Concussions and Protecting Our Players

[suckerforred]

One thing I have noticed at a grass roots level is that I am meeting little resistance from players now getting them to come off the field after a head knock. I would like to think that that is because I have been forwarding all of these articles onto the committee, coaches & everone involved in general. I am having less sucess in getting them to lay of the beer however....

Education is the key and the more players that read these articles the better looked after they will be as the players themselves will understand what the risks are.

 

[Refabit]

My small contribution to "Concussions & Protecting Players" are my 2013 stats: 8 yellow cards, 7 red cards.
So far I've heard no complaints from sidelines, although I am prone to selective deafness.

 

[Rassie]

How many people died already because of concussions? Stats anyone?

 

[suckerforred]

How many people died already because of concussions? Stats anyone?

Technically they have died because of a head injury - not a concussion. One off the top of my head this year.

Sorry being pedantic.

 

[Gnostic]

How many people died already because of concussions? Stats anyone?

What Suckerforred posted. Also the issue gets further clouded in terms of deaths when there are underlying medial issues which were undiagnosed. I don't know of any first hand but a mate is a paramedic and he has dealt with a few hospitalisations from sports head knocks where the patient has later died. One died nearly three weeks later after returning to work and resuming normal life. He apparently didn't seek further medical attention despite worsening dizziness and nausea.

Education is a key, not only for officials but players.

 

[Rassie]

Technically they have died because of a head injury - not a concussion. One off the top of my head this year.

Sorry being pedantic.

lol Don't think a autopsy will say head injury. It will state the brain trauma. But then again its classed as a mild injury to the brain.

Why all of a sudden have all the concussion worry started flaring up? I mean it sums up pretty much how stupid the IRB or whoever is in charge of the laws can be. If one look around at contact sports one can easily find data which one can use before you decide to change the rules and try to get the ball in play time up and up.

I mean seriously what did they expect. Massive 100kg monsters wrestling with each other. Next time you see some of those technicolor films from the rugby's past, take a few seconds and check the size of the players. The men and the protective gear were much smaller than they are today. Players are also faster, and so are the fields on which they play. Anyone who’s studied rudimentary physics can do the equations and figure out what all this means.

It means that when a player gets hit by an onrushing tackler in the year 2013, the players is getting hit a lot harder, and his skull is going to sustain much more damage. Combined with the fact that money is so much greater today—and that every proffesional rugby player knows that putting a star player or one of the key players in a team out of business is the quickest way to take a team out of a World Cup or whatever tournament hunt—and the incentive to give a concussion is multiplied exponentially.

It accidentally happened twice in the World Cup and it accidentally happened to key players getting knocked senseless. Then add the IRB changing laws which now means double the rucks, double the contact. People seem to forget although kicking is not everyones favorite it also give the players a break from the hits and they can take a breather.
IRB have messed with the laws time and time again and most of the times it had the opposite effect on the game. Look at the game now? Less and less tries being scored from within the teams own half. THe ball is slow so teams can just fan out and its wall after wall that you need to get thru. Teams are now using size mismatches to break the lines like a power center running over a 10.

During childhood and adolescence, much more bone tissue is deposited than broken down, so the skeleton grows in size and strength. During early adulthood, breakdown slowly begins to exceed deposits. As a person ages, bone tissue is depleted, and bones are weakened and increasingly susceptible to breaks.

I can tell you now that if someone compile lists of the career span of rugby players over the years they are heading to the NFL standards which is about 4 years then your injury prone and have to retire.

 

[Gnostic]

Rassie a couple of things.

I know I ramble mate, but can you please break your posts into a few separate ones on the separate points. These are becoming incomprehensible, or at least use some bullet points.

As for anybody deliberately targeting another player with the intent to cause the injuries you state in paragraph 2. It is just not in the ethos of Rugby, and whilst there have been more than a couple of incidents like this those involved suffer from the loss of respect and I certainly hope these days the loss of any lengthy playing career. It is a blight on the game and MUST be rubbed out along with any perpetrator. I remain deeply pissed of that the NZRU openly revere Richard Loe and Colin Meads after their absolute acts of thuggery on the field.

 

[Rassie]

Rassie a couple of things.

I know I ramble mate, but can you please break your posts into a few separate ones on the separate points. These are becoming incomprehensible, or at least use some bullet points.

As for anybody deliberately targeting another player with the intent to cause the injuries you state in paragraph 2. It is just not in the ethos of Rugby, and whilst there have been more than a couple of incidents like this those involved suffer from the loss of respect and I certainly hope these days the loss of any lengthy playing career. It is a blight on the game and MUST be rubbed out along with any perpetrator. I remain deeply pissed of that the NZRU openly revere Richard Loe and Colin Meads after their absolute acts of thuggery on the field.

Its not the ethics of rugby? Players to try and break other peoples arms, strangling of another. When money is involved ethics pretty much fly out the window.

Rugby is still relatively new to professionalism. But you can see the hunt for more money like all other sports is starting to set in. First franchises gets created. Then the tv and add deals. Then expanding. More expanding. Prize money goes up.

The question is if one person stands between you and the World CUp and a huge amount of a bonus, would take the opportunity to remove him from the game? Like they do in NFL? Nice mild head bump. Out of the game.

You will notice that even with all these suspensions and citings players do it even more. Just look at Richie McCaw and how has he been targeted.

But that is just one point my other is 100kg's bloke crashing into each other more and more and more. Ball in play time increases and increases. Guys like Gio Aplon 's size will be extinct in a couple of years time.

Ps. I did break it in paragraphs but the browser sort of reloads and at times delete the spaces when I apply.

 

[Gnostic]

It is a fantasy that most seem to believe that Rugby players are getting bigger. We actually saw an increase in the size of Hookers through the 80's and 90s as the hit came to prominence in the scrum. But apart from that the players have been about the same overt mass. They are fitter and probably on a whole faster but that is about it. I do not think that average weights are that much higher now.

Do you know who the first 100Kg winger I can recall was? 1988 Inga Tuigamala. Quite a time before professionalism and I have no doubt there were others before him, it is just size was never a pre-determining factor for selection, it was more a factor of skill set and fitting into the team.

If you look at the 1991 Wallabies backrow and compare it to the 2013 backrow that started against the Lions I would suggest that the 2013 edition was outweighed by a few kilos.

I know what you are saying with regard to money corrupting, but as far as I am concerned and every Rugby person I know and associate with, the deliberate targeting of a player with the intent to main or injure them is just abhorrent and could not be tolerated amongst our team-mates let alone the opposition. I certainly would not support a member of any club I am involved with acting in such a fashion. Even in professional Rugby this is not part of the ethos.

 

[I like to watch]

They might not be getting bigger, but they are stronger,fitter and have massively improved technique.
Contact is much heavier than in years gone by.
You just have to look at games pre professionalism, if those guys played with that preparation and technique,many would struggle at Club level today IMO.

 

[boyo]

How many people died already because of concussions? Stats anyone?

Ben Robinson 13yo Belfast

Willie Halaifonua 23/07/2013 Auckland

Eric Pelly 18yo 30/09/2006 Pittsburgh

Rowan Stringer 17yo 2013 Ottawa

 

[Rassie]

It is a fantasy that most seem to believe that Rugby players are getting bigger. We actually saw an increase in the size of Hookers through the 80's and 90s as the hit came to prominence in the scrum. But apart from that the players have been about the same overt mass. They are fitter and probably on a whole faster but that is about it. I do not think that average weights are that much higher now.

Do you know who the first 100Kg winger I can recall was? 1988 Inga Tuigamala. Quite a time before professionalism and I have no doubt there were others before him, it is just size was never a pre-determining factor for selection, it was more a factor of skill set and fitting into the team.

If you look at the 1991 Wallabies backrow and compare it to the 2013 backrow that started against the Lions I would suggest that the 2013 edition was outweighed by a few kilos.

I know what you are saying with regard to money corrupting, but as far as I am concerned and every Rugby person I know and associate with, the deliberate targeting of a player with the intent to main or injure them is just abhorrent and could not be tolerated amongst our team-mates let alone the opposition. I certainly would not support a member of any club I am involved with acting in such a fashion. Even in professional Rugby this is not part of the ethos.

Olds (2001) used historical data to track the evolution of physique in male rugby union players from 1905 to 1999. It was shown that the body mass index had increased at a rate three to four times faster in rugby union players during the last 25-years compared to the rest of the century. In addition, a more recent study showed rapid increases in mass (~10%) since the inception of the professional era (Quarrie & Hopkins, 2007).

Look at this. This is kids!

Professional athletes are entertainers, and they use a promotional and heroic rhetoric that presents images of revenge, retaliation, hate, hostility, intimidation, aggression, violence, domination, and destruction. These melodramatic images attract attention and serve commercial purposes.

 

[Rassie]

Ben Robinson 13yo Belfast

Willie Halaifonua 23/07/2013 Auckland

Eric Pelly 18yo 30/09/2006 Pittsburgh

Rowan Stringer 17yo 2013 Ottawa

Is the serious injuries and fatalities increasing or has it decreased since the game went professional?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I remain deeply pissed of that the NZRU openly revere Richard Loe and Colin Meads after their absolute acts of thuggery on the field.

Mee bloody too!

 

[suckerforred]

Rassie, I am not sure that the main issue with the management of concussion is the death of the player. What is coming to light now is the longer term effects of multiple concussive & sub-concussive affects on the brain. These are cronic effects that take longer to become apparent & have a far more detamential effect on a person & their families lives then thought even a few years ago.

The advent of professionalism has brought many of these issues to light. Why? Well, prior to sport being professional players had relatively short careers as they had to 'retire' so that they could earn a living to support their families. There were very few players, even those playing in the 80's, who had extended careers at a high level.

There are a few medical issues that are related to repeated 'concussions'.

1. Death - One hit might cause a bleed. The second, and subsequent hits, hit will make the bleed worse. If this is bad enough, or in particular areas of the brain, death will be a result. Possibly even with the first hit.

2. Each hit makes the injury from the previous hit more serious. To relate to to a visual injury - you cut your leg. Each time you knock the scab off, the length of time that it takes to heal is longer & the worse the scar is going to be. In the brain this means that the risk of premanant effects on the 'performance' of the body, physically & mentally, increase as the injury extends or scar tissue forms.

3. Rugby, & all contact sports in general, carries a risk of injury. This risk is higher than normal every day life. What we are discussing & need to consider is the management of said risks & minimising the effect these risks have on the furture of players.

I could crap on for a lot longer but I had better do some work.

 

[suckerforred]

I rarely agree with Grumbles but.....

In this case I most certainly do.

 

[young gun]

Rassie, I am not sure that the main issue with the management of concussion is the death of the player. What is coming to light now is the longer term effects of multiple concussive & sub-concussive affects on the brain. These are cronic effects that take longer to become apparent & have a far more detamential effect on a person & their families lives then thought even a few years ago.

The advent of professionalism has brought many of these issues to light. Why? Well, prior to sport being professional players had relatively short careers as they had to 'retire' so that they could earn a living to support their families. There were very few players, even those playing in the 80's, who had extended careers at a high level.

There are a few medical issues that are related to repeated 'concussions'.

1. Death - One hit might cause a bleed. The second, and subsequent hits, hit will make the bleed worse. If this is bad enough, or in particular areas of the brain, death will be a result. Possibly even with the first hit.

2. Each hit makes the injury from the previous hit more serious. To relate to to a visual injury - you cut your leg. Each time you knock the scab off, the length of time that it takes to heal is longer & the worse the scar is going to be. In the brain this means that the risk of premanant effects on the 'performance' of the body, physically & mentally, increase as the injury extends or scar tissue forms.

3. Rugby, & all contact sports in general, carries a risk of injury. This risk is higher than normal every day life. What we are discussing & need to consider is the management of said risks & minimising the effect these risks have on the furture of players.

I could crap on for a lot longer but I had better do some work.

Just to add a little further information around how sensitive the brain is to repeated impact, and how little was known about it in the past, I remember, about 15 years, being in London and watching a documentary on TV that was exposing how something like (I can't remember the exact details, but I'll be roughly right) 8 or 9 players (from the one team) that played in an FA Cup (soccer) final in the 1920's ended up with alzheimers at relatively early ages.

All they could conclude then (15 years ago) was that possibly it was the result of heading the old leather soccer balls that weighed a ton when muddy and wet. Don't know if that was the only recorded instance or any other stat's around other players from that period, but since this programme pre-dated the current debate by some years, it's interesting.

 

[Rassie]

Suckerforred, I understand how a concussion works. What I am trying to establish is a couple of things.



1) In what levels does it happen a lot. Juniors, Senior, International level etc etc

2) In what situations? Scrum, Mauls, during tackle situation, rucks, foul play etc etc

3) Does it occur more to players playing in the backline or the forwards. Are certain positions on the rugby field more are risk?



The other problem is the concussion tests. Players scored low on purpose when they set the bar for it to pass it with a concussion.



You would be surprised but at amateur level players are more at risk getting concussed as lack of proper coaching with tackling, rucking techniques etc etc



At junior levels there is also a high risk due to size mismatches. In SA there have been talks to start thinking about weight groups for kids to play in rather than age as some kids develop bigger at younger age to due to other factors eg. like nutrition, genes, etc etc



It will be easier tp establish the where, when, what, who first then start with the how to protect them.



Currently we are thinking about the protection after a concussion have already happened. Shouldn't we be thinking about the prevention of it first? That is why I ask how many have died due to it as any head injury can be serious and we do not want to see it happen to anyone. What was more alarming was when they posted the names of fatalities and the first name was a 14 year old kid!



Currently the other alarming factor is that in most of the countries its survival of the fittest. The bigger stronger guys get to the top of rugby. That is why in SA, England and NZ the numbers fall during the levels and Australia is one of the few that the numbers actually increase. Also the reason why I asked in another thread what age groups do they start to play contact and what are the restrictions. Lot of kids might get discourage of getting bullied by the bigger guys in rugby and lose confidence and interest in playing due to fear of injury.



And that is the one problem with rugby. Its a game that starts with intimidation and violence as well as the fear of injury is one of the major weapons in any teams arsenal.



Look at what happened to O Driscoll when he gave the wrong look when NZ did the Haka in 2005 during the Lions tours. NZ start their intimidation before the game starts and if you can not stand up to it they already have beaten you before the game has started. England had Johnson as their captain to scare the bejesus out of the opposing team at the coin toss. Intimidation and violence is there have always be there we just do not notice it.

 

[suckerforred]

Actually I am not surprised at the level of concussion at amateur levels. I spend a lot of time in amateur circles and some time in professional circles so there are not many surprises. However, it is the preception that there is more pressure to play on after a head knock at a higher level since there is usually more at stake.

I now understand what you are getting at. And yes I agree that we probably do not have the data that that we would like to be able to address a lot of the issues and questions that are arising. And, yes prevention would also be better than the cure, but this thread started as a discussion on how a concussion is managed after it has occured, not how we prevent them.

I believe that the biggest factor in both prevention and management is, and will be, education. I like to believe that rugby has moved on from the 'kill or be killed' mindset but apparently you think it is somewhat intrenched. This is a pity, and certainly on the prevention front will have to be changed.

 

[Pfitzy]

Stats at every coaching and AR course I've done indicate tackle area is the most likely for more serious injuries, including concussion.

Not surprising really, as it is the most common form of contact in the game, and has many more variables compared to the scrum, lineout, maul. The ruck comes close, but there are less moving parts overall, less random physics.

Low level rugby has more size mismatches than pro rugby, so while the physics sometimes isn't as great overall, the difference between object A (my head) and Object B (the shoulder of the 130kg Maori chap) puts Object A at a significant disadvantage.

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