Dear Thomond ...

[Scotty]

Yeah, that's my no. 7 above. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

It was pretty blatant, and for the record it was AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) that he took out. Although I still am not sure where all the Wallaby backs were. From memory it was handled from the lineout on the other side by Burgess, Brown and Giteau and there didn't seem to be anyone else in the back line. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was waaay behind the play and I have no idea where Mortlock or Barnes were?

Did anyone else notice the ABs using an old technique at breakdowns - players not really bound, in front of the ball who just subtly interfere with defenders particularly as the ball is being cleared. Creates a nice safe zone for the 9, and a bit of a channel either side for pick and go. Used to be called the "pillars". Very effective, and unnoticed by the ref. If they can get away with it, good luck to them

The ABs have been doing this for years, and I don't ever remember them getting pinged for it. I think at least 2-3 tries have resulted in either the 'pillars' protecting (read shepherding) the half or players cleaning out about 5 metres past the ruck (and cleaning out guys that have no involvement in the ruck).

Rodders is an expert at the former and McCaw an expert at the latter. Kaino is learning very well from both of them.

 

[naza]

The ABs have been doing this for years, and I don't ever remember them getting pinged for it. I think at least 2-3 tries have resulted in either the 'pillars' protecting (read shepherding) the half or players cleaning out about 5 metres past the ruck (and cleaning out guys that have no involvement in the ruck).

They're not exactly subtle about it either which mystifies me. They constantly get away with murder and yet we were the ones being pinged for a genuine contest. Ridiculous.

And then people wonder why we're short of numbers at the next breakdown.

 

[Thomond78]

a) He's Leinster, not mine.
b) Rolling away is currently subject to a brutal crack-down up here. Get used to it, boys.
c) On a wider issue - "pedantic" refs. Well, fuck it, if the law says it's a penalty, it's a penalty. If it's a free kick, it's a free kick. Play advantage, sure, but if you run it on the basis that refs can just ignore bits of the lawbook to suit themselves, or what's perceived as being good TV, then you're heading off into anarchy. Refs should crack down, viciously, in the first twenty minutes. Players then know that they can't get away with shit, and won't try it; at which stage everything goes swimmingly.
d) Do you actually think, for one second, that I was going to get out of the scratcher at an ungodly hour of a Saturday morning to watch the Bledisloe Cup being turned into John O'Neill's touring circus? : Of course not. I haven't a notion what you're on about. ;D

 

[naza]

d) Do you actually think, for one second, that I was going to get out of the scratcher at an ungodly hour of a Saturday morning to watch the Bledisloe Cup being turned into John O'Neill's touring circus? : Of course not. I haven't a notion what you're on about. ;D

You may want to check out an invention known as the VCR.

 

[the gambler]

7. The ruck near the end when Hynes got isolated and just as Barnes? was coming to the rescue, Sivivatu runs right round the ruck to tackle Barnes without the ball just before he gets to the ruck.

8. Offside. Pick your ruck.

How someone can just ref one side like that AT THIS LEVEL is astonishing. And we've got him again. Maybe he's stupid enough to even things up in our favour.

9. Giteau getting tackled high and without the ball right in front of both the ref and a touch judge who did nothing.

It really was an amazingly poor performance from Lewis. I was down in the front row watching him warm up and he looked overweight. After a couple of jogs and stretches you could tell he was struggling with the heat and humidity so perhaps thats what clouded his performance.

You could tell by half time that he was only reffing one side and he only got worse in the 2nd half. I dont like to whinge about refs but that really was the most one sided (and hence worst) reffing displays I have ever seen.

 

[Gagger]

There's a welsh referee who's taken a different view of Mr Lewis' performance on my blog here: http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/2008/11/referees-for-wallabies-euro-tour.html

BigDai said...

As a referee, I have enormous respect for Lewis. He is considered one of the best whistles around. The Aus problem on Sat was that they failed to adapt to the NH ELV (which we will all be playing next year). Whilst, McCaw was no angel, Aus failed to stay on their feet at the tackle, killed ball and handled on the floor like it was only going to be a FK. Frankly, I would have binned someone before half time. Lewis must have gived you leeway because of the unfamiliarity.
As for the scrums, well you have improved, but the loosehead, looked to take it down every time he came under pressure. Invariably it went down every time on the first engagement on NZ ball. Its cynical cheating and its a disgrace that Aus are obviously coached in such negative play.
You showed some great attacking play on Saturday but deserved to loose because you failed to adapt and play positive rugby.

Feel free to put him straight

 

[cyclopath]

Well. I'll have a go.
Let's see...
PROBLEM - we have a pack not well renowned for scrummaging in recent years. We tend to get hammered by the refs at scrums because of this perceived and / or real weakness.
SOLUTION - coach the team to collapse the scrum repeatedly deliberately to achieve.....oh, that's it, a penalty for the oppo!
Genius work there BigDaiLeekMuncher!
Oh yeah, but if the NZ LHP went down it was clearly our THPs fault??? So clear it could be seen by the ref through the scrum. Apparently Irish eyes do not only smile, they have x-ray capabilities.
BigDai - you're a peanut!

 

[Pfitzy]

BigDai should go and look at the tape. The incident where Robinson got penalised was clearly Tialata's fault (shoulders no lower than hips), and if Lewis could tell what was going on from the opposite side of the scrum, having never (I suspect) played prop, then he's a freakin genius.

 

[Virgil]

PROBLEM - we have a pack not well renowned for scrummaging in recent years. We tend to get hammered by the refs at scrums because of this perceived and / or real weakness.

Which is a turn around from when Refs used to protect and favour your scrums due the fact they were perceived as being weak.

No i dont believe im fishing, i clearly remember the Bill Young days.

 

[Pfitzy]

And you're absolutely right Virg - those were the days when the scrum basically wasn't allowed to be a contest. Young got away with a lot before the refs started to crack down on him. Woodcock does exactly the same things though, so why is it a problem when an Aussie prop bores in, yet for the same crime a Kiwi gets noted as a master scrummager? :nta:

 

[Ash]

I don't think that Woodcock can be compared to Young in anyway at all for illegal play at scrum time. On Saturday Baxter was going down because he couldn't take the hit, not because Woodcock was boring in at all. Although, I have since deleted my recording of the game and can't be bothered to download it to check...yet.

However, most of the time it was certainly Tialata going down to Robinson. The Welsh dude is oh so wrong. I sort of doubt that Tialata is a tight head, and definitely not a test level tight head at that.

 

[Virgil]

Tialata was certainly going down as well, the AB's can count themselves lucky he wasnt pinged.
And your right hes not looking at this stage as being up to Test quality as a TH

 

[Scotty]

So now that we have gone past the Young days we are onto the Tialata days, thanks to Mr Lewis?

 

[Virgil]

So now that we have gone past the Young days we are onto the Tialata days, thanks to Mr Lewis?

To be honest we are hoping here that Afoa will come right and we wont need NT to play TH again.

 

[Jury]

Tialata was certainly going down as well, the AB's can count themselves lucky he wasnt pinged.
And your right hes not looking at this stage as being up to Test quality as a TH

Couldn't agree more, Virg. I don't think he's up to it either. I don't like him. I think he's a thug. I don't think he has a high enough work rate, but I'm pretty sure he'll be persisted with and when he reaches or gains parity with being average we will applaud him. :

As for Woodcock on Baxter ... seriously? Woodcock on Baxter? Woodcock has made mince meat of better front rowers than Baxter. Not bad for a myth eh? Personally I think of him as a Quality Bogan.

 

[PhucNgo]

The other aspect that bothered me was how often he got in the way. The Kiwis used him as a shepherd on several occasions. He moves about as well as David Fitter.

LOL!
Actually, it brings up another issue. Did anyone else notice the ABs using an old technique at breakdowns - players not really bound, in front of the ball who just subtly interfere with defenders particularly as the ball is being cleared. Creates a nice safe zone for the 9, and a bit of a channel either side for pick and go. Used to be called the "pillars". Very effective, and unnoticed by the ref. If they can get away with it, good luck to them.

Also brings to mind an issue with AB rucking which I've got a particular grievance about but doesn't get much air time. Its one of those ones where its all good fun until someone loses an eye, if you know what I mean. The AB's have taken to cleaning out/counter rucking by going in across the back of an (oncoming) opposing player, grabbing the guy around the midrift and falling to one side. That's ok, but on an increasing number of occasions recently So'ialo and Weepu in particular, have been using a front-on headlock (ala grapple-tackle style) and then falling (almost ripping their heads off) to the side. Someone is gonna end up with a busted neck soon.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Oh what a dream to have a referee in the studio wired and active and can officiate on events missed by the fools on the ground.

 

[Virgil]

Tialata was certainly going down as well, the AB's can count themselves lucky he wasnt pinged.
And your right hes not looking at this stage as being up to Test quality as a TH

Couldn't agree more, Virg. I don't think he's up to it either. I don't like him. I think he's a thug. I don't think he has a high enough work rate, but I'm pretty sure he'll be persisted with and when he reaches or gains parity with being average we will applaud him. :

As for Woodcock on Baxter ... seriously? Woodcock on Baxter? Woodcock has made mince meat of better front rowers than Baxter. Not bad for a myth eh? Personally I think of him as a Quality Bogan.

I look at a guy like Macintosh who really looks the goods, and wonder why he cant play TH. Hes bigger and taller then Hayman (if you believe his stats). Now i know nothing about frontrow play, but we are well covered on the LH side with Woody and others.
What we need is a decent rock at number 3, like we have had in the past with Olo and Hayman.

 

[Jury]

Tialata was certainly going down as well, the AB's can count themselves lucky he wasnt pinged.
And your right hes not looking at this stage as being up to Test quality as a TH

Couldn't agree more, Virg. I don't think he's up to it either. I don't like him. I think he's a thug. I don't think he has a high enough work rate, but I'm pretty sure he'll be persisted with and when he reaches or gains parity with being average we will applaud him. :

As for Woodcock on Baxter ... seriously? Woodcock on Baxter? Woodcock has made mince meat of better front rowers than Baxter. Not bad for a myth eh? Personally I think of him as a Quality Bogan.

I look at a guy like Macintosh who really looks the goods, and wonder why he cant play TH. Hes bigger and taller then Hayman (if you believe his stats). Now i know nothing about frontrow play, but we are well covered on the LH side with Woody and others.
What we need is a decent rock at number 3, like we have had in the past with Olo and Hayman.

I agree (unless they know Tialata isn't up to it and are already grooming a replacement ...). I wonder what the chances are of converting Mac to LH? He seems like an amiable enough fulla and doesn't mind hard work. Fingers crossed.

 

[Thomond78]

The other aspect that bothered me was how often he got in the way. The Kiwis used him as a shepherd on several occasions. He moves about as well as David Fitter.

LOL!
Actually, it brings up another issue. Did anyone else notice the ABs using an old technique at breakdowns - players not really bound, in front of the ball who just subtly interfere with defenders particularly as the ball is being cleared. Creates a nice safe zone for the 9, and a bit of a channel either side for pick and go. Used to be called the "pillars". Very effective, and unnoticed by the ref. If they can get away with it, good luck to them.

Also brings to mind an issue with AB rucking which I've got a particular grievance about but doesn't get much air time. Its one of those ones where its all good fun until someone loses an eye, if you know what I mean. The AB's have taken to cleaning out/counter rucking by going in across the back of an (oncoming) opposing player, grabbing the guy around the midrift and falling to one side. That's ok, but on an increasing number of occasions recently So'ialo and Weepu in particular, have been using a front-on headlock (ala grapple-tackle style) and then falling (almost ripping their heads off) to the side. Someone is gonna end up with a busted neck soon.

Unfortunately, someone has. The coroner's report on the poor guy who died about a month after having his neck broken playing for Neath was more or less to the effect that it was a clear-out that killed him.

It was a "technical" breach of the laws - Nigel Whitehouse was reffing it. Now, while both the coroner, and I think all of us, accept that there's a margin of appreciation, and we usually know the line and don't cross it, I've been saying for a long time that there's a lot of shit done at ruckwang that's plain dangerous and should be stopped. Diving clear-outs are dangerous, have killed, and must be stopped. Hooking the leg, ditto; stop it. And this way of clearing out is dangerous, so stop it.

The one thing going right in reffing at the moment is, keep people on their feet at the breakdown - and it's working in the NH. Keep that crack-down going, and we might just see classic, bound-together-and-sweep, Scottish/AB rucking come back. And none the worse for that, I may add, as refs here appear to be coming back around to the idea that a small tickle on the back never hurt anyone and is certainly preferable to a head-first clear out.