Declining participation and ARU plans for the future

[dru]

What should be obvious, outside of where we individually stand on the matter, is to ignore Papworth and co may simply not be smart.

Alan Jones also has more influence than "oh he doesn't broadcast here in Melbourne". FWIW he does broadcast in the rugby strongholds of Sydney and Brisbane. And his Foxtel programme broadcasts Nationally. We might recall the Link end days. Once Jones turned up, the Sydney media coincidentally took the appearance of being superbly orchestrated.

Australian rugby would be in a better place without this pack leader braying for ARU scalps.

It may not be in the interests of the sport to think that the petition, signed by many ex Wallabies, is simply a side issue. By the simple fact of who they are, it would be uncomfortable to simply dismiss the document.

Those who support Papworth with great enthusiasm should understand that there are others... who don't.

Either way the matter should not be ignored.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I have no problem for Papworth and Co tabling their views and engaging in constructive debate and defence of their views/interest. But this is the whole issue for many - they have behaved in destructive dialogue and in a highly conflictual manner played out for all to see. This just not help move forward more constructive working relationships required to progress the wider games interests in this country.

All it does is create further antagonism amongst all parties involved. Very churlish and unprofessional and displays very poor leadership which does little to garner wider public support for their grievances or confidence in their leadership (and hence any investment in SS in view of very poor leadership behaviour exhibited).

Sadly contrary to what they would like to hear is that by way they are going about this all they are doing is garnering further support for the ARU and less support for their own grievances amongst wider public.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

And there lies the problem - Papworth and co probably do have very valid points but the way they have gone about it means very few people in wider public are willing to listen and hence support their cause. The focus instead shifts to their poor behaviour rather than their grievances and what the solutions are. I bet most would not even know what specifically they are seeking in terms of changes!

It is a pity Papworth does not have someone to mentor him on this on how to table more constructive dialogue to create better case for change.

 

[I like to watch]

This was a hot topic at the start of this year,and again after they released the latest annual report.
The ARU has no intention of changing anything.

In January, Pulver made the pissing it up against the wall remark.
And, later after the release of the latest annual report,Pulver dismissed Papworth, with claims of spending on grassroots that were not supported by the Annual report.

So, the Clubs have been making their points, and have been treated like mugs.

There is plenty of blame to share, no one is blameless.

 

[Dave Beat]

The 2 posts above was well said, possibly some very strong, fair points, articulated poorly.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The response to the articles on this site though suggest that there are far more rugby fans outside the Shute Shield tent than inside.

I'll use myself as an example - I'm a hardcore rugby fan, player, ref, writer. I watch the Shute Shield on Saturday arvos if I'm around the house. I went to North Sydney Oval to watch the GF. But do I actively support the Shute Shield? No. Do I have a specific club I support? No.

I care far more about the NRC, Waratahs and Wallabies. I think the vast majority of rugby fans in Australia fall into this camp.

I think one of the problems of Papworth, Begg and co is they are living in an echo chamber, surrounded by old club-heads like themselves. They think they are doing God's work here, because the people they surround themselves with are telling them that. But they can't see the forest for the trees.

I care a lot about junior club rugby, but when it boils down to it I don't really care about the Shute Shield. If we shifted the debate to the former (in the clubs vs ARU capacity) then I'd have a very different view to the one I have when it's just the Shute Shield teams squaring off against Pulver.
.

I come at it from a slightly different place. I have been a Randwick fan for as long as I can remember. My father was one so naturely I followed. I've also played for the club at junior rep level and later Colts. I have also been an avid follower of the Saturday game since I've been at least 12. So we're talking about 18 years or so.

But despite my club allegiances I am a fan of the game first and always. I want what is best for it and that is the NRC.

 

[I like to watch]

It's not SS or NRC.

If it was, then they would be having the gf a month after the NRC started.

Look at it like a union going on strike.
It's a negotiating tactic.

 

[dru]

It's not SS or NRC.

You dont think there was any connection in the timing of Papworth's missive leading in to the NRC final? A more cynical move has never been made.

The NRC forces the Papworth's hand as the SS becomes increasingly irrelevant as it's success increases. It was to his "benefit" (what a warped world) to damage Aus rugby by shifting media attention away from the NRC achievements of 2016 at that time.

I doubt this "strike" does much more than create a pyrrhic engagement for the SS clubs. The danger to the ARU is a cranky fan base, not a majority of the fan base, but an important component. If "strike" winds them up, no doubt Papworth sees it as another "win". (As I said, what a warped world.)

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

It's not SS or NRC.

If it was, then they would be having the gf a month after the NRC started.

Look at it like a union going on strike.
It's a negotiating tactic.

I didn't intend for it to be an SS or NRC. Preferably both. According to a discussion on fb the ARU have been consulted on the changes. But there does seem to be the idea that the compromise should be the ARU moving the NRC. Considering it's the SS clubs who want to alter the calendar and the ARU are apparently fine with it, I am of the opinion that it's the SS that need to find the workable solution that fits in the current calendar not the ARU.

 

[Quick Hands]

Australian Rugby seems to get bogged down in tradition. The majority of our players still come from GPS schools (in 2016 for fuck sake) despite the fact that the vast majority of our natural talent lies in a completely different demographic.

Actually in times gone by, there were usually just as many players from the state school system/club rugby than there were from GPS schools. The contraction of the base to the GPS has occurred since the advent of professionalism in the mid 1990s. The ARU and the NSWRU in this state have presided over this.

So the "bogged down in tradition" line doesn't really apply, as the GPS domination is a relatively new phenomenon.

For example, the Australian schoolboys of 1981-82 contained:

Brisbane GPS
Brisbane Grammar - 2
Southport School - 1
Terrace - 1
Nudgee - 1

Brisbane AIC (then known by a different name)
Marist Ashgrove - 1

Canberra Catholic
St Edmund's ACT - 3

ACT government
Stirling College - 1

CHS
James Ruse Ag - 1
Hurlstone Ag - 1
Epping Boys - 3 (including on B. Papworth)
Crows Nest Boys - 1
Hunters Hill - 1
Sydney Boys - 1 **
Matraville - 1
Balgowlah Boys - 1
Carringbah - 1


Sydney CAS
Waverley - 2

Sydney GPS
Scots - 1
High - 1 **
Joeys - 1
Shore -1

**Sydney Boys' HS is a CHS school which plays many of its sports within the GPS

 

[wamberal]

I don't think it is just the result of professionalism, QH. The huge demographic changes that are obvious in Sydney and other cities are playing a part.



My high school used to play rugby fairly seriously (if not very successfully), now the game has just disappeared, along with much of the Anglo-Saxon majority amongst its students.


The game is also struggling in some of the GPS schools, isn't it? Will Sydney BHS ever produce another elite rugby player? What about Sydney Grammar?


Apart from anything else, the selective schools are now focused wholly and solely on academic success, there is not much, if any, interest in the more rounded education that was once the norm.


And the PI kids are quite happy with the possibility of a professional sporting career, it is just that there are far more opportunities in the competing codes.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^ No, professionalism isn't the only cause, but what seems to have happened is that during the JON years that the ARU completely took its eye off the grassroots and focussed on the elite level. This has been coming for a while, it's just taken 15 or 16 years for the decline at the bottom to hit the game at the top.

The "pissing up against the wall" comment really has ignited what's been sitting there for a while.

 

[wamberal]

I suppose it is also the case that the grass roots has always existed, even back in the days when the national team was struggling.


In a way, that is the nub of it, I reckon. Rugby has always been a grass roots game because it was amateur. Going professional changed nothing at the grass roots, and given our relative status as a sport it is hard to see how it could have changed things for the better. We have just never had the money.


I think the simple truth is that the grass roots are the base, and the base is shrinking, frankly I do not see much that the ARU can do about it. Too many factors are outside its control, too many cashed up competitors. Not to mention the demographic changes.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

With world rugby going through massive growth spurt with the $100m Chinese investment, new super rugby franchises with Japan, Argentina, growth of 7's, new North American semi-pro league etc etc.....I really do believe that highly possible that in next 5-10 years will see some serious big money (more likely outside Asian money) invested to establish a professional domestic competition which will seek to acquire the best players from league and union in this country. League should indeed be very afraid of this possibility. As oz offers a very attractive sporting market, and growth of world game and poor management of game in this country will see others with opportunities to revolutionise the game here with a professional domestic competition with their own bent without the distraction of other parties such as ARU or SS driving the agenda.

I also reckon strong chance could be chinese money behind it, particularly given large investments chinese already making in oz and their own massive investment in rugby they are making.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I think the simple truth is that the grass roots are the base, and the base is shrinking, frankly I do not see much that the ARU can do about it. Too many factors are outside its control, too many cashed up competitors. Not to mention the demographic changes.

Is the base really "shrinking". It might feel like that for mens xvs in Sydney/NSW, but for just about every other demographic and locale there's been pretty strong growth.

Broadening the base

 

[dru]

Salient point this. Sydney hosts enthusiastic, often political and very noisy elements of the rugby fraternity which can coincide with determined naval gazing.

 

[p.Tah]

Actually in times gone by, there were usually just as many players from the state school system/club rugby than there were from GPS schools. The contraction of the base to the GPS has occurred since the advent of professionalism in the mid 1990s. The ARU and the NSWRU in this state have presided over this.

So the "bogged down in tradition" line doesn't really apply, as the GPS domination is a relatively new phenomenon.

For example, the Australian schoolboys of 1981-82 contained:

Brisbane GPS
Brisbane Grammar - 2
Southport School - 1
Terrace - 1
Nudgee - 1

Brisbane AIC (then known by a different name)
Marist Ashgrove - 1

Canberra Catholic
St Edmund's ACT - 3

ACT government
Stirling College - 1

CHS
James Ruse Ag - 1
Hurlstone Ag - 1
Epping Boys - 3 (including on B. Papworth)
Crows Nest Boys - 1
Hunters Hill - 1
Sydney Boys - 1 **
Matraville - 1
Balgowlah Boys - 1
Carringbah - 1


Sydney CAS
Waverley - 2

Sydney GPS
Scots - 1
High - 1 **
Joeys - 1
Shore -1

**Sydney Boys' HS is a CHS school which plays many of its sports within the GPS

This was also the era before 'rugby scholarships' became as popular and the rugby programs at the GPS school became as sophisticated as they are now. Boys with an aptitude for rugby are being drawn to the GPS programs.
Does this mean our player base has shrunk or we are concentrating it? Hard to tell.
Not saying the GPS program is good or bad for rugby. It's just very different landscape to 30 years ago.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

[quote="wamberal, post: 900123, member: ]


I think the simple truth is that the grass roots are the base, and the base is shrinking, frankly I do not see much that the ARU can do about it. Too many factors are outside its control, too many cashed up competitors. Not to mention the demographic changes.

Is the base really "shrinking". It might feel like that for mens xvs in Sydney/NSW, but for just about every other demographic and locale there's been pretty strong growth.

Broadening the base[/quote]


According the Aust. Sports Commissions report both the Sydney Sub-Districts and Juniors witnessed some growth this past season. Not a great deal of growth (1% for subbies and like 5% for juniors) but still growth. If nothing else it appears to signal a stabilisation.

But you're fairly on the money with growth external to the fishbowl that is Sydney. Most if not all of the country regions saw growth ranging between 6 and 11%. From my understanding both Melbourne and Perth saw reasonable growth as well. Haven't heard anything about Qld but from what Reg posted regarding the Reds junior 7s program re: the uptake at his sons school we may be looking at reasonable growth on that front as well.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

With world rugby going through massive growth spurt with the $100m Chinese investment, new super rugby franchises with Japan, Argentina, growth of 7's, new North American semi-pro league etc etc...I really do believe that highly possible that in next 5-10 years will see some serious big money (more likely outside Asian money) invested to establish a professional domestic competition which will seek to acquire the best players from league and union in this country. League should indeed be very afraid of this possibility. As oz offers a very attractive sporting market, and growth of world game and poor management of game in this country will see others with opportunities to revolutionise the game here with a professional domestic competition with their own bent without the distraction of other parties such as ARU or SS driving the agenda.

I also reckon strong chance could be chinese money behind it, particularly given large investments chinese already making in oz and their own massive investment in rugby they are making.

Haha. I was actually watching the Womens qualifier series being played out in Hong Kong last night. The game featured both Japan and Fiji. Japan were clearly the better team winning 55 to nil.

Anyway, as I was watching I was considering the recent news of Alisports investing in the game and their intent on setting up both Men's and Women's pro leagues. One option I think should be floated is an Asia-Pacific league, essentially a Women's version of Super Rugby but with a more AP focus. With both the Hong Kong and Japanese women qualifying for the WRWC I think there could be an opportunity to build something within the region.

Perhaps an 8 team league with a team from both Japan and Hong Kong, 2 or 3 from Australia and 3 or 4 based in China itself. Played on a home and away schedule plus a 4 team finals series to start. With the recent drive to get more and more Women's sport on Australian TV and the entry of the likes of Alisports I think such a model could be quite interesting.

For the sake of just spitballing it. If we had two go with just two to start I'd pick a team in each Brisbane and Sydney. Look for smaller venues such as Redfern Oval (5,000) and another similar sized venue in Brisbane. Venues that could be feasibly filled early on. Look for Alisports to cover the costs of travel and accommodations and have the squad run out of the existing infrastructure used by the Super Rugby franchises.

If we started with a third it would be a toss up between Canberra or Melbourne for mine.

 

[Quick Hands]

This was also the era before 'rugby scholarships' became as popular and the rugby programs at the GPS school became as sophisticated as they are now. Boys with an aptitude for rugby are being drawn to the GPS programs.
Does this mean our player base has shrunk or we are concentrating it? Hard to tell.
Not saying the GPS program is good or bad for rugby. It's just very different landscape to 30 years ago.

It's a bit more complex than just GPS rugby scholarships. The drawing power of scholarships has been increased by the collapse in rugby at junior club level and in the CHS system. The CHS system relied on having a critical mass of boys who were playing club rugby on a Saturday to fill their teams. Once that ceased to be the case, the CHS mid-week competitions folded because of a lack of players. Add to this the decline in the number of teachers at state schools who were willing/able to coach rugby. What then happens is that those boys left in the state system have no mid-week school rugby and junior club rugby in the older age groups is quite weak. So aspiration types are more likely to apply for and/or accept a scholarship.