Deans pushing for domestic comp in Oz

[Lindommer]

Cutter, the chances of rugby being played at Manly Oval after August are about nil. Same goes for North Sydney, Chatswood, University and Coogee Ovals, all of which have a cricket pitch on their rugby areas. The moment Saturday rugby fixtures are finished the relevant council (or Sydney Uni) take the goalposts down and start rolling the cricket pitch. In fact if any of these teams have an away game the last round they have to train the last week (and semis, if they progress) with the centre square roped off and no goalposts.

Why do you think these venues never get allocated a finals match?

 

[Ash]

Stick me in the basket of hating games on a cricket ground as well. I mark the cricket pitch as a stupid factor that shouldn't affect the game - watch how people avoid getting tackled on it. Play on one and you will understand.

Plus the games are so very very hard to watch. The Sydney Uni ground is rubbish to watch a game. And so is the North Sydney Oval. Hell, the grandstands at the North Sydney Oval aren't even laid out correctly to view a rectangular pitch game. It's a farce.

I don't think that having any games on a cricket ground will entice extra spectators either.

All you need for a MARC is a fenced ground that can sit a few thousand tops. Grounds like Eastwood, or even a subbies ground like at Dave-Phillips is not far off. If Paramatta and Concord are too expensive, then use a smaller ground, or pay to fence one of a suitable size with a grandstand.

 

[Jets]

I personally think a second coming of the ARC would be welcome now with a few changes.

Firstly I don't think that the players require to be contracted or recieve match payments. I had a mate in the Aces team and he missed 1 day of work because of playing. If the players don't have a current contract they will play to be seen and hopefully pick one up with a Super team. The contracted players will be required to recieve money as part of their CBA or else RUPA will call games off.

Secondly don't mess with the laws. While a lot of people enjoyed the ARC using all of the ELV's it just made it hard for any new fans to the game. This was made worse by the fact that the World Cup was being run at the same time with a different set of laws.

Don't have the comp start in a World Cup year. While 3 out of every 4 years we struggle for rugby to watch in Sept-Oct during the World Cup most rugby fans will spend their nights watching RWC games and may not make it out to ARC games.

I like the idea of suburban grounds. But they would have to be able to provide the appropriate facilities.

Can we also change the names of some of the teams. Ballymore Tornadoes (I like the Ballymore part it's just we don't have many tornadoes) and East Coast Aces (WTF?????) didn't do a lot for me.

The television environment has changed since 2007 as well. One HD need content and this is something that the ARC could provide.

I don't exprct this comp to make money but like others have said the ARU can cut the costs and save quite a lot.

I would like to think in 10 years time that TV stations could actually pay a pretty peny to broadcast the comp. If Fox is paying money for QLD Roar games and the NBL then they will pay for anything.

 

[PaarlBok]

See, you cant even get your own provincial competition going but you want the 15th team. :nta:

That's not relevant to getting a 5th team.

Thats exactly where the Kings started their champagn. The Argies is on their way to do the same, playing in SA provincial Vodacom competition.

I don't think it's relevant PB because the biggest thing stopping an Aussie domestic comp is money. This won't be an issue for Melbourne. They have quite a few sponsors knocking down their doors by all accounts and they get decent crowds for their matches IMO.

So why did the sponsor then withdraw their money from their bid?

 

[PaarlBok]

See, you cant even get your own provincial competition going but you want the 15th team. :nta:

"Want" - that is a key word and is not the same as "deserve". There is nothing wrong in wanting.

I'd take the provincial comp as we had for one year in 2007 any day of the week over the 5th Oz Super team. But the ARC lost money in 2007 and we even had to pay TV to have 2 games a week broadcast. If we had an ARC, 4 Super teams would be enough and our standard would be higher, just as the SAfrican Super teams are of a higher standard for having a Currie Cup comp and not having to take unproven players directly out of local club rugby.

So; we want the 5th Oz Super team and the 20 domestic Super games a year that will come with the conference system, because we don't have an ARC. We want it even though it will reduce our chances of winning the Super competition, not that they are ever very high.

That's what we want, and why - or more correctly, because not everybody is for the 5th Oz team - that's what Oz rugby fans who want a 5th team want and why they want it.

Do we think we deserve it? Hell, no.

Are we going to take it if we are offered it? Hell, yes.

Lee you are a greedy bunch.

I dont want you lot to get that 15th team because you dont deserve it. This new S15 format will kill the CC & NPC in the future, you cant get a local provincial competition on your own and need SA & NZ to sponsor your game to it.

and then you get Aussie posting here, why should the Kings play in the Aus one?

 

[PaarlBok]

See, you cant even get your own provincial competition going but you want the 15th team. :nta:

That's not relevant to getting a 5th team.

Thats exactly where the Kings started their champagn. The Argies is on their way to do the same, playing in SA provincial Vodacom competition.

We have a red hot favourite for the next Robbie award :thumb

Was it the champagne?

No its that NTA picture that squtter my brains. :nta: Biff is still de moer I beat him on the Robbie one, dot worry Biff, you can have one, I have two.

 

[Biffo]

See, you cant even get your own provincial competition going but you want the 15th team. :nta:

That's not relevant to getting a 5th team.

Thats exactly where the Kings started their champagn. The Argies is on their way to do the same, playing in SA provincial Vodacom competition.

We have a red hot favourite for the next Robbie award :thumb

Was it the champagne?

No its that NTA picture that squtter my brains. :nta: Biff is still de moer I beat him on the Robbie one, dot worry Biff, you can have one, I have two.

Mate, you are 1/100 for next year's Robbie - and firming. :yay

 

[cyclopath]

Seriously PB, this Chicken Little routine of the sky falling in and the CC and NPC going the way of the dodo because of the S15 is getting old.
Let's just see what happens.
Like the response by some to the whole ELV process it sounds a bit like hysterics before a ball has been kicked or passed in anger.
Do you seriously think the Kings will be anything but cannon fodder to finish below the Cheetahs and Lions in the SA pecking order?

 

[Biffo]

and then you get Aussie posting here, why should the Kings play in the Aus one?

Because SANZAR decided that the format for S15 would be three conferences - one RSA, one Australia, one NZ.

You are asking SANZAR to rescind that decision and give RSA a sixth team.

 

[PaarlBok]

Seriously PB, this Chicken Little routine of the sky falling in and the CC and NPC going the way of the dodo because of the S15 is getting old.
Let's just see what happens.
Like the response by some to the whole ELV process it sounds a bit like hysterics before a ball has been kicked or passed in anger.
Do you seriously think the Kings will be anything but cannon fodder to finish below the Cheetahs and Lions in the SA pecking order?

OK I'll start at the start then. SA Rugby is much more provincial driven compare to NZ. Our players have central contracts but only the top S14 provinces. To explain in short a talented rugby players career start after schoolboy in a Academy in one of the provinces, mostly after played Craven Week as a schoolboy. He plays U19 CC, if he is lucky he'll get SA U20 in the WC tournament, U21 CC , Vodacom Cup, CC, S14 & Springbok. The S14 is any professional player in SA dream or the place he'll aim at to make a useful living or career out of the game. At the moment only 3 or 4 players from the smaller unions like Griquas, Boland or Leapards plays S14 rugby. This mean that the players that plays for Griquas, Boland, Leopards, the Kings pronvinces (SWD, EP & Border) , Pumas is usually either palyers just out of U21 range or older players come back from NH or S14 franchises. The timeframe left for the CC after this new formatted S15 is way to short to accomodate 8 teams. Meaning at least 2 small provinces from the Premium CC league will have to go to the first division. This meaning structure wise we cut the Boland , Leopards and probably Griquas from our top rugby chain. Meaning we'll lost 30 x 3 professional players a rugby career. This weekend our two bottom Premier CC teams Boland & Leopards will play promotion relegation matches against the two top teams in the first division (SWD & Pumas). A union like Boland that dont have money have put out a Million Rand bonus to their players if they can keep Premium League status. Here is the link (unfortunately in afrikaans) http://www.dieburger.com/Content/Sp...-10-2009-12-19/Ses_nulle_om_Boland_te_versoen
Thats just to illustrate the importance of CC Premium League meaning for a province in SA. This wont happen with the new format because there wont be small province either giving promising young players a change to play in the top league or older and settled players to play them back to S15 franchised provinces.

That bring me to how strong a team we can put together as a extra franchise. Myself think you can go back to the BIL tour in SA. The tour gave us a oppertunity to measure our player stock against the best the 4 home Unions that the NH could offfer. That was international oppisition and two matches for myself was important, the Royal team (suppose to be the best players from the Vodacom Competition that ran the same time as the S14 competition) but the team was basically Griquas (who won that trophe) and a few from the Leopards (including the coach). Well they lost that match by the skin of their neck. The other game was the first game by the Kings. Also a close match.

This is only the top players at the moment, what about the future for a Kings franchise? I'll bet you 8 out of SA top 20 rugby schools are from that region at the moment. If they get a good academy going and hold on their player stock they can built a strong structure.

PE, Dispatch and Uitenhage has always been a strong rugby supported place like all the other provinces in SA. Alan Solomons and Robbie Kempsen started coaching EP in the first division and show results in their first year.

This is what SA can offer and what they can lose with this stupid idea called S15 rugby, my question is what do Melbourne offer? Not sure but I am sure they cant even match the black populations in the Kings area numbers to grow the game. No team, no structure, no stadium, sweet nothing.

 

[cyclopath]

Thanks for all that PB. I was aware of the provincial system you have, but I fail to see how this will equate to a "strong" S15 franchise, when SA (like Aus) has struggled most seasons to have more than 1 or 2 competitive teams. The Cheetahs are "strong" below the S14/15 level, but come up short in the Super comp.
I am not saying the Aus one will be strong, but I see little evidence to make me believe the SA one would either.
What you still haven't explained is how it will ruin the CC? Why can't they just overlap a few weeks, so all these "professional" players can still play (by your admission most are not destined for S15 anyway). Where would these players be lost to? If they mostly are well below S15 level, would NH teams really want them all? I doubt it. It's mainly speculation and fear-mongering. You have elaborated is what the provincial system means in SA, and so what it would be to lose. I understand that, but there are two separate issues, in my opinion.
And once again, there is a stadium in Melbourne - the Rectangular Stadium.

 

[PaarlBok]

Thanks for all that PB. I was aware of the provincial system you have, but I fail to see how this will equate to a "strong" S15 franchise, when SA (like Aus) has struggled most seasons to have more than 1 or 2 competitive teams. The Cheetahs are "strong" below the S14/15 level, but come up short in the Super comp.

The Cheetahs will be a force in futher no doubt. Read my SA Matters thread, I did the explaining there. The Lions is the only one that will suffer next year. They started a new cycle in this years CC after Loffie left but I think with Dick Muir joining there I have no doubt they will be strong much sooner then later. Jake White had his finger in that pie and I saw a improvement already. It look like they may lose one or two players as current (Luddick and the 8th man) to the Sharks but they'll have a few new signings like Chavangha from the Stormers. One place they show big improvement is their defense.

What you still haven't explained is how it will ruin the CC? Why can't they just overlap a few weeks, so all these "professional" players can still play (by your admission most are not destined for S15 anyway). Where would these players be lost to? If they mostly are well below S15 level, would NH teams really want them all? I doubt it. It's mainly speculation and fear-mongering. You have elaborated is what the provincial system means in SA, and so what it would be to lose. I understand that, but there are two separate issues, in my opinion.
And once again, there is a stadium in Melbourne - the Rectangular Stadium.

Nope you dont understand the SA provincial setup. A province like Griquas have some excellent players and nearly made it to the semis of the CC. In that team were a number of players that will make any S14 franchise proud but the Cheetahs used their own players. The same apply to the other small provinces. The Stormers never use Boland players , it will be dumb not to use the WP sqaud first because its about their own province first and foremost and only when injury hit them so hard they'll be looking over the wire and get help from the small brother.

If this small provinces go to the first division of the CC because of S15, they'll simply end up dead and will have no funds and their players will have a daytime job like you and me and the young players will have to find them another place to play their rugby.

 

[Spook]

See, you cant even get your own provincial competition going but you want the 15th team. :nta:

That's not relevant to getting a 5th team.

Thats exactly where the Kings started their champagn. The Argies is on their way to do the same, playing in SA provincial Vodacom competition.

I don't think it's relevant PB because the biggest thing stopping an Aussie domestic comp is money. This won't be an issue for Melbourne. They have quite a few sponsors knocking down their doors by all accounts and they get decent crowds for their matches IMO.

So why did the sponsor then withdraw their money from their bid?

What are you talking about? There were 2 bigs for Super rugby in Melbourne that have now formed a joint bid. Current Victorian rugby sponsors include (but are not limited to) - A see a massive casino, a bank and a large insurance company all in there:

 

[PaarlBok]

Well take your pick on your fancy logos Spokie, here is the Rugby365 article about the sponsor withdrawal

Southern Kings close in on S15 spot
Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:11

Southern Kings' came closer to becoming the 15th team in the expanded Super competition in 2011 received a huge boost after the Australian Rugby Union (ARU) lost one of the key financial backers for the proposed Melbourne Super 15 team.

This follows the VicSuper15 group's decision to withdraw its interest because of dissatisfaction with the bid process on the eve of the bid deadline on Friday.

SA Rugby and the Southern Kings are confident they have done all that is possible to have the Kings included in the competition.

It is known that the Southern Kings' submission to Sanzar predicts an average crowd of 24 000 per match, that the budget for player recruitment is in the middle of the range of SA teams, and that the advantages of the new stadium in Port Elizabeth are being highlighted.

Meanwhile the ARU is now managing Melbourne's bid itself. It is understood the VicSuper15 group was unhappy with the way the ARU handled the bid process, which also included the Melbourne Rebels (in conjunction with the Victorian Rugby Union) and the Belgravia Group.

ARU management had earlier agreed to award the Melbourne licence to VicSuper15, but the ARU board did not ratify the decision.

 

[Spook]

You need to keep up with the times PB :

September 30, 2009

THE newly merged Victorian Rugby Union and VicSuper15 consortiums yesterday called on the Australian Rugby Union to finally put an end to the angst surrounding Melbourne's Super rugby campaign by endorsing their joint bid.
..
.
VicSuper15 spokesman Ray Evans told The Australian the ARU should take careful note of the unity of purpose that now existed in the Melbourne rugby community.

"We've now swallowed the pill," Evans said. "We're now together. We've still got the same investors; we've still got the same management; we've still got the same rugby knowledge. And as has been demonstrated by this lunch today, the rugby community are totally behind us. And if the ARU don't take note of that, it's detrimental to them."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26143746-16957,00.html

 

[chief]

PB- article is from a month ago. Times change. I just cannot see the logic in handing the side to South Africa. The costs would be far too significant compared to giving it to the Melbourne franchise. It is probably beneficial to SA rugby then AUS rugby, because of the player base. But SA rugby has its own competition where they can be given their time to shine. Doing this will put Australian Rugby further more down the drain if they do not award it to Australia.

 

[Pfitzy]

If they put a 5th team in Western Sydney for S14 I'll be at every home game. Travelling to Tahs' games is shit, and then you have to watch your team play like a bunch of fucktards just to sour the deal further. One of the domestic comp teams becomes their primary feeder, in addition to the Emus, Two Blues, and Eastwood in a holy diocese of rugby the way its meant to be played. Hell, get the local Subbies clubs (*ahem* Renegades) involved and you're on a winner.

Make the West of Sydney strong and you'll stop the hegemony of the navel-gazers in the Axis of Evil. Australian Rugby would be the ultimate beneficiary.

 

[Lindommer]

Top idea, Nick. I'd like to suggest an improvement: site the 15th Super team at Lapstone Oval so I can walk to games. And after matches you can roll down the hill to get home. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 

[Spook]

Top idea, Nick. I'd like to suggest an improvement: site the 15th Super team at Lapstone Oval so I can walk to games. And after matches you can roll down the hill to get home. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Isn't it dangerous to walk around in that part of Sydney :fishing

 

[Spook]

PB, you talk about how strong the Kings team will be but when they played the Lions, they loaded the side with European-based mercenaries. :nta: