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Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

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loiterer

Sydney Middleton (9)
But all the issues he talks about are occurring now when junior club rugby is played on a Sunday. How do they aid your point of view?

All the issues and problems that Brainstrust was talking about are occurring now - i.e. when club rugby is played on a Sunday. So if Sunday rugby was the answer to the problems they'd be solved by now.


Brainstrust has indicated that there are risks in moving to a Saturday. Rugby can't afford to take private school kids for granted. Competitive sports are better resourced and looking to further expand into rugby's home territory.

The ARU, unfortunately, doesn't have the resources to take on the NRL, the AFL and FFA. The ARU's primary asset is that rugby is a truly international game that Australia can excel at. While soccer is an international game that we are minnows at. While we are the world champions at rugby league and AFL, no one else plays them. (away game at Cape Town v away game at Campbelltown, having been to both I prefer Cape Town)

Unfortunately the bar is set incredibly high for rugby, we need to beat our nearest neighbours consistently the world's best rugby team - being second in the world is failure. Whereas in AFL and league coming second is pretty much impossible.

Rugby has to play a defensive game until it is better resourced. Its best bet is to develop those players more likely to stick with it. Whilst some league players can recognise rugby's inherent superiority as a game, rugby doesn't have the resources to throw at them to the same extent that league does.

The environment that rugby faces is different to what it was 20 years ago, trying to turn the clock back won't work, it will just leave the game more exposed to its competitive threats.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
^^^^^^^^
Aussie Rules was played at Riverview in the 70's.
Soccer was barely played in the GPS in the 70's.
The point about non-private school kids is that they do not have to play for the school on the weekends at all. You can tap into that potential.
In order to tap that potential you do not have to pander to the private school kids.
The ARU has left a great deal of the development of the game to the private schools and as has been pointed out previously in this thread while that saves them money and resources it essentially means they have had little to no control over how the development takes place.
If the point of directing me to the article is to show that rugby is under threat in private schools then (a) it has been since the 70's its just that most of the WASPy private schools haven't noticed it and have thought that it would only affect the schools with non anglo-celtic children, and (b) all the more reason to try to widen the rugby playing demographic.
The other aspect is that the AFL model discussed - where the school plays in a comp of mixed club and school sides (as they do in the ACT in rugby) is a much better model - but it will never take off.
No one will stop the schools doing what the school's want to do.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Brainstrust has indicated that there are risks in moving to a Saturday. Rugby can't afford to take private school kids for granted. Competitive sports are better resourced and looking to further expand into rugby's home territory.

The ARU, unfortunately, doesn't have the resources to take on the NRL, the AFL and FFA. The ARU's primary asset is that rugby is a truly international game that Australia can excel at. While soccer is an international game that we are minnows at. While we are the world champions at rugby league and AFL, no one else plays them. (away game at Cape Town v away game at Campbelltown, having been to both I prefer Cape Town)

Unfortunately the bar is set incredibly high for rugby, we need to beat our nearest neighbours consistently the world's best rugby team - being second in the world is failure. Whereas in AFL and league coming second is pretty much impossible.

Rugby has to play a defensive game until it is better resourced. Its best bet is to develop those players more likely to stick with it. Whilst some league players can recognise rugby's inherent superiority as a game, rugby doesn't have the resources to throw at them to the same extent that league does.

The environment that rugby faces is different to what it was 20 years ago, trying to turn the clock back won't work, it will just leave the game more exposed to its competitive threats.

Well there are risks in anything - moving from Saturday to Sunday was a risk and if the decline in teams and players in the 15 years since it happened are anything to go by the risk hasn't paid off.

Rugby faces the same issues as all sports in attracting and retaining players. It's been said on this thread before, but the big problem facing rugby is that most of our district clubs reflect Sydney of 1914 not 2014. As the city expanded from the 1970s onwards, there was no plan or no effort made into moving with the population and to establish a rugby presence in growth areas. Not to say that we had to be bigger than league, just that we needed a presence similar to what we have in other parts of the city. I'm lucky - there are 4 junior rugby clubs within 15 mins of where I live and every primary school in the area is convered by a junior club. There are many places in western and south-western Sydney where there are no junior clubs within 45-60 mins and most primary aged kids have no local rugby option at all.

What rugby administrators did, was to rely on the private school system to develop most of the elite talent. This was fine in the amateur era when 8 GPS and 6 CAS schools in Sydney and a similar number in Brisbane could produce enough good players to keep things going - supplemented by players who had come the the club system/state school system. But in the professional era this isn't going to work and the club system (which once operated from 9am-4.30pm every Saturday) has now reached crisis point. Read the first post of this thread - which is correspondence from SJRU to its clubs - even they've recognised the problem.

I don't really buy the resources argument - it's easy to look at AFL and league and say that they have more money than us, which they do. But there are plenty of sports with a lower profile and less resources than rugby who have managed to move with Sydney and establish themselves right across the city. As you know my daughter plays hockey - junior numbers have tripled in the past 5 years and hockey has nowhere near the resources that rugby does.

If you take out sports which need water to take place like sailing and rowing, rugby is one of the few sports which is not spread uniformly across the city. We're big on the upper north shore, holding our own in places like the northern beaches, but almost invisible in many parts of Sydney. And with the exception of rowing, we're the only sport that I know of where the club system takes second place to the school system. In other sports, the school systems are the icing on the cake, with rugby it's the cake. We're actually competing against ourselves as well as other sports in a way.

No easy answers and it's harder to fix than it was to break in the first place.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
In the U16A Grand Final Hills defeated Raptors 26 - 5.

Beecroft won the 16B Grand Final over Burraneer, Hunters Hill won the 15As and Blacktown the 14As.

A fairly even spread.

I understand that in the 10As Chatswood beat the previously undefeated Harbord 5-0 to take the premiership. Well done.
 

S'UP

Bill Watson (15)
In the U16A Grand Final Hills defeated Raptors 26 - 5.

Beecroft won the 16B Grand Final over Burraneer, Hunters Hill won the 15As and Blacktown the 14As.

Wests 17 defeated Dural 14 in the opens, Hills played great rugby in the 16a's, Beecroft beat the undefeated Burraneer 17 - 7
 

Colin Windon

Herbert Moran (7)
Congratulations go to Hayley Goodacre who recently received the NSWRU Junior Referee of the Year Award. Hayley and her family have been active members of the Beecroft Junior Rugby Club for many years and it is great to see her efforts as a rugby referee recognized.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Here's your chance
Screen Shot 2014-09-26 at 13.48.58.png
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
I understand that one proposal will be:

The number of past rep players will determine the lowest grade in which a team can play. i.e.

12 reps - must play in As
8 reps - must play no lower than Bs
4 reps - must play no lower than Cs

I'm told that Mosman 15s, with 12 rep players, were in the C comp this year and beat Roseville 31-0 in the GF.;)
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I'm told that Mosman 15s, with 12 rep players, were in the C comp this year and beat Roseville 31-0 in the GF.;)

So what will happen to that Mosman team (or any other like it) when the 12 get pushed up to A's and the C graders don't want to play A grade (and I know this happens and has happened at this club in the past)?
Or do you just boot 4 of the reps and play B's?
Conceivably you will prevent Mosman fielding a C team and may well produce a situation in which it then has no team in 16s next year.
So then their 12 reps get with 11 reps from Hunter Hill (being the Norths State Champs Team) to play A grade and lo and behold they are pilloried for being a super team put together to win comps and prepare all year for the state champs.
The good sense of the proposal is plain but beware the law of unintended consequences.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
So what will happen to that Mosman team (or any other like it) when the 12 get pushed up to A's and the C graders don't want to play A grade (and I know this happens and has happened at this club in the past)?
Or do you just boot 4 of the reps and play B's?
Conceivably you will prevent Mosman fielding a C team and may well produce a situation in which it then has no team in 16s next year.
So then their 12 reps get with 11 reps from Hunter Hill (being the Norths State Champs Team) to play A grade and lo and behold they are pilloried for being a super team put together to win comps and prepare all year for the state champs.
The good sense of the proposal is plain but beware the law of unintended consequences.

It's a response to one of the unintended consequences of a Sydney wide competition, which is that the A grade is so strong that most boys don't want to play in it. There is an unstoppable march which will mean that A grade will be de-facto district rep teams under another badge.

The above proposal isn't mine, but I agree with it in general terms - whether it gets up will be interesting.

On your scenario re the Mosman 15s - which is no doubt a plausible one - there is no "right" answer, because you can't legislate for all contingencies and there are people out there rorting the system (I'm not saying that this applies to this team - it's the example which was given to me). But I would say that the reason some boys don't want to play As is because they don't want to cop a flogging every week which is fair enough, but what about the kids playing C grade who have to play a team with 12 reps?
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
It's a response to one of the unintended consequences of a Sydney wide competition, which is that the A grade is so strong that most boys don't want to play in it. There is an unstoppable march which will mean that A grade will be de-facto district rep teams under another badge.

The above proposal isn't mine, but I agree with it in general terms - whether it gets up will be interesting.

On your scenario re the Mosman 15s - which is no doubt a plausible one - there is no "right" answer, because you can't legislate for all contingencies and there are people out there rorting the system (I'm not saying that this applies to this team - it's the example which was given to me). But I would say that the reason some boys don't want to play As is because they don't want to cop a flogging every week which is fair enough, but what about the kids playing C grade who have to play a team with 12 reps?

All true.
What is required is a "vision" (To use John Ribot's expression) which defines how they want the comp to look in 2 year's time. And then they need to communicate that vision.
Another factor is that Mosman would be heavily affected in this age group by the loss of players to schools, one would expect.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
^^^A couple of things that they might envisage:

10s and 11s (and possibly 12s) cease to be Sydney wide competitions. I'd reckon that Manly & Warringah could run 3 divisions, Norths and Gordon 3 divisions, Parra/Wests/Eastwood/Penrith 3 divisions and Randwick/Easts/Souths/Uni 2 or 3 divisions.

It wouldn't produce any more mismatches than the current system where 80 plus teams are graded into divisions across greater Sydney. This is basically an honour system where clubs nominate their teams for particular grades and SJRU tinker with it after 3 or 4 rounds.

Once we go to Sydney wide, we need to recognise that the limited number of boys who are willing and able to play A grade are the same boys who play district reps (by and large). This might as well function as such and eliminate the need for the June long weekend rep extravaganza. These should feed into JGC aligned rep teams for a tournament (after the regular season has finished).

Eliminate the unecessary travel in the younger years, eliminate the interruption of the June long weekend to the club season and eliminate JGC teams having to play in January.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
What happens to a club team that contains a large number of District rep players if that District is the wooden spoon winning team from State Champs?

Not all Rep players are of the same standard. Some District Rep teams are B grade compared to some of the top State cup teams/districts.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
What happens to a club team that contains a large number of District rep players if that District is the wooden spoon winning team from State Champs?

Not all Rep players are of the same standard. Some District Rep teams are B grade compared to some of the top State cup teams/districts.

Someone always has to come last. Why should a bunch of kids in C grade be cannon fodder for a bunch of rep kids who don't want to get beaten?
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Not wanting to be beaten may not be the reason the team exists.
Everyone talks of playing with mates, although I ahappen to think the game should teach you to become mates with the guys you play with.
Be all that as it may if they're so obviously better how came the regrading didn't pick them up?
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Not wanting to be beaten may not be the reason the team exists.
Everyone talks of playing with mates, although I ahappen to think the game should teach you to become mates with the guys you play with.
Be all that as it may if they're so obviously better how came the regrading didn't pick them up?

It's not the reason that the kids play, but it may be the reason why adults nominate them for a particular grade.

IMO rugby (or at least the people who run it) have almost completely lost sight of the reason that most people play i.e. to have fun with their mates. The majority don't see themselves on the path to Wallaby gold, but junior rugby seems obsessed with layers of rep rugby, pathways etc.

I'd prefer boys to be playing with their mates in a local competition, where the necessity to create super teams is less, because the talent is more diluted. Once all the talent in Sydney is put into one competition, the unintended consequence is that it becomes a defacto rep competition in which teams that aren't made up substantially from rep players just cannot compete in the A grade.

The alternative to making teams made up of mostly rep players play in A grade is to have an A grade of 3 or 4 teams. Most kids don't want to play in it because most kids want to have fun with their mates and don't want to be cannon fodder for those on the pathway. (see paragraph 2)
 
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