Deans contract extended

[waratahjesus]

do people actually see the current wallaby squad having the 5-10% improvement to be world beaters?
i dont know where its actually going to come from. we have so many cracks just covered over. we hide our 10 cos he cant defend, and we have so many players that have had terrible win/loss records throughout there rofessional rugby careers that we expect to close out games at the death. i dont see a golden era until the team half turns over again.

 

[Scotty]

No I am saying the current coach benefits from the experimentation of the previous coach. For example Noddy retires after 1995 RWC and Greg Smith is left with the task of finding a new playmaker and dicks around with Horan at 10. Macqueen replaces Smith with the benefit of hindsight knowing that he has to look elsewhere and experiments with Larkham and finds a winner. The Wallabies click under Macqueen and he enjoys a good win loss record but he benefited from the experimentation of Smith who is remembered for a shit win loss record. Smith had a greenhorn Wallaby captain but Macqueen inherited the much more refined and experienced version.

I see this era of Australian Rugby as the most like the current one. Should somebody take over from Deans, they will enjoy the good win loss record on the basis of the work of Deans.

I don't see win loss records a true reflection of the work of the coach that holds that record. It does not take into account all the variables that need to be looked at to achieve a more holistic assessment.

I would think that is more the roles of the Super sides to develop talent. The national coach has to develop a game plan around that talent, and be able to make them play to it, and make them play well together.

 

[daz]

I don't see win loss records a true reflection of the work of the coach that holds that record. It does not take into account all the variables that need to be looked at to achieve a more holistic assessment.

I somewhat agree with you Ruggo. A 2-3 year coach with a 45-55% record may be understandable in the circumstances of having to re-invent the wheel and the playing group. If the coach has been at the helm for 5 years with that same group and the w/l ratio is still 45-55%, you would have to say that the coach may not be fit for the job. Just so I am clear, I don't put Deans into that category just yet...

There have also been plenty of instances where the same playing group, under different coaches, had dramatically different results. IMHO, this clearly not the case with the Wallaby team of today, which has really only become somewhat settled over the course of the last 12 months or so.

 

[spectator]

Haven't read all the post so excuse any repetition. I like the way Deans has not bowed to reputation, made some big calls, and unearthed some talent along the way. It's arguable that guys like Slipper and O'Connor might not be in the position they currently enjoy without Deans making the calls. He's also been willing to have a look at a very wide range of players and I don't think we've seen as many 'bolters' as under previous coaches. Some have taken their chances better than others, but the point is that they have been given opportunity in the first place.

I give him a big tick and reckon when he leaves he will do so with things in good shape, so no problems with the extension. The only issue I may have is what next for Link?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I think on balance I'm happy with a potential call to extend his contract. Deans has taken a team that was at the end of its cycle and reinvented it. The experienced blokes who were in the squad at the beginning of 2008 weren't and aren't going to get any better, as good as they were in the past (guys like Morts and Smith I am thinking of mainly here). In that situation, it's better to punt on youth and take a few hard losses while the rebuilding happens. There are no shortcuts to this and does anyone genuinely believe that any other coach would have done a better job? Simply trudging on with an ageing group would not get us within a bulls roar of regaining Bill this year.

The time for excuses was over in the middle of 2010, however. Better results were required, given that the team was more settled, and they materialised in part in the back half of the year. Finally beating the All Blacks again, beating France away and South Africa away gives me some level of optimism about where the team is headed. We still need a better scrum and our inside channel defence could be better, but I think we are playing better footy than when Deans took over. Those things are fixable. I think we now have a team that other coaches will worry about trying to stop.

 

[Bullrush]

I think on balance I'm happy with a potential call to extend his contract. Deans has taken a team that was at the end of its cycle and reinvented it. The experienced blokes who were in the squad at the beginning of 2008 weren't and aren't going to get any better, as good as they were in the past (guys like Morts and Smith I am thinking of mainly here). In that situation, it's better to punt on youth and take a few hard losses while the rebuilding happens. There are no shortcuts to this and does anyone genuinely believe that any other coach would have done a better job? Simply trudging on with an ageing group would not get us within a bulls roar of regaining Bill this year.

The time for excuses was over in the middle of 2010, however. Better results were required, given that the team was more settled, and they materialised in part in the back half of the year. Finally beating the All Blacks again, beating France away and South Africa away gives me some level of optimism about where the team is headed. We still need a better scrum and our inside channel defence could be better, but I think we are playing better footy than when Deans took over. Those things are fixable. I think we now have a team that other coaches will worry about trying to stop.

OK....I'm gonna take this on carefully because my Wallaby knoweldge isn't as extensive as probably most of you guys BUT....

How many of the young guys that Deans has brought thru have been forced on him eg. retirements, injuries etc? How many were brought thru becaus of his coaching and/or talent recognition.

Giteau is resembling the Caleb Ralph of Aussie rugby at the moment and Rocky Elsom the Reuben Thorne...

 

[cyclopath]

OK....I'm gonna take this on carefully because my Wallaby knoweldge isn't as extensive as probably most of you guys BUT....

How many of the young guys that Deans has brought thru have been forced on him eg. retirements, injuries etc? How many were brought thru becaus of his coaching and/or talent recognition.

Giteau is resembling the Caleb Ralph of Aussie rugby at the moment and Rocky Elsom the Reuben Thorne...

I won't touch the final analogies, Bullrush!
As far as new players I think it's a bit of both.
The scrum was a problem - whether it was really as crap as some thought, or whether it was a bit crap but perceived to be the culprit on reputation by refs, it had to change. And so some different players have been tried. Some have been pretty poor, some are quite promising - Slipper, Palmer, Fitzpatrick and so on. Of course Robinson, Alexander, Moore and TPN are all quite capable, when in position and in form.
Others? Well, JO'C has probably been a real find, but anyone could have found him. Beale at 15 has been a good call, but Hickey did that as much as anyone. A backline shift away from Giteau at 10 was, for me, necessary, so I would credit him with that.
Personally, I think whoever had coached the Wallabies over the past 3 years would have struggled somewhat, and I doubt anyone would have been dramtically better. I know others will vehemently disagree though.

 

[Scotty]

My question is this:

Is there any player, apart from the architect, who has actually been dropped by Deans that was a long standing encumbent. I can't think of any?

I agree with cyclo, that it is unlikely any other coach would have done much better, but it goes both ways, I'm not sure many other coaches would have done much worse. In addition his 'finding' of new players has to a large extent been forced on him. And one of his largest failings (continued selection of Giteau at 10), could have been picked by any of us 4 years ago (and in fact Connolly is the one that picked Barnes out of nowhere to play there when Larkham was injured, instead of moving Giteau out).

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

In terms of new players who have gone well, by my count under Deans we have had: Genia, Cooper, O'Connor, Slipper, Horne (as yet unproven, but the signs are there), Horwill, Alexander, Simmons, Beale and Pocock. That's not too bad. Now it didn't take a genius to pick some of those guys, but some of them have been fairly left field, like Pocock over Smith, O'Connor, Slipper and Beale.

 

[DPK]

In terms of new players who have gone well, by my count under Deans we have had: Genia, Cooper, O'Connor, Slipper, Horne (as yet unproven, but the signs are there), Horwill, Alexander, Simmons, Beale and Pocock. That's not too bad. Now it didn't take a genius to pick some of those guys, but some of them have been fairly left field, like Pocock over Smith, O'Connor, Slipper and Beale.

I think Beale and O'Connor are opposing examples. Deans (not solely) has certainly found a way to bring the best out of Beale, but we're still waiting on O'Connor's big year. So far I don't think we've seen the best of O'Connor.

 

[Scotty]

In terms of new players who have gone well, by my count under Deans we have had: Genia, Cooper, O'Connor, Slipper, Horne (as yet unproven, but the signs are there), Horwill, Alexander, Simmons, Beale and Pocock. That's not too bad. Now it didn't take a genius to pick some of those guys, but some of them have been fairly left field, like Pocock over Smith, O'Connor, Slipper and Beale.

Out of those I would only really credit Slipper as being left field.

Pocock was already being talked about in the same breath as McCaw, O'Connor probably hasn't really been a 'find' yet, and Beale was first played at 15 for the Tahs (if my memory serves me correctly).

 

[Brumbies Guy]

Out of those I would only really credit Slipper as being left field.

Pocock was already being talked about in the same breath as McCaw, O'Connor probably hasn't really been a 'find' yet, and Beale was first played at 15 for the Tahs (if my memory serves me correctly).

Played there with Aus Schoolboys and U20's didn't he?

 

[RugbyReg]

yep.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I think Beale and O'Connor are opposing examples. Deans (not solely) has certainly found a way to bring the best out of Beale, but we're still waiting on O'Connor's big year. So far I don't think we've seen the best of O'Connor.

I partially agree on O'Connor, but I would argue that we saw some stellar moments from him last year. I think he's playing in the wrong position at present, but Deans (rightly IMHO) sees his value in attack so much that he is just getting him out on the paddock. I can only imagine how much damage he's going to do at 12 when he eventually plays there regularly.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Out of those I would only really credit Slipper as being left field.

Pocock was already being talked about in the same breath as McCaw, O'Connor probably hasn't really been a 'find' yet, and Beale was first played at 15 for the Tahs (if my memory serves me correctly).

I guess my point about Pocock is that we already had a world class openside in the team and it was a reasonably big call on Deans part to hand the starting position to Bam. He could quite reasonably have kept George in that position for a good while longer.

 

[ChargerWA]

Aussie Bob was copping a hiding on here for persisting with JOC (James O'Connor) on the wing, espescially after his defensive mis read when McCaw prematurely unbound from the ruck and scored that try (at Sydney?). Alot of people were saying that JOC (James O'Connor) is class player but we need a proper wing in his place.

I doubt many would say it now after his EOYT form, the kid just knows how to find space and finish a try and has been recognised as someone you need to make space for in the 15. Deans deserves credit for the shape of team at present, and a bit of an arse kicking for how badly he has continued let our scrum deteriorate. All in all, im happy he is staying.

 

[Richo]

JOC (James O'Connor) definitely improved on the wing, but I'd still rather he ended up playing closer and that we did find ourselves a specialist winger.

 

[daz]

we're still waiting on O'Connor's big year. So far I don't think we've seen the best of O'Connor.

Hells donkey's, Konze. I tell you what, if we haven't seen the best of JOC (James O'Connor) yet (and I agree that at 20 or whatever this is more than likely), then this kid is going to become a Wallaby legend.

 

[Scarfman]

I've had another think about this. (And I'm sure you're relieved to know that I'm still working on the problem).

I reckon this appointment is about JON re-signing stars post RWC11. They like Deans, they don't want a new coach who might give them all the sack.

However, if we do BADLY in the RWC, JON will see to it that Deans will GO - one way or the other, and depending on how badly.

 

[Scotty]

Played there with Aus Schoolboys and U20's didn't he?

And I'm sure plenty times before that, but I meant that he was playing 15 for the Tahs before the Wallabies. It isn't like Deans 'discovered' his fullback talent.