Christopher McDonald
Peter Burge (5)
These topics seem to always get manipulated, misconstrued and end up with very little to do with the initial point.
Clyde Rathbone
- Thread starter Christopher McDonald
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Christopher McDonald
Peter Burge (5)
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Arch Winning (36)
It's getting ridiculous because in your opening post you asked for our thoughts, we have given those thoughts, and now you are arguing with us about the validity thereof. I am naive enough to think that my thoughts are as valid as yours. I gave mine, and you disagree. That's the beauty of the internet.
But you asked for our thoughts, other posters have given their thoughts, you have your thoughts, and I think that reading posts where people contribute their piece and consider others are interesting. But asking for other people's thoughts is really only effective when you don't have a rigid mindset when you kick off a discussion OR you can see that other people may see things differently to you, and that's just groovy.
Just my two cents.
But you asked for our thoughts, other posters have given their thoughts, you have your thoughts, and I think that reading posts where people contribute their piece and consider others are interesting. But asking for other people's thoughts is really only effective when you don't have a rigid mindset when you kick off a discussion OR you can see that other people may see things differently to you, and that's just groovy.
Just my two cents.
At least as Australians we can be satisfied by the fact that our 2 cents are about 10% more valuable than Christopher McDonald's.
Spieber
Bob Loudon (25)
What is ridiculous with the notion that you opinion is almost universally disapproved on this forum?
MajorlyRagerly
Trevor Allan (34)
I don't think it's disapproved universally - I think there are factors in there which raise good points that are worthy of discussion, although I'm not quite at the level of disapproval in the original post.
In a black and white world, what is the point of international sport if the guys playing for an international team don't feel they are representing a country. I think this is the original point and it's a fair one.
The grey area is made up of all sort of things though not to be discounted easily - I get that as I was born in Southland, but moved north at 3, and would never ever call myself a south islander. So the whole moving to places as kids thing I get. I also understand that people may aspire to play for a team which they are eligible for even if they aren't motivated to represent that country. The appeals, from both a financial and a status point of view can not be discarded purely due to where you were born. There is something more special about being part of a Bledisloe cup, or NZ vs England encounter at Twickenham, than there is playing a lesser fixture for your own smaller, lesser ranked country (perhaps outside of world cups). If I was an excellent footballer, would I rather play for England of NZ? Reality, that's a tough question that me and my Donald Duck feet have never had to ponder.
But where I can't agree with Clyde is that I love a bit of patriotism in sport. I love the immense pride it brings in me being a kiwi when we do well in something. I love the way it lifts the country, love the way it makes me feel and I only feel that way as I know the guys doing it are a bunch of kiwi's as well. I would be hard pressed to feel that way if they all wrote things like Clyde has.
In a black and white world, what is the point of international sport if the guys playing for an international team don't feel they are representing a country. I think this is the original point and it's a fair one.
The grey area is made up of all sort of things though not to be discounted easily - I get that as I was born in Southland, but moved north at 3, and would never ever call myself a south islander. So the whole moving to places as kids thing I get. I also understand that people may aspire to play for a team which they are eligible for even if they aren't motivated to represent that country. The appeals, from both a financial and a status point of view can not be discarded purely due to where you were born. There is something more special about being part of a Bledisloe cup, or NZ vs England encounter at Twickenham, than there is playing a lesser fixture for your own smaller, lesser ranked country (perhaps outside of world cups). If I was an excellent footballer, would I rather play for England of NZ? Reality, that's a tough question that me and my Donald Duck feet have never had to ponder.
But where I can't agree with Clyde is that I love a bit of patriotism in sport. I love the immense pride it brings in me being a kiwi when we do well in something. I love the way it lifts the country, love the way it makes me feel and I only feel that way as I know the guys doing it are a bunch of kiwi's as well. I would be hard pressed to feel that way if they all wrote things like Clyde has.
T
Train Without a Station
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I find it interesting that the two players targeted here, Thorn and Rathbone are both players whose commitment, effort and professionalism in national colours have never been questioned. Unlike some other players who apparently project more pride in their nation.
AngrySeahorse
Peter Sullivan (51)
I agree but even in the theatre of war a lot of serving personnel had the same view as Rathbone. I wish I could remember the name of the fighter pilot & the documentary but there was an interesting point of view from a fallen spitfire pilot. He had sent a letter home the day before flying out to fight & he stated to his family in the letter that whilst England was a lovely country it was NOT worth dying for, the only thing that was worth dying for was his family & friends - he fought for them. To me, if that way of thinking is good enough for a brave spitfire pilot during wartime then it is good enough for a Rugby player like Rathbone playing the little old game of Rugby.
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
As a kiwi living in Aussie for the last 4 years or so, I've found myself re-thinking these kind of topics.
On one hand, I'm 'patriotic' than I ever was in NZ. I bought my first All Blacks jersey in Australia. I've considered getting the ol' Silver Fern sticker on the car. Bought a Blues jersey this year - and will probably buy one every year from now on. Things I'd probably not do back home but I'm proud of being a Kiwi and I like people knowing it.
On the other hand, I've also realised that NZ hasn't been as good to me and my family as Aussie has. We are far better off here and I've wondered if I 'love' NZ more than NZ loves me.I can't see us going home in the near future.
But at the end of the day, it's just sport. It's just a game and I'd prefer to judge a man by his character and his actions than by whatever motivations he may have to play a game of football.
On one hand, I'm 'patriotic' than I ever was in NZ. I bought my first All Blacks jersey in Australia. I've considered getting the ol' Silver Fern sticker on the car. Bought a Blues jersey this year - and will probably buy one every year from now on. Things I'd probably not do back home but I'm proud of being a Kiwi and I like people knowing it.
On the other hand, I've also realised that NZ hasn't been as good to me and my family as Aussie has. We are far better off here and I've wondered if I 'love' NZ more than NZ loves me.I can't see us going home in the near future.
But at the end of the day, it's just sport. It's just a game and I'd prefer to judge a man by his character and his actions than by whatever motivations he may have to play a game of football.
RoffsChoice
Jim Lenehan (48)
With Cummins, Tomane and CFS all so unreliable at the moment, would you consider bringing Rathbone up? His consistency at 11 would add quite a bit of starch in defence and his nous would help in attack.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Great post Bullrush.
Over the years I have lived overseas from time to time mostly around South East Asia, and mixing with the Expats, I find that they further they are from home, or the longer they have been "away", the more patriotic they seem to be, even if they have no intention of returning there in the short or long term.
Interesting.
Question - you don't have to answer if you don't want to.
What are your feelings about becoming an Australian Citizen?
For many Kiwis I know, this can be a major stumbling block.
Others are happy to be a bit kiwi, and a bit Aussie as the case suits.
Myself, as long as they don't barrack for England, NZ Aussies and Mozzies are most welcome to share a beer and have a yarn about how good we were back in the day.
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
@Hugh Jarse
I'd become an Aussie citizen tomorrow if I could. From what I've heard though, it isn't very easy for Kiwis and it costs quite a lot of money so maybe later down the track.
In all honesty though, the main reason for wanting an Aussie citizenship is simply because we don't plan on going home anytime soon. The special visas that Kiwis get coming here don't cover us for a lot of things and situations. For example, a lot of Kiwis were turned away last year in QLD after the floods for the special assistance that was available. It wasn't until the NZ Government stepped in that they were able to get the crisis assistance. My kids won't be able to get a HECS for future education etc etc.
My only concern is that some un-forseen event happens that really badly effects my kids (2 of whom were born here) and I'm left at the mercy of charity or the NZ government helping or something. We are insured and all that but as a father it niggles away at me in the back of my mind. If worse comes to worse we could always go home but Australia is where we call home now and I've already steeled myself for the day my son pulls on the Wallaby jersey or one of my girls is winning games for the Opals
I'd become an Aussie citizen tomorrow if I could. From what I've heard though, it isn't very easy for Kiwis and it costs quite a lot of money so maybe later down the track.
In all honesty though, the main reason for wanting an Aussie citizenship is simply because we don't plan on going home anytime soon. The special visas that Kiwis get coming here don't cover us for a lot of things and situations. For example, a lot of Kiwis were turned away last year in QLD after the floods for the special assistance that was available. It wasn't until the NZ Government stepped in that they were able to get the crisis assistance. My kids won't be able to get a HECS for future education etc etc.
My only concern is that some un-forseen event happens that really badly effects my kids (2 of whom were born here) and I'm left at the mercy of charity or the NZ government helping or something. We are insured and all that but as a father it niggles away at me in the back of my mind. If worse comes to worse we could always go home but Australia is where we call home now and I've already steeled myself for the day my son pulls on the Wallaby jersey or one of my girls is winning games for the Opals
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Funny that Bull, I was asked a couple of months back why I don't get Aus citizenship ( I been here since 96 so it pretty easy) by one of my mates and had to admit while I in no way knocking the country or the people, I just do not feel Australian ,so probably would not feel right to become a citizen. As I said I like the place, and generally the people but it didn't feel right. I generally support Aus teams against most teams apart from kiwi ones, though to be honest not with passion I do with any kiwi team. And I also add if I moved elsewhere or when I go home (which I know I will do) I am not sure it would worry me if wallabies won or lost so......
Probably a lot different if I had kids born here, mine live in other places so I am sure that makes a difference to, as I tend to support Italy up to a point as son lives there. I have not started buying AB jerseys etc since moving here, a; cause I'm an old bugger who thinks you have to earn them etc, and b; I really don't think I have become more of a kiwi supporter, as I was pretty strong before I came so was never going to change. The biggest difference is I probably support the Reds (not against NZ teams) and never would of donr that if not here. I have to admit I have no problems with Rathbone , QC (Quade Cooper) changing countries etc as I think you should probably represent the country of your choice for whatever reasons that make you tick!!
Probably a lot different if I had kids born here, mine live in other places so I am sure that makes a difference to, as I tend to support Italy up to a point as son lives there. I have not started buying AB jerseys etc since moving here, a; cause I'm an old bugger who thinks you have to earn them etc, and b; I really don't think I have become more of a kiwi supporter, as I was pretty strong before I came so was never going to change. The biggest difference is I probably support the Reds (not against NZ teams) and never would of donr that if not here. I have to admit I have no problems with Rathbone , QC (Quade Cooper) changing countries etc as I think you should probably represent the country of your choice for whatever reasons that make you tick!!
Aside from being able to vote, is there any other benefit for a New Zealander in becoming an Australian citizen?
Cat_A
Arch Winning (36)
@Braveheart81 There are, but the biggest I know of is accessing HECS for Uni education etc, and I think there are some (or most) Centrelink benefits that are only available for Aus citizens (or permanent residents, of which Kiwis are a special class).
Unless kiwis are full permanent residents (aka Aus citizens) they don't count on our unemployment stats and they can't get the dole. Don't believe Today Tonight...
Unless kiwis are full permanent residents (aka Aus citizens) they don't count on our unemployment stats and they can't get the dole. Don't believe Today Tonight...
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
I think being a citizen (dual citizen) might make it any easier to play for the Wobs. That may waive the need to qualify by 3 years residency.
The rules for Kiwis changed in about 2000. Kiwis no longer get access to Centrelink, Medicare, educational benefits like HECS/Fee Help or whatever it is called nowadays, like they used to.
While they are entitled to automatic visa free permanent residency, in most other areas they are treated the same as all other migrants. I think the new rules only apply to those who arrived after the rules changed in 2000 or so.
There are benefits to Aust Citizenchip for Kiwis.
I'm surprised that @Bullrush's 2 Australian born kids are not entitled to benefits of Australian Citizenship, even though the parents may not have citizenship. I thought any child born in Australia was automatically an Australian Citizen, unless there was special circumstances like Child of a Foreign Diplomat, or Defence Force or the like.
That is why the Government is so paranoid about moving pregnant Asylum Seekers off Australian Soil. The child then will not be entitled to Australian residency or citizenship, and therefore the parents are not entitled to any special treatment and the government can continue to treat them like a criminal.
The rules for Kiwis changed in about 2000. Kiwis no longer get access to Centrelink, Medicare, educational benefits like HECS/Fee Help or whatever it is called nowadays, like they used to.
While they are entitled to automatic visa free permanent residency, in most other areas they are treated the same as all other migrants. I think the new rules only apply to those who arrived after the rules changed in 2000 or so.
There are benefits to Aust Citizenchip for Kiwis.
I'm surprised that @Bullrush's 2 Australian born kids are not entitled to benefits of Australian Citizenship, even though the parents may not have citizenship. I thought any child born in Australia was automatically an Australian Citizen, unless there was special circumstances like Child of a Foreign Diplomat, or Defence Force or the like.
That is why the Government is so paranoid about moving pregnant Asylum Seekers off Australian Soil. The child then will not be entitled to Australian residency or citizenship, and therefore the parents are not entitled to any special treatment and the government can continue to treat them like a criminal.
Ahh. I knew that you could get the age pension in Australia (this is also reciprocal for Australians living in New Zealand.)
I think you can access Newstart Allowance if you arrived before some date in 2001. As with most things, Australia has become less generous to poor people over time.
On the upside, New Zealanders who are Australian tax residents can freely access all our middle class welfare so I guess they probably win out overall.
I think you can access Newstart Allowance if you arrived before some date in 2001. As with most things, Australia has become less generous to poor people over time.
On the upside, New Zealanders who are Australian tax residents can freely access all our middle class welfare so I guess they probably win out overall.
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
Thought I'd throw in the Saffer perspective. Once you get permanent residency you qualify for all benefits.
The main reason to get citizenship is the fact that travel becomes easier. Saffers need a visa for most European and some other countries and getting these is a pain in the arse although generally not an issue. Travel to the UK used to be Visa free but that's also changed recently. For the US it's a real pain in the butt, espesially if you are based here in Aus with a Saffer passport the US consulate treat you like you are some major jihad seeking criminal.
We took up citizenship as soon as we could for this reason and also because my kid was one year old when we arrived here so it hardly made sense not to do it.
Shifting allegiances, well that's a whole other topic. I am never quite sure of someone's motives if they suddenly start to support their adopted country over their country of birth. It's just odd but each one to their own. I know some Saffers who have done this and their argument that it is for their kid's sake. I've left it up to my kid and she supports both and when you ask her which she prefers she says neither.
Can you picture someone with a broad Aussie accent walking to Twickenham, Eden Park or Newlands clad in the local colors? It's a little bit odd but maybe that's just me.
The main reason to get citizenship is the fact that travel becomes easier. Saffers need a visa for most European and some other countries and getting these is a pain in the arse although generally not an issue. Travel to the UK used to be Visa free but that's also changed recently. For the US it's a real pain in the butt, espesially if you are based here in Aus with a Saffer passport the US consulate treat you like you are some major jihad seeking criminal.
We took up citizenship as soon as we could for this reason and also because my kid was one year old when we arrived here so it hardly made sense not to do it.
Shifting allegiances, well that's a whole other topic. I am never quite sure of someone's motives if they suddenly start to support their adopted country over their country of birth. It's just odd but each one to their own. I know some Saffers who have done this and their argument that it is for their kid's sake. I've left it up to my kid and she supports both and when you ask her which she prefers she says neither.
Can you picture someone with a broad Aussie accent walking to Twickenham, Eden Park or Newlands clad in the local colors? It's a little bit odd but maybe that's just me.
I never get the argument (mostly made by nationalistic bogans) that "you live in our country now you should support our team".
I don't see it as hypocrisy at all that someone can become an Australian citizen and still support their country of origin. I think our multiculturalism is an intrinsic part of our culture and people continuing to celebrate their origins is important to that.
You should definitely support Australia when we're not playing South Africa though
You should also adopt our sentiment of anyone but the English as well.
I don't see it as hypocrisy at all that someone can become an Australian citizen and still support their country of origin. I think our multiculturalism is an intrinsic part of our culture and people continuing to celebrate their origins is important to that.
You should definitely support Australia when we're not playing South Africa though
You should also adopt our sentiment of anyone but the English as well.
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