Cooper - Good or Great rugby player - discuss.

[I like to watch]

Could have been, given a chance earlier.
too late now IMO

 

[Braveheart81]

Australia scored the only try in the 1999 final.

Umm... there were two tries in the 1999 RWC final and Australia scored both of them - Ben Tune and Owen Finegan. Quite clearly from the infamous duck a l'orange ad, Owen wasn't French.

 

[jay-c]

i think hes the best attacking 5/8 in the world
if we are to dominate it has t be by his hand> as others have suggested we dont have the forward to grid our games> or the backs for that matter
we must impose our way of playing on teams and we have to be good enough to do this>
we have to hit the games 100% all attack> its a system that can be successful while our players are young and quick on their feet>
when other teams dictate the play we see games like ireland, samoa, scotland england etc

 

[JKB]

Cooper is the most gifted attacking rugby player in the world. He threatens the defense in more ways than any other player. He has ability to beat a man one on one with either footwork, speed or strength. His passing is the most deceptive and accurate and his kicking is precise(esp when kicking to his own player). It can't be denied that he can do things that no other player can do.

He just needs to learn when to use his superior skills and when to play it tight and punch the corners. He needs to realise that sometimes less is more. He also needs to learn what to do when his forwards are not dominating,ie, Reds v Crusaders and Blues and Waratahs this year.

Those of you who think someone else should be 5/8, have a look at trinations 2010 games v the Blacks. Our attack was rubbish when he wasn't there. When he was there the Wallabies should have beaten the Blacks in Sydney and did beat them in HK with Cooper having a hand in all the tries, just as he set up every try vs Italy 2 weeks ago.

Give him and this Wallaby back line front foot ball and they WILL win the game.

It's when they don't have the front foot ball that he needs to work out how to stay in the contest until dominance can be gained.

 

[JKB]

i think hes the best attacking 5/8 in the world
if we are to dominate it has t be by his hand> as others have suggested we dont have the forward to grid our games> or the backs for that matter
we must impose our way of playing on teams and we have to be good enough to do this>
we have to hit the games 100% all attack> its a system that can be successful while our players are young and quick on their feet>
when other teams dictate the play we see games like ireland, samoa, scotland england etc

we DO have the forwards. Grind out a win against a top class rugby team away from home is exactly what the Wallabies did to the Boks in SA about 5 weeks ago. Our forwards also dominated that AB's in Brisbane for most of the game, enough of it to win at least. As one of the AB's assistant coaches said after losing the Wallabies, "it's all about edge and attitude". Hopefully this loss will reignite these qualities in our pack.

 

[Bowside]

Am I the only person who thinks JO'C should be 10?

I think the way the backline is now, O'Connor could be used at 12 but acting as the '10' of the second wave of attack. By that I mean forwards get some quickball, quade sweeps round the ruck launches the attack on one side, then next phase quade sets up like hes going to do it again but just distributes to a sweeping o'connor who links up with the winger/centre/fullback/higgers.

On the topic of cooper, I think he's a player that is young and still not at the top of his game. When you look at where he was a couple of seasons ago, and compare with how he played this year, vastly improved. I think being at reds he is in the perfect environment, especially as link makes him play different role depending on the opposition i.e. stormers game, which is what he should have been doing on the weekend.

I'd like to see him master the torpedo kick, which he tried to do for a couple of games this year before reverting back to the punt. Its a risky play but if he masters it his tactical kicking game will become a lot more dangerous.

 

[Oldpig]

Cooper is the most gifted attacking rugby player in the world. He threatens the defense in more ways than any other player. He has ability to beat a man one on one with either footwork, speed or strength. His passing is the most deceptive and accurate and his kicking is precise(esp when kicking to his own player). It can't be denied that he can do things that no other player can do.

LKB, applaud your passion and obvious respect for Cooper however I can't agree. His foot work is too predictable, speed is OK but he's not the fastest on the paddock. While he can pass I would question the accuracy of it and the quality, only have to look at last weeks game. Seems to me he is trying to copy his mate SBW, in trying to off load after the contact without much success. Kicking + precise = Cooper ???????? As i have stated and others before me he is skilled and talented, but does he have what it takes to play an intelligent & adaptive game at World Cup level?

 

[RedsHappy]

I think the way the backline is now, O'Connor could be used at 12 but acting as the '10' of the second wave of attack. By that I mean forwards get some quickball, quade sweeps round the ruck launches the attack on one side, then next phase quade sets up like hes going to do it again but just distributes to a sweeping o'connor who links up with the winger/centre/fullback/higgers. On the topic of cooper, I think he's a player that is young and still not at the top of his game. When you look at where he was a couple of seasons ago, and compare with how he played this year, vastly improved. I think being at reds he is in the perfect environment, especially as link makes him play different role depending on the opposition i.e. stormers game, which is what he should have been doing on the weekend. I'd like to see him master the torpedo kick, which he tried to do for a couple of games this year before reverting back to the punt. Its a risky play but if he masters it his tactical kicking game will become a lot more dangerous.

A crucial point in there Bowside, thanks. Just on the highlighted matter above...if you read Link's latest SMH piece out today:

(http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...sets-and-controlled-chaos-20110921-1klb4.html)

....not only is it an intriguing insight into Link's depth of coaching capability and thinking, but it importantly implies how Link conditions (in a playing sense) his key players to deal with stress, the creating and use of team structure and precision game plans, and the creating of stress for the opposition (incl the use of the Reds' sports psychologist!). This all goes to my opinion that Link manages, supports and directs Cooper very well, and this same quality of guidance (or supervision) is not as evident in Deans' oversight of Cooper. I know I am a card-carrying Deans sceptic and ditto major fan of Link's, but I think there is now good data to support this argument from this year's Tests that closely abutted QC (Quade Cooper)'s big S15 games, and I don't think the old 'super rugby is a world apart from Test rugby' theory invalidates it.

 

[Ash]

Regarding J'OC, I thought he was a little too individual at 10 for the Force. He was individually brilliant, but could not run the backline.

 

[yourmatesam]

Quade is our best option at 10 at the moment. He will improve in time. If Berrick could keep his scone right, he would be there.

 

[Bowside]

A crucial point in there Bowside, thanks. Just on the highlighted matter above...if you read Link's latest SMH piece out today:

(http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...sets-and-controlled-chaos-20110921-1klb4.html)

....not only is it an intriguing insight into Link's depth of coaching capability and thinking, but it importantly implies how Link conditions (in a playing sense) his key players to deal with stress, the creating and use of team structure and precision game plans, and the creating of stress for the opposition (incl the use of the Reds' sports psychologist!). This all goes to my opinion that Link manages, supports and directs Cooper very well, and this same quality of guidance (or supervision) is not as evident in Deans' oversight of Cooper. I know I am a card-carrying Deans sceptic and ditto major fan of Link's, but I think there is now good data to support this argument from this year's Tests that closely abutted QC (Quade Cooper)'s big S15 games, and I don't think the old 'super rugby is a world apart from Test rugby' theory invalidates it.

Thanks for the article it was a good read. Link really is always one step ahead when it comes to game plan. I admire the way he tailors his game-plan to the players he has the their capabilities, but he does it in a way that doesn't restrict the team to a certain style of play week-in week-out. The important thing in the context of this discussion is that cooper is capable of playing the style of game the was warranted against Ireland, and by extension I would say the style of game that wins you world cups.

I think the thing that lost it for the wallabies on the weekend was they they didn't capitalise on their momentum, which was something the reds did very well this year. Examples would be Horwill opting to take the points early in the first half when the irish were repeatedly pinged for slowing down the ruck ball. At that point in the game the wallabies had gone multiple phases making ground and putting the irish on the back-foot with nearly every carry. Why not take the tap or line out and give the irish another chance to infringe, giving byrce lawrence no option but to award a yellow card, since the infringements were in such short succession. Likewise quade needed to kick to the corners more and keep turning the irish around, because when the pack is tiring the momentum a successful backline play brings acts almost like an energy boost, however an unsuccessful play has the opposite effect. I think genia needed to take some of the pressure off himself by letting Cooper take on more of the kicking duties, which also would have rendered the irish plan of pressuring genia less effective.

There was defiantly a failure by the wallabies to read the momentum of the game and adjust accordingly, and that is what I think is the difference between a team that wins when they are playing good rugby (Wallabies) and a team that wins even when they are being beaten in some areas of the game (All Blacks, Reds). As many have said, the wallabies problems are more mental than physical.

 

[I like to watch]

LKB, applaud your passion and obvious respect for Cooper however I can't agree. His foot work is too predictable, speed is OK but he's not the fastest on the paddock. While he can pass I would question the accuracy of it and the quality, only have to look at last weeks game. Seems to me he is trying to copy his mate SBW, in trying to off load after the contact without much success. Kicking + precise = Cooper ???????? As i have stated and others before me he is skilled and talented, but does he have what it takes to play an intelligent & adaptive game at World Cup level?

I am a critic of QC (Quade Cooper) but think you are being too harsh. He has got good footwork and has the speed to go through holes, some of the balls he gives are sublime. He can compete and on occasion excel at test level.
The big issue for me is the format of RWC, he needs for most of his low percentage plays to come off 3 games in a row, against increasingly tougher opponents or we are sunk. I am a punter and don't believe in going "all in" 3 times in a row.
The way the season has panned out, there is no real option B, so we will see how things pan out. If/when we lose the Quade critics will blame him, and his supporters will blame RD.

RH you must understand that Test Football is a higher level than Super 15, with more pressure and less time for play makers,surely?

 

[Dan54]

I think it a stretch to say he the best attacking back in the world, in fact I rate Carter a better attacking 10, he uses more guile I think in taking ball to line. BUT I will say he a bloody good 10, I would pick him, and as someone said earlier provided he surrounds himself with right people he could be could be great. I reserve judgement until he gets rid of brain farts, which I think he will given time. I also a bit of an old fart, so maybe I take a bit of convincing too.

 

[cyclopath]

Good but flawed for me. When he learns to defend solidly (doesn't need to be spectacular) and modulates his game when the situation dictates some conservatism, he could be anything. Even great. But not yet.

 

[Victorian Reds Fan]

Good but flawed for me. When he learns to defend solidly (doesn't need to be spectacular) and modulates his game when the situation dictates some conservatism, he could be anything. Even great. But not yet.

You mean at test level because he modulated his game superbly against the Stormers this year.

 

[cyclopath]

You mean at test level because he modulated his game superbly against the Stormers this year.

Great players are seldom defined by provincial rugby, so yes, I assumed we were all talking about Tests.

 

[Victorian Reds Fan]

Yep, fair enough.

 

[grievous]

Yep, fair enough.

Hasnt really done much this international season, goalkicking poor but then we dont produce them anymore and dont rely on winning games with kicks. The fact that Deans swaps the team round defensivley due to his percievced weakness in defense is down right disgraceful. Get a tackle bag, take him out and make him hit it for hours and hours, its no Gridiron for offense and deeeefense, no more passengers thanks, the Wallabies has plenty

 

[da_grubster]

great at super level. not proven or done much at test level and far too inconsistent. defence is extremely poor as we all know.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

He is the best 10 we have, we have to work around his weaknesses

He is the most talented footballer we have. Contrary to popular opinion that does not make him the best 5/8.
Unfortunately there are plenty of talented footballers who dont do the work necessary to be even good let alone great. To be good at test level he has to be able to play in the line: he has shown that he cannot/will not handle the high ball.
Disrupting the structure of the backline is a perilous pastime. One of the reasons these things are called tests is that they are intended to ask questions of each country in all departments, as Mark Loane said in The rise and rise of Australian rugby about playing the ABs "It is the most complete examination in rugby".
Defence is an attitudinal thing and he is sufficiently co-ordinated that the mechanics of defending will never be difficult for him - so it all comes down to his mental approach. He appears unwilling to address it. he will not be good until he does.