Does anyone else fear for TPN's Brain?

[liquor box]

I love watching Tatafu Polota-Nau play the game, he plays hard and always seems to enjoy the game, always smiling. But I am really starting to become very concerned about his welfare, and especially his long term prospects of having some type of concussion based injury to his brain.

Last night he seemed to recieve some type of knock that kept him on the ground for a couple of minutes, as play moved on he was running across the screen and seemed to collapse unassisted by any contact, and recieved medical assistance again. He then packed into a scrum before leaving the field again from a contact injury to his head/neck.

I was getting a sick feeling in my stomach that Tatafu Polota-Nau is doing himself harm and destroying his body and mind out of his pure passion for the sport. He is becomming like a boxer who cant quit and just continues to get harmed.

I realise that Boxing is all about trying to inflict physical contact with an opponants head, but the way Tatafu Polota-Nau plays he is going to recieve contact to his head on multiple occasions each week. It is all very well for the commentators to comment in an attempt at humour that his hair will protect him but they should not simply laugh this serious issue off.

Why is he allowed to stay on the field? Why can he play every week?

I think that Rugby needs to have a system where a player who is groggy, concussed or injured above the shoulders is removed from the field, without using up a replacement to be assessed for concussion, if they dont return within 10 minutes then the replacement is finalised, if they are good to go then they can return to the field to continue to play. There are cognitive tests that can be given to players to ensure they are able to continue.

This week we had another former NFL player commit suicide by shooting himself through the heart, his brain will now be able to be asseessed post mortum for injury. This is going to become a huge can of woms for all contact sport, and while it is difficult to compare Rugby to NFL or Boxing, Tatafu Polota-Nau seems to recieve a significant blow to his head at least once a game.

Does anyone else fear for his long term health?

 

[What2040]

I am sure TPN goes down a bit more than he should but then he seems to also take some big hits and he is genuinely bloody hurt. I for one don't want to see any of OUR players or others end up retiring earliy with some permanent damage, particularly brain damage. Physical injuries are a reality of the contact game and are difficult to avoid. Brain injuries that could be prevented are totally unacceptable.

 

[wamberal]

There are pretty strict protocols in place for head knocks.

 

[jay-c]

that fact the tahs coaching allowed him to continue after he got up and fell again last night was dispicable. they are desperate to keep him on the field cause of his importance but that was dangerous last night.

 

[tigerland12]

that fact the tahs coaching allowed him to continue after he got up and fell again last night was dispicable. they are desperate to keep him on the field cause of his importance but that was dangerous last night.

Agreed, he should of been replaced after that. Negligence on the coaching staff and medics there. At no point should a player be allowed to continue if he has been knocked that severly.

 

[Richo]

If there were serious rules about concussions, players would not be allowed to return to the game or play the next week. The fact that both these things occur says to me that rugby does not take concussions seriously enough.

There should be mandatory independent tests after the match -- ie not team medical staff -- and mandatory layoffs in instances of concussion.

 

[vidiot]

Perhaps he had a variant of footballer's migraine (the rare amigrainous version).

It's incomprehensible that TPN being apparently unconscious then dazed and ataxic after a head knock is not a trigger for substiution and a break from the game.

Flahive is a popular figure and clearly very experienced, and I don't know what is happening behind the scenes. But wtf?

 

[fatprop]

If there were serious rules about concussions, players would not be allowed to return to the game or play the next week. The fact that both these things occur says to me that rugby does not take concussions seriously enough.

There should be mandatory independent tests after the match -- ie not team medical staff -- and mandatory layoffs in instances of concussion.

There are tests, all players do a base line test before the season starts. The player's reactions after compared to that after a head trauma.

I find it hard to accept that a doctor would knowingly put a patient in danger. Watching TPN wobble was distressing, but I will assume that the doctors managing him, and TPN himself, thought it was less serious than it actually was.

 

[Muttonbird]

I mean this honestly and it's not a wind-up, but I don't think the game needs TPN. 18 months ago some people thought he was going to be the best in his position but there is clearly something wrong with his attitude/technique. I remember getting laughed at on this very forum for saying that TPN wasn't fit enough for long enough to be considered anywhere near the greats in his position, that he was prone to injury, and even worse, couldn't grasp the idea of body preservation in terms of good technique in the tackle. Sadly, nothing has changed for TPN and I think it's time he gave the game away.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

I don't really think this has anything to do with what level of Rugby TPN is destined to play or continue to play. This could be about a park footy player who just loves to play Rugby & happens to have a bit of a kamakazie tackling technique.

All players can learn to correct their technique, some just take longer than others, some just won't change, & some have not even had it addressed to them by coaching/other staff. I don't know what category TPN falls into. I can't say if he's had plenty of time to fix his technique when I don't even know if anyone at the Tahs has actually told him he has to, some players won't change unless they are told. We can't assume Sharon has told him he needs to change, she may well feel she's stepping on the toes of the coaching staff at the Tahs who may well not have a problem with TPN's 'tackle style'. Put simply I & no one else here (unless closely connected to the Tahs) know.

My personal view is that ultimately anything TPN does regarding his game & how he plays is up to him. I do believe however that he does need to change his technique for his own well being, someone from the Tahs should be working with him on it (in the name of player welfare). Someone should be telling him about the incidents with the NFL players, different sport but still very relevant IMO. TPN is a solid player & a great personality for our game, I believe he can change his technique & remain playing for some years.

 

[liquor box]

If there were serious rules about concussions, players would not be allowed to return to the game or play the next week. The fact that both these things occur says to me that rugby does not take concussions seriously enough.

There should be mandatory independent tests after the match -- ie not team medical staff -- and mandatory layoffs in instances of concussion.

ther have been plans for independant neurologists to be on the sidelines of NFL games to decide a players fitness. This is a great step and stops players doing stupid things to their body, but it wont change their attitude. I hope this is not the mindset of Rugby players!

Unfortunately, despite player education regarding the possible long-term effects of concussions on players, they still don't want to be pulled out of the game. Jacksonville Jaguars RB Maurice Jones-Drew stated, "The bottom line is: You have to be able to put food on the table. No one's going to sign or want a guy who can't stay healthy. I know there will be a day when I'm going to have trouble walking. I realize that. But this is what I signed up for. Injuries are part of the game. If you don't want to get hit, then you shouldn't be playing."

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ycn-10750093

 

[liquor box]

My personal view is that ultimately anything TPN does regarding his game & how he plays is up to him.

but what if one players attitude changes the game for the rest of the players and us supporters? It will only take one massive, but possibly avoidable lawsuit to drastically change the game to avoid further payouts. I like the idea of a player being able to do their own thing, but there are limits to when it should be like this, if a guy is going to harm himself then it has gone too far

 

[liquor box]

There are tests, all players do a base line test before the season starts. The player's reactions after compared to that after a head trauma.

I find it hard to accept that a doctor would knowingly put a patient in danger. Watching TPN wobble was distressing, but I will assume that the doctors managing him, and TPN himself, thought it was less serious than it actually was.

But the issue for the Doctor is that they are being paid to get a player onto the field, not to get them off. The ARU, SANZAR or IRB needs to pay Doctors to take players off the field

 

[AngrySeahorse]

but what if one players attitude changes the game for the rest of the players and us supporters? It will only take one massive, but possibly avoidable lawsuit to drastically change the game to avoid further payouts. I like the idea of a player being able to do their own thing, but there are limits to when it should be like this, if a guy is going to harm himself then it has gone too far

I wasn't looking at it from a legality point of view but you raise a good point.

I don't know how this would work but I would have it as such that any player identified as having a "chronic/serially bad technique" in contact would have to undergo specialist training to fix their technique. It would be closely monitored & documented, all warnings from current research given. The poor technique would be closely documented. Then if the said player goes out & continues as normal then gets hurt & is found to have used the same poor technique as before then perhaps there should be some rule that any lawsuit would become void as they've been given every opportunity to protect themselves. They would still have medical support as per normal by the Rugby club but not the opportunity to drain the club with a big law suit. Does anyone think that may or may not work? I'm unsure, just putting an idea out there. Any law people out there?

 

[liquor box]

I wasn't looking at it from a legality point of view but you raise a good point.

I don't know how this would work but I would have it as such that any player identified as having a "chronic/serially bad technique" in contact would have to undergo specialist training to fix their technique. It would be closely monitored & documented, all warnings from current research given. The poor technique would be closely documented. Then if the said player goes out & continues as normal then gets hurt & is found to have used the same poor technique as before then perhaps there should be some rule that any lawsuit would become void as they've been given every opportunity to protect themselves. They would still have medical support as per normal by the Rugby club but not the opportunity to drain the club with a big law suit. Does anyone think that may or may not work? I'm unsure, just putting an idea out there. Any law people out there?

I think as long as you documented evidence that you tried to change the players technique and made them aware (and probably their bloody agent too) of the dangers in not changing then you would somewhat cover yourself. I think you would have to also change rules to cover yourself, unless there is a rule that prohibits leading with your head or tackling with your head making initial contact then it would be easy foir a player to say the rules are unsafe. I would not have an issue with what is essentially a flying headbutt being outlawed

 

[AngrySeahorse]

I think as long as you documented evidence that you tried to change the players technique and made them aware (and probably their bloody agent too) of the dangers in not changing then you would somewhat cover yourself. I think you would have to also change rules to cover yourself, unless there is a rule that prohibits leading with your head or tackling with your head making initial contact then it would be easy foir a player to say the rules are unsafe. I would not have an issue with what is essentially a flying headbutt being outlawed

True, the bureaucratic side of things would need to be worked over. I wouldn't be surprised if this really starts taking center stage in the not too distant future, it already is a talking point but the legalities are def going to be more in the spot light.

Re the agents, true, they'd have a bit of their pay packet to lose with a player no longer making a living they'd be one to worry about no doubt.

 

[suckerforred]

I have been wondering for a while if at times the best interest of the players are not the driving force behind some of the medical decisions being made. When I worked as a medic for games the players used to get a pissed off at me that I would take them from the field and not them them back on if they had been knocked out. I stand by every single one of my decisions and hope that they now realise that it was in their best interests.

The situation of TPN last night was just ludicrous as was the incident when Harvey got kicked in the head last week. I know that I am on the overly cautious side of head injury management, but really, a player that has been knocked senseless should not be allowed to continue the game. You will note that I said knocked sensless, not knocked out. This is a deliberate choice of words. Concussions can occur without a player being knocked out. I would like to see players that have been knocked out removed from the field immediately and not allowed back for that game, and those that have had a heavy knock use a blood bin type senario such as what Liquor Box suggested. This would be a compremise on my principles but has to be better then what is happening now.

Early one morning last week I happened to see a episode of Catalyst on ABC where they were talking about the NFL studies into brain injuries. It was interesting and good to see that they a trying to determine better management practices based on the research that is being done. The amazing thing about the brain is that it can recover from some injuries..... if given the time. And time is the key. That is why players who have had a concussion NEED to take time out of the game. A comment that I made last year when Berrick step out for a period of time was that I believed that he should have taken the rest of the year totally away from rugby and miss the world cup. I still maintain that that is what he should have done. All has turned out for him and even I enjoyed his play at the end of the year, but players need to remember that you can live without a *insert trophy name here*, it is difficult to live without a properly functioning brain. Independant assessment is one of the keys. I would hope that the team medical personal would not put a players future at risk, but surely they would be under presure from some quarters (players and admin) to pass them fit. Taking the decision out of their hands would relieve that pressure.

Fat prop - do you know if the base lines that are determined each season for the palyers are compared from year to year? Just curious.

 

[rugbysmartarse]

I've heard league players talk about purposely flunking the base line test so that mid season they are still a shot of beating it even with a head injury. I would have thought union players were smarter than this, but then I followed some on twitter. Am sure they cheat it too

 

[liquor box]

Re the agents, true, they'd have a bit of their pay packet to lose with a player no longer making a living they'd be one to worry about no doubt.

I am sure they would arrange a lawyer for a cut of the payout, they would stand to make more money from this than from contracts

 

[waratahjesus]

I've talked before about being involved in the concussion study, having been knocked out a fair few times and having lasting effects from it. whats been said on the issue is right and there are set lengths of time players are required to sit out after testing proves concussion now. there isn't some argument about professional doctors getting players back on the field, its an actual rule for them to follow.

i will say however, the hoopla surrounding TPN on this thread is borderline histeria. Last night was bad, but to suggest that the doctors put him at risk or it was down to his technique is a bit over the top. He doesn't need to give the game away, the doctors arnt in a dimly lit laboratory coming up with ways of punishing him and getting him back on his feet. Unless you were part of the treatment you have no idea if he had any lasting effects whatsoever or if he was fit to continue.

as for the Legal standpoint, i brought this up in the jarred saffy thread, but my understanding is that a contract involves insurance and a player signs liability to themselves. So as long as TPN is responsible for his own injury he isn't suing anyone. Are we going to start a thread on quade not stepping cos he may reinsure his knee?