Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Shane Smeltz]

Augustines are the only peninsula school who play in an organised Saturday competition, although there are a significant number of boys who go from the peninsula to GPS/CAS schools as well.

I'm reminded that Augustines face the same issues - they have a lot of teams in 13s and 14s but drop away sharply after that. In the older ages they have less teams than just about any other ISA Div 1 school - Shane Smeltz could maybe confirm this?

Don't underestimate the role of travel for northern beaches people, throw in teams being incorrectly graded and affected teams could lose 6-10 kids and while that doesn't seem many, it's enough to make a team unviable. I know/know of quite a few boys who play junior league ahead of rugby because the league comp is local - some of these kids play rugby for their school as well, but not for a club.

Yes QH, from U15s the numbers do drop away. It is kind of a catch-22 situation - because the school is (deservedly) in Div 1 the level of competition is high and the boys and parents start to baulk. A lot.

The participation of football/soccer increases from U15s onwards and the school has many, many soccer teams.
Also the school offers boxing (no, not competitive boxing but boxing fitness) and this is extremely popular I am told.

However this rugby drop-off is not unique - I have friends whose sons go to Joeys and Scots and both school now have more soccer teams that rugby teams. BUT overall they (GPS) do have more rugby teams that ISA schools because Saturday sport is compulsory whereas with ISA schools it is optional.
But I am hearing that soccer is more popular than rugby overall at GPS schools these days - because of the obvious.

Lastly, yes, lots of Saints boys play league because it is local, on the Peninsula. Less play club union once they get to 15s and over as previously stated - which is the topic of this thread - but they do play for school.

 

[Thomo77]

That's a stupid ill informed statement. How about the fact club rugby falls away dramatically after the 13s with numbers and skill. Look at the 15 a's this year with only 4 teams. What are you going to learn. Nothing. Epically with the same parents running club and rep. Hardly impartial or beneficial for a players development.

As one of those terrible parents who gives up between 10 and 15 hours of his week to coach one of those 4 15as sides and help out with one of 'those' rep teams, along with acting as a taxi service for a bunch of the boys so they can actually train or play, I'd welcome you to come and share your coaching prowess with us to ensure the boys learn something new.... or perhaps come and help out as a selector. We'd love your input. We'd probably just prefer it if you avoided calling us stupid or ill informed if you disagree with us and offer up a balanced point of view.

My young bloke has missed out on as many teams as he's made. I've tried to encourage him to work harder than anyone else if he wants to make it - in all aspects of his life. This endemic need to blame someone else in the world for failure is why our society is going backwards. Pull your head in - or participate to make it better rather than insulting people from the side lines.

 

[Quick Hands]

As one of those terrible parents who gives up between 10 and 15 hours of his week to coach one of those 4 15as sides and help out with one of 'those' rep teams, along with acting as a taxi service for a bunch of the boys so they can actually train or play, I'd welcome you to come and share your coaching prowess with us to ensure the boys learn something new.. or perhaps come and help out as a selector. We'd love your input. We'd probably just prefer it if you avoided calling us stupid or ill informed if you disagree with us and offer up a balanced point of view.

My young bloke has missed out on as many teams as he's made. I've tried to encourage him to work harder than anyone else if he wants to make it - in all aspects of his life. This endemic need to blame someone else in the world for failure is why our society is going backwards. Pull your head in - or participate to make it better rather than insulting people from the side lines.

Without going into any specific situation, I can offer the following broad statement.

No matter what team you select, there will always be disatisfied people. You'll never eliminate it, but in my experience you'll reduce it if people can see a fair and transparent process.

I have no idea what teams you and CNorth are involved with or whether any complaints are justified or not. Just making a general comment.

 

[Thomo77]

Without going into any specific situation, I can offer the following broad statement.

No matter what team you select, there will always be disatisfied people. You'll never eliminate it, but in my experience you'll reduce it if people can see a fair and transparent process.

I have no idea what teams you and CNorth are involved with or whether any complaints are justified or not. Just making a general comment.

Totally agree QH.. I certainly didn't feel like we were the target.. but the sentiment offends.

 

[BeastieBoy]

In all codes if a dad is the coach you expect their son to be in the team. Otherwise why are they the coach. You also expect that their boy will get the position the coach wants him to have. It always is and always will be. Its the same in ALL the codes. That is my experience and I have nothing against it. If you have a problem - coach or arrange for one. However it can manifest itself further in a boy being excluded from a club because he is competition or being rotated out of games on a frequent basis as they are leading the best and fairest. I have experienced that. But again it happens in all codes. If your boy likes the game and is good you just have to find a way around it. Change clubs etc

 

[Shane Smeltz]

Heard tonight that Hunters Hill (Norths) will not be fielding a team in 16As. This is what I predicted.
The particularly talented boys in the team, that don't live anywhere near Hunters Hill, are now focusing on league.
Parramatta Eels have a large purse for their youth - a much larger purse than other Sydney RL teams, and there is a real pathway for these boys.
A pity as the boys are genuine talents and nice, humble (most of them) boys to boot.

Based on last year's 15As there is now hardly any teams left to run in the 16As - Hunters Hill gone, Manly Harlequins gone, Clovelly and Coogee possible having a team if they merge.
A sad state of affairs.

 

[Gary Owen III]

Heard tonight that Hunters Hill (Norths) will not be fielding a team in 16As. This is what I predicted.
The particularly talented boys in the team, that don't live anywhere near Hunters Hill, are now focusing on league.
Parramatta Eels have a large purse for their youth - a much larger purse than other Sydney RL teams, and there is a real pathway for these boys.
A pity as the boys are genuine talents and nice, humble (most of them) boys to boot.

Based on last year's 15As there is now hardly any teams left to run in the 16As - Hunters Hill gone, Manly Harlequins gone, Clovelly and Coogee possible having a team if they merge.
A sad state of affairs.

I think you will find Hunters Hill and Mosman are running a JV team in the 16A comp. Same as they did last year in that age group.

 

[LucyPomPom]

Does anyone know what's happening with the under 17's comp? I heard it had been canned with the A grade under 17's becoming an Opens comp and the lower grade under 17's combining with their own club's 16B players to play in a 16 A/B comp?? Would love some clarity if anyone knows

 

[loiterer]

People self-nominate and then SJRU decide whether or not to accept. It's more s system failure than anyone particularly doing the wrong thing.

In the 10s last year there were 89 teams and I'd suggest that it's not possible to properly grade that many. In 10s to 12s it would be possible to have competitions run more locally - the current situation does not eliminate the mismatches, all it does is send kids and parents from one end of Sydney to the other for the same result.

I'll give you a little example. In an age group this year two clubs nominated to move from A grade to B grade. When they played each other last year Team A won 2 matches and Team B won the third. You'd think on that basis, they'd either both go down or Team B would go down. The SJRU decide that Team A goes down to B grade and Team B stays in A grade.

Or another example where a team played in D grade last year and didn't get within 50 points of anyone. They asked to go down to F grade this year, but were put in E grade. They've played two trials this year and lost them both - one of the teams they lost to is in F grade, the other is in G grade.

The current system to me seems to reduce the mismatches but certainly doesn't eliminate them. Grading is a highly imperfect process, at the start of the year coaches have fairly limited information on which to judge their own team let alone the potential competitors. It is certainly tough on teams that get placed in too high a grade, but it is pretty disheartening playing in too low a grade as well. I have seen teams that deserved a low grading but contained 1 or 2 stars who should have been in a much higher grade. I don't know what you do about those types of teams.

 

[Quick Hands]

Does anyone know what's happening with the under 17's comp? I heard it had been canned with the A grade under 17's becoming an Opens comp and the lower grade under 17's combining with their own club's 16B players to play in a 16 A/B comp?? Would love some clarity if anyone knows

Hot off the SJRU press:

Opens 7 teams
16A/17A 7 teams (teams from both ages incl 2 x HH/Mos)
16B & 16C 6 teams in each
15 A/B 10 teams (one competition)
15C & 15D 8 teams in each
15E 6 teams
14A & 14B 8 teams in each
14C 10 teams
14D 8 teams
14E 6 teams
13A 13B & 13C 8 teams in each
13D 12 teams
13E 10 teams
12A & 12B 8 teams in each
12C & 12D 10 teams in each
12E 9 teams
12F & 12G 6 teams in each
11A 11C & 11G 8 teams in each
11B 11D & 11E 10 teams in each
11F 11 teams
10A 10B 10D 10F & 10G 8 teams in each
10C & 10E 10 teams in each
10H 6 teams

Subject to regrading after 3 rounds

 

[Quick Hands]

Heard tonight that Hunters Hill (Norths) will not be fielding a team in 16As. This is what I predicted.
The particularly talented boys in the team, that don't live anywhere near Hunters Hill, are now focusing on league.
Parramatta Eels have a large purse for their youth - a much larger purse than other Sydney RL teams, and there is a real pathway for these boys.
A pity as the boys are genuine talents and nice, humble (most of them) boys to boot.

Based on last year's 15As there is now hardly any teams left to run in the 16As - Hunters Hill gone, Manly Harlequins gone, Clovelly and Coogee possible having a team if they merge.
A sad state of affairs.

The teams below are listed as playing the a combined 16A/17A competition in 2015 - no team from the peninsula

U16/U17A
Clovelly
H Hill/Mosman U17
Hills
KWP/Lindfield
Lane Cove/Drummoyne
Wests
H Hill/Mosman U16

 

[Shane Smeltz]

The teams below are listed as playing the a combined 16A/17A competition in 2015 - no team from the peninsula

U16/U17A
Clovelly
H Hill/Mosman U17
Hills
KWP/Lindfield
Lane Cove/Drummoyne
Wests
H Hill/Mosman U16

I think that is a great solution. Lindfield and Clovelly always had competitive teams in the 15As (IIRC Clovelly came 2nd in the GF to HH) but struggled for numbers at times.
Combining 16s & 17s into one team, in these age groups in these clubs, that is hopefully an A-grade team could work. Time will tell.

A pity there is no team from the Peninsula though.

Yesterday however, there was a U16/17 game played at Seaforth. It was a friendly between Forest/Manly Harlequins and Waitake Boys High from Otago. That amazing storm broke just as the game started and the rain was incredible but they played on, the Otago boys not being fazed by bad weather.
The game was pretty much one way - the Kiwis way - but in Forest's defence they are a B or C grade team and didn't have any backs. Just forwards, the backs being on holidays.
A team of forwards will never beat a good Kiwi team gotta say.

But it was good natured game and I was impressed with how professionally the Kiwis took it, they were miked up and extremely well organised with a large coaching and crew contingent.
Perhaps we could learn something from that.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The SJRU team registrations seem to suggest that this years NSW JRU State champs might be a little skinny for District Teams in the upper age groups.

 

[Quick Hands]

I think that is a great solution. Lindfield and Clovelly always had competitive teams in the 15As (IIRC Clovelly came 2nd in the GF to HH) but struggled for numbers at times.
Combining 16s & 17s into one team, in these age groups in these clubs, that is hopefully an A-grade team could work. Time will tell.

A pity there is no team from the Peninsula though.

Yesterday however, there was a U16/17 game played at Seaforth. It was a friendly between Forest/Manly Harlequins and Waitake Boys High from Otago. That amazing storm broke just as the game started and the rain was incredible but they played on, the Otago boys not being fazed by bad weather.
The game was pretty much one way - the Kiwis way - but in Forest's defence they are a B or C grade team and didn't have any backs. Just forwards, the backs being on holidays.
A team of forwards will never beat a good Kiwi team gotta say.

But it was good natured game and I was impressed with how professionally the Kiwis took it, they were miked up and extremely well organised with a large coaching and crew contingent.
Perhaps we could learn something from that.

Newport have a 16Bs, Forest 16Cs and Manly Vikings 16Cs.

 

[Quick Hands]

The SJRU team registrations seem to suggest that this years NSW JRU State champs might be a little skinny for District Teams in the upper age groups.

Warringah have 2 clubs in 15As, Manly clubs in that age group are in Cs or lower. 16s see post 1254.

 

[Quick Hands]

The current system to me seems to reduce the mismatches but certainly doesn't eliminate them. Grading is a highly imperfect process, at the start of the year coaches have fairly limited information on which to judge their own team let alone the potential competitors. It is certainly tough on teams that get placed in too high a grade, but it is pretty disheartening playing in too low a grade as well. I have seen teams that deserved a low grading but contained 1 or 2 stars who should have been in a much higher grade. I don't know what you do about those types of teams.

Although when the club provides information about the loss of players and provides evidence of results from the season before and still SJRU refuse to budge it's very frustrating.

In the scenario I mentioned a couple of pages back a team which won 3 matches and had a draw in 2014 has been kept in A grade in 2015. One of the two other teams which were put down into B grade, beat the team that stayed in A grade twice in 2014. In all honesty all 3 teams should have gone down, I'm certainly not saying that either of the other two teams are A teams. Keeping one of the 3 teams up maintains an 8 team A grade though.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Using @Quick Hands figures from post #1250 above, added in to previous years team numbers

(When they are known, the Saturday Comp Team numbers to be added to this post by an edit)


Under 10
Not Sunday - 2011 = 22, 2012 = 17, 2013 = 19, 2014 = 22, 2015 = 20+x
Sunday - 2011 = 56, 2012 = 65, 2013 = 68, 2014 = 67, 2015 = 66
Total - 2011 = 78, 2012 = 82, 2013 = 87, 2014 = 89, 2015 = x+86

Under 11
Not Sunday - 2011 = 9, 2012 = 16, 2013 = 18, 2014 = 12, 2015 = 14+x
Sunday - 2011 = 61, 2012 = 63, 2013 = 63, 2014 = 69, 2015 = 65
Total - 2011 = 70, 2012 = 79, 2013 = 81, 2014 = 81, 2015 = x+79

Under 12
Not Sunday - 2011 = 5, 2012 = 17, 2013 = 8, 2014 = 13, 2015 = 6+x
Sunday - 2011 = 42, 2012 = 57, 2013 = 54, 2014 = 53, 2015 = 61
Total - 2011 = 47, 2012 = 74, 2013 = 62, 2014 = 66, 2015 = x+67

Under 13
Not Sunday - 2011 = 6, 2012 = 11, 2013 = 3, 2014 = 0, 2015 = x
Sunday - 2011 = 49, 2012 = 42, 2013 = 46, 2014 = 40, 2015 = 46
Total - 2011 = 55, 2012 = 53, 2013 = 49, 2014 = 40, 2015 = x+46

Under 14
Not Sunday - 2011 = 7, 2012 = 9, 2013 = 0, 2014 = 0, 2015 = x
Sunday - 2011 = 38, 2012 = 39, 2013 = 39, 2014 = 40, 2015 = 40
Total - 2011 = 45, 2012 = 48, 2013 = 39, 2014 = 40, 2015 = x+40

Under 15
Not Sunday - 2011 = 2, 2012 = 4, 2013 = 5, 2014 = 0, 2015 = x
Sunday - 2011 = 32, 2012 = 35, 2013 = 39, 2014 = 28, 2015 = 32
Total - 2011 = 34, 2012 = 39, 2013 = 44, 2014 = 28, 2015 = x +32

Under 16
Not Sunday - 2011 = 3, 2012 = 7, 2013 = 0, 2014 = 0, 2015 = x
Sunday - 2011 = 24, 2012 = 24, 2013 = 21, 2014 = 19, 2015 = 12
Total - 2011 = 27, 2012 = 31, 2013 = 13, 2014 = 19, 2015 = x+12

Open (2015 = U16/17 teams and U17/18 "opens")
Not Sunday - 2011 = 1, 2012 = 6, 2013 = 0, 2014 = 0, 2015 = x
Sunday - 2011 = 12, 2012 = 22, 2013 = 13, 2014 = 11, 2015 = 14
Total - 2011 = 13, 2012 = 28, 2013 = 13, 2014 = 11, 2015 = x +14

All Grades (U10 - Open)
Not Sunday - 2011 = 55, 2012 = 87, 2013 = 53, 2014 = 47, 2015 = 40+x
Sunday - 2011 = 314, 2012 = 347, 2013 = 343, 2014 = 327, 2015 = 336
Total - 2011 = 369, 2012 = 434, 2013 = 396, 2014 = 374, 2015 = 376+x

Don't have the confirmed Saturday team numbers so below is just the sunday comp. x is the number of Saturday Comp teams in the respective grades.

Over the past 5 years, the team numbers for the Born 1997 cohort in the SJRU competition been thus: 45, 39, 13, 11, ?? spread between opens and colts (Under 18 this year)
Over the past 5 years, the team numbers for the Born 1998 cohort in the SJRU competition been thus: 55, 48, 44, 19, 7+? (Under 17 this year) [7 mixed 16A/17A teams in 2015]
Over the past 5 years, the team numbers for the Born 1999 cohort in the SJRU competition been thus: 47, 53, 39, 28, 12+x+? (Under 16 this year) [7 mixed 16A/17A teams in 2015]
Over the past 5 years, the team numbers for the Born 2000 cohort in the SJRU competition been thus: 70, 74, 49, 40, 32+x (Under 15 this year)
Over the past 5 years, the team numbers for the Born 2001 cohort in the SJRU competition been thus: 78, 79, 62, 40, 40+x (Under 14 this year)
Over the past 4 years, the team numbers for the Born 2002 cohort in the SJRU competition been thus: 82, 81, 66, 46+x (Under 13 this year)
Over the past 3 years, the team numbers for the Born 2003 cohort in the SJRU competition been thus: 87, 81, 67+x (Under 12 this year)
Over the past 2 years, the team numbers for the Born 2004 cohort in the SJRU competition has been thus: 89, 79+x (Under 11 this year)
This year the team numbers for the Born 2005 cohort (U10) in the SJRU competition is: 86+x

Gut feel is that the Sunday competition for 2015 is experiencing slight growth in numbers in the U15 and below age groups, and slight decline in the U16 and above.

The full analysis on The Saturday U18 Colts comp and Opens Sunday and new U16/U17 comp have yet to be done. The "pathway" at these age groups is becoming like trying to get home via the M4 at rush hour.

Edited to include Friday Night comp team numbers below.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^Friday night competition:

10s - 20 teams
11s - 14 teams
12 - 6 teams

I have no information on Saturday competitions or even if there are any.

EDIT: To my knowledge no draw has been circulated for any Saturday competition.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The NSW JRU constitution requires the AGM to be held before November 30 each year.

The most recent version of the SJRU Constitution does not set a date for their AGM, leaving it up to the discretion of the Board, however as the duly elected President of SJRU is an Executive Vice President of the NSW JRU, it is a safe assumption that the SJRU AGM must also have been held prior to Nov 30 this year.

Anyone know who the current incumbents for the NSW JRU and SJRU various Committee/Board positions are?

As of today, neither the 2013 or 2014 annual report is available for reading on the Sydney Junior RU web site. I note that the SJRU constitution requires the Secretary to send all members of SJRU (Clubs, Zones and Districts) the SJRU financial statements, Board report and Auditors report.

I might have to approach the local Village Club to see if they have received their copy of the records from SJRU.

Any word on the 2015 SJRU AGM?

What are the hot issues that need to be resolved in 2016?

Still no Annual Reports from 2013 onwards on the SJRU web page.

 

[S'UP]

2015 SJRU AGM was held on Monday night at North Ryde RSL