DPK
Peter Sullivan (51)
It would have to be a 4 way, ACT wouldn't bite. WA/Vic?
Edit: At that point, you'd just be playing the Super 15 with the Rebels and the Force together. God knows what kind of awful jersey that would produce...
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It would have to be a 4 way, ACT wouldn't bite. WA/Vic?
Edit: At that point, you'd just be playing the Super 15 with the Rebels and the Force together. God knows what kind of awful jersey that would produce...
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Was thinking more along a State of Origin rather than Current S15 Franchise competition.
After the S14/S15 is over many players from Rebels, Brumbies and Force return to Brisbane and Sydney Clubs.
As The Brown Hornet noted earlier, the WA comp will soon regularly produce quality players domestically.
When WA get to that level, I see these blokes + the Best of ACT combining to play Best of Brisbane Clubs vs Best of Sydney Clubs in a 3 way State of the Union competition.
Not sure that ACT reps alone would be competitive vs Sydney reps or Brisbane Reps.
T
TOCC
Guest
dont confuse revenue with player numbers..
about 80% of the revenue for the QRU and 90% of revenue for RugbyWA is for commercial operations(ie the super14 sides).
RugbyWA's revenue is higher because of Force sponsorship and membership, they were higher then the Reds in both categories in 2009.
T
TOCC
Guest
once again i must apologise, my original intent was not to make this a code vs code thing, it was to compare australian super14 sides and i just included 2 of the best performing clubs from AFL and NRL for a quick comparison.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
[* Sorry this is a long post, it sort of has to be. Short post adherents, please scroll down....now!]
Has anyone yet read this depressing - but almost all hard-facts-based - article? Even JO'N is downcast in it. Along with TOCC's figures it captures the essential economic, fan-base and revenue-trend truth of Australian rugby 2003-2010, namely:
- over recent years, the game is largely in decline in all of general income, fan attendance and State-based profitability. It's ability to pull blockbuster crowds for big games a la 1999-2001 is extinct (for now anyway). Test crowds have generally shrunk in the last 3 years. The bumper RWC 2003 cash receipt to the ARU has been heavily depleted, and there's little to show for that disbursement. By end 2009, the QRU (say, what, 35-40% of all Aus rugby) was essentially bankrupt and needed bailing out via a multi-million $ emergency loan from the ARU (something the ARU can scarcely afford). NSW RU's finances and net cash flow are under increasing strain, principally as gate receipts have kept on declining over the last 3 or so years (a kind of early stage version of the QRU problems that arose from the Reds' years of mediocrity). Rugby's sports market share has declined by an around 30%+ rate and 8% absolutely since 2003. The economic 'saviour' of late has been SANZAR TV rights where Australia's take-out share is in effect subsidised by rugby's high popularity in NZ and RSA.
If these trends continue in anything like this form, the code in Australia risks being in inexorably very serious financial and fan-base trouble within 3-5 years, in a manner that may not be able to be saved by anything but governmental subsidy or some form of total private equity take over, both of which are unlikely (how to save a death bed sporting code?), and/or could have awful consequences for the integrity of the game in this country. (NB: GG reports the Wallabies alone have an annual cost base of $30m pa, rugby in Australia now has a high cost base, and so requires high cash incomes to sustain it, it's no fish and chip shop.)
The principal reasons are largely no-brainers:
- JO's successors were complacent strategically and tactically from late 2003, The 2004-2007 period was, disastrously, an era where arrogance, intellectual laziness and competitive lethargy, all combined - the worst possible 'smugness' of old rugby embalmed in the new era. (As Lee G says so well: rugby in Australia has 'exclusivist' not 'inclusivist' roots.)
- no credible and effective grassroots/local code share growth and penetration strategy was developed post 2003, just when other codes were investing in their own growth strategies;
- the game itself as played at S14 and Test level become slower, more complex (from a fans' perspective) and more turgid, visually less exciting, free flowing, dynamic, etc. AFL, league came to look more engaging, exciting, comprehensible, fast and fun v rugby;
- generally charismatic 'star' rugby players seemed to get fewer and fewer, and the RWC 2007 was a huge disappointment, in terms of the Wallabies and the actual quality of the main games. 'If you live by the RWC sword, you will die by the RWC sword, unless you win.';
- only the Tahs really kept pride up in the S14 from c. 2003; the Brumbies, Reds, Force (from 06) all either declined or didn't get anywhere much. Why wouldn't fans become bored and disillusioned;
- the Wallabies fell into a bad spiral of worsening w-l ratios, the SH silverware accretion rate dropped off to a virtual zero, excuses became the new black of Wallaby rugby. And core problems in crucial player depth and skill - especially around forwards - were not properly and strategically addressed at a national level;
So, our code is unquestionably in a vulnerable and dangerous place in mid-2010. A bad period for the Wallabies and Aus S15 from now to end-2011 could commence a negative tipping point that may never be recovered from. Equally, on the upside, a golden period for these teams in this period may help, but will not be enough on its own.
So, what to do? Here are my 'top 6' outline recommendations (for very near term action), I'd love to hear others'. Mine don't pretend to have every issue and detail thrashed out. Let's be positive and pro-active! (My rough recommendations attempt to combine a mixture of deeper, broader code participation and player development, with key investments in improved code management, at executive and coaching levels.)
1. The new architecture of the S15 has terrific potential, and is a great step forward. But to realise it, almost all the S15 teams/institutions need major clean-outs a la QRU and Reds to bring fresh management, coaching and game development thinking to these teams. Key goal; build a management and player base that works for fan attractiveness and enjoyment via (most games) free flowing and dynamic playing style, not the preservation of the stodgy (and largely failed) status quo. If private equity, new ownership models, and proven sports execs from other codes are needed to clean out the introverted, blazer-wearing fat cats of old and who've taken the game nowhere, and bring in market-driven methods, then so be it. (In fact, new ownership models and more competent code management may be the key to almost all the essential changes needed to restore stability and growth to Aus rugby.)
2. Find some innovative, radical if need be, ways to get rugby into many more of the urban and suburban state schools of (for starters) Sydney and Brisbane and Perth (vs the complete retreat to a private school enclave, as is happening now, and is highly dangerous for the code) + give every registered club player under 18 free or super-cheap tickets to all S15 games bar finals. Get a full-time rugby lobbyist into Canberra and argue (on sports and kids fitness grounds) for support funding for 3 new local rugby clubs in each of Sydney and Brisbane, 2 in Melbourne, 2 in Perth, 1 in Adelaide, 1 in Cairns, 1 in Darwin, plus 2 new clubs in NSW and QLD country. Is this not way better than pink batts, you bloody bet it is!! (Btw, this local club supprt probably needs to be tied to the state school development program in some form.)
3. The never-been-as-low-as-now expectations for the Wallabies have to come up off the floor and w-l excellence must come back by 2011-12, however we have to do it. + bring some form of partial 'pay for performance' remuneration system into the Wallabies to ensure rugby's fat salaries are not becoming a cancer of quiet complacency and an end in themselves thus corroding genuine jersey pride;
4. Ensure the intended world-class National Centre of Rugby Excellence (as canned by Swan in early 08, and was to be at Ballymore) is reinstated as this is crucial to long term player feedstock excellence, and the attractiveness of rugby to elite players vs a choice of other codes. Import the best technical analysts and specialist coaches and support technologies into this Centre and get a part Fed Govt subsidy for its running;
5. Build (for profit) a better and GAGR-like high-tech rugby media communication and analysis system so that rugby commentary was more intelligent, amusing and pervasive, and 24/7, incorporating a large, moderated grass roots blog to attract and hold younger players. Plus aim to subsidise the cost of HD videoing every (or every second) junior game played (pay a Mum or Dad a small allowance!) and placed on YT within 4 hrs of the game so young players could ogle over themselves all day long, and draw their friends in to;
6. Work with SANZAR to ultimate to the IRB that if the playing laws are not made more fan-encouraging by 2012, the SH will break away! The SH MUST be tougher with the NH in this crucial aspect of code strategy.
Above all, we need a non-defeatist and gutsy approach to the obvious need to make radical, sustainable changes to the way the game is managed and developed in Australia over the next 3 years.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
I am probably the oldest person around these parts - so if I might be permitted to put this into an historical context. Firstly, rugby has never been the dominant code in Australia, at least not since the mungoes split away. The game actually died in Queensland in the aftermath of the First World War, and very nearly died as an international sport in the fifties - we were saved by a couple of phenomenally popular Fijian tours.
There has never been much money around, either, not for players, and not for the game as a whole. I knew a number of Wallabies back in the seventies (current and newly retired), and while some of them had certainly benefited from their association with the game, none of them had benefited directly in financial terms.
I went to an international at the old SCG in the sixties against France that drew the princely total of 7,000 spectators. Admittedly, it was a stinking day, rain pouring down. But in those days internationals were also played at the old Sports Ground, which held, from memory, a max of about 11,000. These games were telecast on the ABC, no revenue was raised from this, of course.
The NSWRU went broke in the aftermath of the redevelopment of Concord Oval. They were saved by a big donation from David Clarke of Macquarie Bank. The onset of open professionalism was a major breakthrough for the game in Australia. It came just in time, otherwise the Super League war would have decimated the ranks of our star players which were pretty strong in the aftermath of the successful Australian Schoolboys tours, and the winning of the 1991 RWC. We adapted to professionalism pretty well, and the national team of course won the 1999 RWC - this opened a glorious era for the game.
JON asked to be given additional authority as CEO - from memory he wanted to be given the position of Executive Chairman of the ARU. This power grab was denied - rightly or wrongly, I do not know now - and he left. Flowers took over, and with the benefit of hindsight, clearly did not have the vision or the drive needed to capitalise on the successes that the national team had achieved. He ploughed ahead with the ARC, against the might of the Sydney clubs, and at just the wrong time (during the 2007 RWC, with a lot of rugby supporters overseas at that event, and of course with our best 30 odd players there as well).
The advent of professionalism meant that the players, and particularly the defensive systems, were outrunning the rules, and so the Stellenbosch project was set up. Sadly, while this rules overhaul was a crucial initiative, it was largely wasted because of entrenched opposition from the northern hemisphere unions. We have endured some excruciatingly bad rugby in the meantime. Fortunately, it appears that the corner has turned, and now the rules and the interpretations are on the right track.
During these latter years the Waratahs have particularly disappointed in their style of play - they play in the most strongly contested cauldron of league in the world, and the crowds have suffered as punters have voted with their feet. McKenzie's period of coach saw a dismal decline, sadly Chris Hickey has been little better.
A word about rugby in the schools. Schools, either private or public, will play the sports that the kids and the parents want them to. Rugby is still in there in a number of state schools - however, the private schools are picking the eyes out of the state school talent. This is an unfortunate, and probably understandable, concomitant of professionalism. The role of Sydney University, and its pillaging of the rugby talent created by all the other clubs and exploiting the other clubs' hard work in junior development is another very unfortunate aspect of rugby's comparative demise in Sydney Probably worth a thread of its own.
Finally, we have a world cup coming up, a rampant and attractive Reds side that will only get better, an expanded and lengthened Super Rugby season, and then a Lions tour. Sevens coming into the Olympic Games. What goes around, comes around. Rugby will never be the monarch of Australian sports (at least, not until the mungoes merge with us) but it will always be here. It has been through far worse and survived.
There has never been much money around, either, not for players, and not for the game as a whole. I knew a number of Wallabies back in the seventies (current and newly retired), and while some of them had certainly benefited from their association with the game, none of them had benefited directly in financial terms.
I went to an international at the old SCG in the sixties against France that drew the princely total of 7,000 spectators. Admittedly, it was a stinking day, rain pouring down. But in those days internationals were also played at the old Sports Ground, which held, from memory, a max of about 11,000. These games were telecast on the ABC, no revenue was raised from this, of course.
The NSWRU went broke in the aftermath of the redevelopment of Concord Oval. They were saved by a big donation from David Clarke of Macquarie Bank. The onset of open professionalism was a major breakthrough for the game in Australia. It came just in time, otherwise the Super League war would have decimated the ranks of our star players which were pretty strong in the aftermath of the successful Australian Schoolboys tours, and the winning of the 1991 RWC. We adapted to professionalism pretty well, and the national team of course won the 1999 RWC - this opened a glorious era for the game.
JON asked to be given additional authority as CEO - from memory he wanted to be given the position of Executive Chairman of the ARU. This power grab was denied - rightly or wrongly, I do not know now - and he left. Flowers took over, and with the benefit of hindsight, clearly did not have the vision or the drive needed to capitalise on the successes that the national team had achieved. He ploughed ahead with the ARC, against the might of the Sydney clubs, and at just the wrong time (during the 2007 RWC, with a lot of rugby supporters overseas at that event, and of course with our best 30 odd players there as well).
The advent of professionalism meant that the players, and particularly the defensive systems, were outrunning the rules, and so the Stellenbosch project was set up. Sadly, while this rules overhaul was a crucial initiative, it was largely wasted because of entrenched opposition from the northern hemisphere unions. We have endured some excruciatingly bad rugby in the meantime. Fortunately, it appears that the corner has turned, and now the rules and the interpretations are on the right track.
During these latter years the Waratahs have particularly disappointed in their style of play - they play in the most strongly contested cauldron of league in the world, and the crowds have suffered as punters have voted with their feet. McKenzie's period of coach saw a dismal decline, sadly Chris Hickey has been little better.
A word about rugby in the schools. Schools, either private or public, will play the sports that the kids and the parents want them to. Rugby is still in there in a number of state schools - however, the private schools are picking the eyes out of the state school talent. This is an unfortunate, and probably understandable, concomitant of professionalism. The role of Sydney University, and its pillaging of the rugby talent created by all the other clubs and exploiting the other clubs' hard work in junior development is another very unfortunate aspect of rugby's comparative demise in Sydney Probably worth a thread of its own.
Finally, we have a world cup coming up, a rampant and attractive Reds side that will only get better, an expanded and lengthened Super Rugby season, and then a Lions tour. Sevens coming into the Olympic Games. What goes around, comes around. Rugby will never be the monarch of Australian sports (at least, not until the mungoes merge with us) but it will always be here. It has been through far worse and survived.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
Thanks Wamberal for a fine and thought-stimulating post. I really enjoyed reading it.
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
Wamberal, that was an excellent read. Kudos to you sir.
farva
Vay Wilson (31)
What is the grass roots support like at the moment? That is where the battle will really rest to get rugby growing.
I have heard that we got down to as low as 90k registered players, but are back to more like 150k. If that is the case, then regardless of what the top teams are doing, rugby is in good shape.
I have heard that we got down to as low as 90k registered players, but are back to more like 150k. If that is the case, then regardless of what the top teams are doing, rugby is in good shape.
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