Chiefs V Waratahs, Hamilton

[waratahjesus]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

its about time, carter will unleash and red faces will be seen on the yellow scarf froums coming up with ways to discredit him.

in person carter is actually pretty fast, i just think it doesnt translate onto tv well, he is sorta like the hynes of the tahs.

 

[Epi]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

Bruce - I'd be interested to know where you think this (criticism of Carter) all comes from? It's not just on this site either.. Watch the game in any pub.

 

[Biffo]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

its about time, carter will unleash and red faces will be seen on the yellow scarf froums coming up with ways to discredit him.

in person carter is actually pretty fast, i just think it doesnt translate onto tv well, he is sorta like the hynes of the tahs.

Can someone please add the "Chariots of Fire" tune to this post?

 

[the gambler]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

Bruce - I'd be interested to know where you think this (criticism of Carter) all comes from? It's not just on this site either.. Watch the game in any pub.

We have been down this path too many times this season. Lets not do it again. My comment was one partially made in jest and should have included a :fishing, but as with all humour, its only funny when there is some element of truth to it. But Barnes is just playing to his teammates strengths. Carter's strength is his kick chase so why not kick it with him outside you. :fishing

 

[#1 Tah]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

its about time, carter will unleash and red faces will be seen on the yellow scarf froums coming up with ways to discredit him.

in person carter is actually pretty fast, i just think it doesnt translate onto tv well, he is sorta like the hynes of the tahs.

Can someone please add the "Chariots of Fire" tune to this post?

dodododododo.....dododododo......dodododododo.....dododododo....

 

[Groucho]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

its about time, carter will unleash and red faces will be seen on the yellow scarf froums coming up with ways to discredit him.

in person carter is actually pretty fast, i just think it doesnt translate onto tv well, he is sorta like the hynes of the tahs.

The main property Carter shares with Hynes is that his presence on the field increases the Reds' chance of winning.

 

[Hawko]

Although if Carter plays 12, Horne won't touch the ball anyway.

But Carter? WTF! The Tahs should be shooting for a bonus point here and they pick Superglue Tom at 12! He's the perfect player to close out a close match when in front but he's simply not creative enough to help the Tahs score four tries. We can only hope Barnes puts up a few of his specials for the outside backs to latch on to or throws cutout passes to Horne all day.

And would either of you like to tell us exactly how many times the ball was passed from 12 to 13 last week?

Or comment on how often the ball has gone through the hands to the wingers this season? And the jersey number of the player overwhelmingly responsible for the ball not getting wide other than off the boot?

Bruce, My comment was a throw away line which I now regret making because the meaning of my original post has been lost and we are back into a "hate Carter" session. I agree with gambler that its a path we don't need to go down again. Indeed it doesn't really encapsulate what is wrong with the Tahs backline anyway.

IMO the Tahs are playing with three backline gameplans. First and most obvious is Barnes kicks, often not very well. ,Second, Barnes runs and gets tackled, thirdly, Barnes pops a ball to Kurtley or Schmoo to run an angle. This is the most successful of the three, because of the element of surprise. That is pretty much it, although Phil has occasionally popped up at a flat 10 and thrown the ball one wider. Because it was such a shock, that also worked OK too. I refuse to believe that these are the only possible plays in the Tahs backline arsenal.

Its heresy I know, but you have to play with the team skills you have got. All players have weaknesses - Campese couldn't tackle but I'd select him tomorrow if I could. Carter isn't a very good ball player but he runs hard, chases and tackles well. Providing "pass to Carter" isn't the only play you have in the arsenal, he can be very useful. This series of posts has helped to clarify my thinking about the Tahs backline play. With the crew we have I think that our best combination is Hangers/Barnes at 10, Carter at 12, Horne at 13 and Beale at 15.

BUT, if Carter is at 12, doing what Carter does best, running defending and chasing kicks, then there has to be other points of attack. The Tah backline is very, very predictable. So there have to be other options like the cutout ball to 13, the pop ball to the blindside winger, the ball behind Carter who runs decoy allowing Beale to open up the lines from fullback. I don't remember once this season Hangers or Barnes chasing the ball on the runaround like Mark Ella used to. I reckon Mark was slower than Carter over 40m, but massively effective. My claim is that the Tah backline is not properly coached to do these things. I vividly remember the late 70's/early 80's Randwick backline operating on 30-40% possession and slaughtering teams because of the quality of the backline play. The Reds have done it this season. The problem is not the people but what they train to do each week, what they have been taught.

To come back to my original point however. The Waratahs forwards were smashed on the weekend. Fiddling with the backs is like protecting the rear while the Barbarians pour through the front door. This week everything should be about turning that around, getting a pack with some mongrel, learning to pick and drive in pods, smashing opponents in the tackle. Last Friday I felt like I did after the 96 point game against the Crusaders, it was excruciating. Once we have a pack going forward and hunting as a pack, then we can work on optimising the backline.

End of rant.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

I concur with the gambler and Hawko in their suggestion that we don't pursue this side issue to the thread any further. The problems with the franchise that we support are so deep seated and so pervasive top to bottom that nothing is to be gained by ridiculing a particular individual or the players collectively. I don't believe that they are the primary problem.

 

[Ash]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

How about we instead discuss how painful it is to see the typo in the thread title everytime I look at this thread?

Regarding the Tahs backs or attack coach, just who is it?

 

[Ash]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

To answer my own question, I guess it is Scott Wisemantle, the skills coach?

 

[Nusadan]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

How about we instead discuss how painful it is to see the typo in the thread title everytime I look at this thread?

To answer my own question, I guess it is Scott Wisemantle, the skills coach?

Seems you like to inflict pain on yourself for that matter...its WisemantEL...

 

[matty_k]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

How about we instead discuss how painful it is to see the typo in the thread title everytime I look at this thread?

To answer my own question, I guess it is Scott Wisemantle, the skills coach?

Seems you like to inflict pain on yourself for that matter...its WisemantEL...

It's important to self check your own spelling and grammar as getting it correct is its own reward.

 

[Jethro Tah]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

To answer my own question, I guess it is Scott Wisemantle, the skills coach?

Seems you like to inflict pain on yourself for that matter...its WisemantEL...

It's important to self check your own spelling and grammar as getting it correct is its own reward.

I wonder if Scott the Wiseman is as skilled at grammar as he is at skilling the Tah backs at passing/kicking?

 

[Langthorne]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

The spelling and grammar are depressing, but not nearly as depressing as the performance against the Highlanders.

Tom Carter and Rob Horne in the centres would be a formidable defensive unit. Carter will cart the ball up all day long. He is not a 'ball player' nor is he particularly fast - neither of these things matter if those around him step and and play their part.

Assuming the forwards step up, I would be very happy to see Tom Carter running a crash ball, and then the next phase Beale pops up at inside centre with Horne running for the gaps (with other variations as described by Hawko). The other option is to simply cut Carter out if you want to get the ball directly to Horne.

Barnes will need to be much more judicious with his kicking.

..but all of this assumes the forwards can sort out their stuff

 

[Nusadan]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

How about we instead discuss how painful it is to see the typo in the thread title everytime I look at this thread?

To answer my own question, I guess it is Scott Wisemantle, the skills coach?

Seems you like to inflict pain on yourself for that matter...its WisemantEL...

It's important to self check your own spelling and grammar as getting it correct is its own reward.

I call it a typo...

Touche (with an apostrophe above the 'e') though!!!!

 

[Groucho]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

How about we instead discuss how painful it is to see the typo in the thread title everytime I look at this thread?

To answer my own question, I guess it is Scott Wisemantle, the skills coach?

Seems you like to inflict pain on yourself for that matter...its WisemantEL...

It's important to self check your own spelling and grammar as getting it correct is its own reward.

I call it a typo...

Touche (with an apostrophe above the 'e') though!!!!

It's an accent, not an apostrophe.

 

[fatprop]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

I am trying to get my head around, the Tahs suggested selections.

Carter at 12 suggests a close channel direct, defensive plan

McCutcheon at 6 suggests an open game

 

[zeedok]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

It is with a heavy heart that I -- a desperate and obsessed Tahs fan -- have realised that we are, to put it bluntly, stuffed.

The Tahs have shown some glimpses of the team they could become (eg the Bulls, The Lions -- yeah I know, the blues and the cheetahs -- yeah I know x2). But when push comes to shove, with the exception of the Bulls game, they have reverted to the narrow, conservative, forward dominated kicking game (eg Crusaders, Reds, Brumbies).

It seems to me that the Waratahs performances this year have fallen into 3 groups, with some overlap:

1. The games they NEVER believed they were going to win -- aka "We're stuffed anyway, may as well throw it around"
- The Bulls -- they threw the ball from everywhere -- looked fantastic doing it, but still didn't win. Unfortunately this reinforces their mistrust of the running game. As soon as the running game isn't immediately successful (eg The Sharks) they abandon it asap.
2. The games they ALWAYS believed they were going to win -- aka "Alright, you pansies can throw it around if you like, we had it one when we pulled up in the carpark"
- The Lions -- not one penalty shot all night. They knew that a bucket of tries was just around the corner
- The Cheetahs
- The Blues -- yes, they are a good side, but with the exception of Auckland 2007, the Tahs have had 'em. Two tries scored in the first 10min
3. The games they REALLY wanted to win -- aka the Bryce Lawrence, "I think we've had enough f**king around here" -- let the forwards take over from you pansies
- The Reds
- The Brumbies
- The Stormers
- The Crusaders
- The Highlanders

The Tahs game is, unfortunately, very limited and really hasn't progressed much this year -- despite a few glimpses as I mentioned earlier.

My fear is that they will tighten up. I can just see Phil Waugh taking over -- "the seasons on the line, don't throw the ball around -- territory+++". Whether it is Barnes/Carter/Horne or Hangers/Carter/Horne or any combination of the above, they will choose -- in my opinion poorly -- to kick the leather off the ball (probably executing their kicks poorly like they did last weekend) looking for "TERRITORY" and Sivivatu, Muliaina and Co will counter attack from everywhere.

They will most likely lose -- they are a different team in NZ. But even if they win, they will not score a bonus point victory (because of the tight-game plan mentality) and will therefore probably just miss out on a finals spot.

Ultimately though -- let's get real -- even if they make the finals, they don't have the game to upset the Bulls or Stormers in SA. They'd be better off practicing the running game and developing for next year. The same old style hasn't worked before and ain't going to start working now.

 

[Moses]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

Robinson, Horne back to take on the Chiefs

The HSBC Waratahs have made a number of changes to the side which will take on the Chiefs at Hamilton’s Waikato Stadium on Saturday night, including the return to the starting line-up of Benn Robinson and Rob Horne.

In addition to Robinson and Horne who have not played since the round nine clash with the Crusaders, selectors have named Pat McCutcheon to make his run-on debut at blindside flanker while Luke Burgess also returns to the team as starting scrumhalf.

Positional changes will see Berrick Barnes start at flyhalf for the first time since round two, while Tom Carter and Rob Horne will pair up in the centres for the first time since round nine last year.

Head coach Chris Hickey said while the line-up takes on a distinctly different look to that which took the field last week, the changes were due to a combination of injury and strategy.

“Bringing players back the quality of Benn Robinson and Rob Horne will be a real boost,” said Hickey. “They’ve really worked hard to ensure they’re in the best possible shape for this match and we wouldn’t take them in to the game if they weren’t confident in their own ability to do the job.

“Pat McCutcheon provided a lot of energy when he came onto the park for his debut last week and his opportunity to earn a run-on cap at Super 14 level if probably overdue.

“Tommy Carter is also back to the position he has played most of his rep footy. It might seem like a big change to have different players in our 9, 10, 12 and 13 jerseys from what took the park last week, but in reality these guys have all played and trained a lot together.

“Tom has played outside Berrick for most of the season, and Rob played outside Tom as a 12-13 centre pairing for most of 2008 and 2009 so there will be no problem with those guys working together.”

2010 Super 14 – Round 13
CHIEFS v HSBC WARATAHS
Saturday 8 May 2010 (Kick-off 5:35pm AEST, 7:35pm NZT)
Waikato Stadium, Hamilton

HSBC WARATAHS
15. Kurtley Beale (Northern Suburbs)
14. Lachie Turner (Eastwood)
13. Rob Horne (Southern Districts)
12. Tom Carter (Sydney University)
11. Drew Mitchell (Balmain)
10. Berrick Barnes (Sydney University)
9. Luke Burgess (Sydney University)
8. Ben Mowen (Randwick)
7. Phil Waugh [c] (Sydney University)
6. Patrick McCutcheon (Sydney University)
5. Kane Douglas (Southern Districts)
4. Dean Mumm (Sydney University)
3. Al Baxter (Northern Suburbs)
2. Tatafu Polota-Nau (Parramatta)
1. Benn Robinson (Eastwood)
Reserves
16. Damien Fitzpatrick (Eastwood)
17. Dan Palmer (Southern Districts) / Jeremy Tilse (Sydney University)
18. Chris Thomson (Warringah)
19. Dave Dennis (Sydney University)
20. Josh Holmes (Warringah)
21. Daniel Halangahu (Sydney University)
22. Sosene Anesi (Eastern Suburbs)

I quite like the look of this squad, Holmes showed nothing so it's great to have Burgo back.. Carter punching it up at 12 and Horne blasting away at 13 is a pretty decent midfield, shame for Hangers as I don't think he's done much wrong this year though.

How the fuck does Anesi keep that 22 jersey?

 

[RugbyReg]

Re: Cheifs V Waratahs, Hamilton

is the Palmer/Tilse thing because Robinson is still not 100%?