieved more. Forwards need rebuilding and better specialist coaching - get the right competence into this process, and improvements will come.

 

[TSR]

I don't have any problem with the notion that having a fifth team weakens the rest of our sides, or even with the notion that we are the weakest conference - although it is not as if the NZ & South African teams haven't always had sides in the bottom of the draw as well.

However, to me this was always about long term gain. (Okay, it was probably all about money, but I would rather look at the positives). Without equivalent domestic comps we were always going to be at a disadvantage to teams like South Africa & New Zealand.

I look at the current Brumbies team as proof positive that there is an upside to the current state of Australian rugby. With players having moved on, either domestically or OS, the likes of Nic White, Lilo, Jesse Mogg & Ben Mowen have grabbed the opportunity with both hands. Also, as Braveheart & RH mention, whilst the Rebels may be struggling for consistency they are still throwing up a handfull of contenders who otherwise might be riding the pine elsewhere, playing club rugby or in Saffy's case still playing league. In the Force's case, while the backline might be struggling, Cummins has still managed to put his hand up for consideration while I think that the whole forward pack is standing up to account for the lack of options out wide.

We all want our team to win each week, but for me that includes the Wallabies as well as the Reds and I am at least hopeful that the expansion will help the Wallabies in the longer term.

 

[Braveheart81]

Of course the biggest thing standing in the way of our Rugby Union ability is Rugby League.

Once someone invents a time machine and we can go back in time and stop rugby league from ever happening, we will be easily the best side in the world.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Eddie is right that we have the weakest conference and that in the short term the five teams hurts us. However, if you take a longer view, this will be good for the game in Australia. Ours is a competitive marketplace and having enough presence outside of the traditional places where rugby is played is key to growing the game in my view. Out here in the West, there has never been more interest in rugby than there is right now.

It could have been different though. League has been knocking on the door here and trying to claw back some ground they lost when Super League blew the game apart. Without the Force, that job would have been a lot easier for them. With the amount of Saffer and Kiwi expats who have been flooding Perth, tapping into that market has been good for the game here. The last game against the Chiefs had nary a spare seat.

So on the playing front it doesn't look great right now, but that will turn around eventually and as others have said, we have a bunch of young blokes (and a few older ones) who have the opportunity to play top line footy that that surely wouldn't have been the case with only three franchises.

 

[Bardon]

With the teams in Super 15 only coming from 3 nations it means that 1 will always be seen as weaker if they just 1 more team for whom some results didn't go their way. If results fall a certain way in the next two rounds a couple of the Aus teams could climb the table with some SA teams dropping down. Will we then hear Eddie's SA equivalent spouting about how the SA structure is wrong.

You don't judge new teams/franchises on a few seasons and then if they haven't won the competition declare them a failure. The aim for a new franchise is to show some kind of progress. It wont always be linear and sometimes a step back is needed to move forward in the long term. But no one can honestly say that the Rebels are a worse team than they were last year.

Both the Rebels and the Force are making progress and it's not surprising that a lot of their progress has been made against the teams they play most often, the other Aus teams. Eddie should come back in 10-20 years and if the Rebels and Force are still in the bottom 4 year in year out then maybe he had a point. If not then he should just accept form goes in cycles some years teams will do well and other times not so well.

If at some point over the next few years Aus happen to have 4 of the top 8 teams it doesn't suddenly mean the Aus set up is a shinning beacon and the right model that others should look to. It just means that the form cycle is trending upwards at that particular point in time.

 

[Brisbok]

You don't judge new teams/franchises on a few seasons and then if they haven't won the competition declare them a failure. The aim for a new franchise is to show some kind of progress. It wont always be linear and sometimes a step back is needed to move forward in the long term. But no one can honestly say that the Rebels are a worse team than they were last year.

Both the Rebels and the Force are making progress and it's not surprising that a lot of their progress has been made against the teams they play most often, the other Aus teams. Eddie should come back in 10-20 years and if the Rebels and Force are still in the bottom 4 year in year out then maybe he had a point. If not then he should just accept form goes in cycles some years teams will do well and other times not so well.

I think Eddie's point (right or wrong) is that the Rebels may be getting stronger at the expense of the other teams. Ie. the same talent is being spread across 5 teams rather than 4. In this scenario, the Rebels' gain, is the other teams' loss.

I agree with a number of the other posts though, short term pain for long term gain.

 

[What2040]

Hey Eddie - lets go to a Super 3 - one team from NZ, SA, and Oz - teams should be very strong and gee it would nearly be as good as test match rugby.

OF COURSE THE NUMBER OF TEAMS REFLECTS THE QUALITY AND DEPTH OF EACH CONFERENCE AND OBVIOUSLY TAKES SOME TIME, BEING YEARS AND YEARS, FOR THE STANDARD TO RISE BACK TO WHAT IT WAS WHEN THERE WERE 4 TEAMS OR 3 ETC - WE ARE TRYING TO EXPAND THE GAME NOT SHRINK IT !!!!

 

[Bardon]

I think Eddie's point (right or wrong) is that the Rebels may be getting stronger at the expense of the other teams. Ie. the same talent is being spread across 5 teams rather than 4. In this scenario, the Rebels' gain, is the other teams' loss.

I agree with a number of the other posts though, short term pain for long term gain.

Of course the Rebels improvement is likely to come at the expense of other Aus teams, but not for the reason Eddie has cited. The Rebels are an improving team so are managing to win more games. The fact that they play the other Aus teams more often means it's more likely those wins may come against other Aus teams, thus affecting the relative standings between the Rebels and the 4 other Aus teams.

However the existence of the Rebels, nor their current form, sufficiently explains why either the Reds or the Tahs are having such poor seasons, relative to last year or relative to the talent available to those sides. Neither the Rebels nor the Force poached hugely from either the Reds or the Tahs. Both the Reds and the Tahs have very good squads on paper, so you can't say they are lacking sufficient talent due to the existence of either the Rebels or the Force.

What can be said is that due to injury and poor form of key players, both the Tahs and the Reds are having poor seasons, so far (still a lot of rugby to be played). Neither the existence of the Rebels nor the Force caused this down turn and doesn't cause the good players the Tahs and Reds have at their disposal to perform badly against SA and NZ S15 teams.

 

[Forcefield]

The short term pain couldn't come at a better time. The Reds won the competition last year, saved themselves from financial ruin, and reinvigorated rugby more than just a bit, while the Wallabies are reigning Tri-Nations champions.

 

[Newter]

The Aus conference is the weakest? That would be why the Rebels beat the Blues, the Tahs and Brumbies took the Chiefs to the wire away from home, the Sharks got done by the Tahs and were all but beaten by the Brumbies as well....

 

[Brisbok]

The Aus conference is the weakest? That would be why the Rebels beat the Blues, the Tahs and Brumbies took the Chiefs to the wire away from home, the Sharks got done by the Tahs and were all but beaten by the Brumbies as well....

You didn't just try start that argument again did you?! I would love to take the bait, but seriously, that argument has surfaced in about 5 different threads in the last 2 months and almost always ends with all parties agreeing to disagree.

 

[waratahjesus]

Reds: disaster in 2009, new management late 2009 +, Super title 2011. This speed of transformation - many argued here in 2010 and well into 2011 - was meant to be impossible in the allegedly talent-stricken Australian rugby come.

With all due respect, the magement at the reds didn't win the title, the force probably did. I believe Eddie jones point "Jones says teams that are doing well - like the Stormers and the Highlanders - have a good work ethic and "high team cohesion" represent what the reds had due to there team being together for so many years. In reality if they hadn't lost a core group of players would they have stuck by quade for so many years? Probably not.

Eddie jones made alot of really valid points. He isn't rambling or talking out if order and to try to press this issue that the reds out thought people and sat down in 2009 and planned what happened is crap. QLD management deserve credit for the rebranding and capitalization of the teams performance, but not or the team itself, John Mitchell and the inept previous management deserve just as much credit for that

 

[Slim 293]

With all due respect, the magement at the reds didn't win the title, the force probably did. I believe Eddie jones point "Jones says teams that are doing well - like the Stormers and the Highlanders - have a good work ethic and "high team cohesion" represent what the reds had due to there team being together for so many years. In reality if they hadn't lost a core group of players would they have stuck by quade for so many years? Probably not.

Eddie jones made alot of really valid points. He isn't rambling or talking out if order and to try to press this issue that the reds out thought people and sat down in 2009 and planned what happened is crap. QLD management deserve credit for the rebranding and capitalization of the teams performance, but not or the team itself, John Mitchell and the inept previous management deserve just as much credit for that

The NSW v Qld rivalry always produces some pearlers...